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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:14:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

some do, yes. some get married for financial reasons. some even get married just to stay in this country. but not all.

now, let me ask you something. you are trying to gain acceptance from a generation in power that grew up before "free love". is it better to make baby steps towards your goal in the face of such opposition, or to stand there and cry..; i want it all right now or none at all?

tazzygirl.....as I posted earlier, the reason why I try to gain as complete acceptance as possible is for the simple sake of being treated equal to the rest of society. I have been around long enough to see the strides that has happened here in Canada and I knew it would not happen overnight. I have been involved in one form or another in the past 20+ yrs to fully understand that it takes time and a hell of a lot of work to gain what we have now. My generation had to take baby steps to gain a measure of equality a little at a time. The younger generation needs to follow our example to gradually gain more that we weren't able to achieve yet.

eta: don't forget that it took many years for women had the right to vote, many years before women were even recognized as more than second class citizens: the fight for equality for the LGBT community is no different.

< Message edited by beargonewild -- 5/27/2009 8:20:28 PM >

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:17:11 PM

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hardly Anne

my best friend in high school lost his life from a bullet to his head all because he was gay. my closest cousin is also gay, though, i shouldnt have to put up a list of those i know are gay, or prove myself based upon this post. if you are referring to the idea that gay people have no place within gorean society... i stand by that. i dont live in a gorean society.

you should also know by most posts there, Aynne, that i dont always follow the party line... guess thats why im so loved. in fact, Master and i had a disagreement about this matter just yesterday when we discussed the California ruling.

as i explained to him, and will try to do so for you, its my opinion that this isnt based upon gaining the equal benefits afforded to heterosexual couples. if it is, please, explain to me what rights/benefits you are referring too?

for those who are saying no in votes as well as vocally and through legislation, it is about religion, in part. its also being voted on by a generation whose roots and deep in religion, whatever religion they so desire to follow. the younger generation, not so much.

again, its not fair. but, as someone once told me... a fair is a place where pigs win ribbons. as far as how many more baby steps must they take... i dont know. how long did women fight for the equalities they now have? and how much longer will they have to fight for more? again, i dont know.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:19:04 PM

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i so completely agree, bear. so, my feeling is this.. take the civil union.. get the benefits you should have if all things were fair and equal.. then push for more. the more you can gain, and hold on too, the more your fight will gain ground and hold water.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to beargonewild)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:20:26 PM

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Ok, lets be realistic here. For those of us comparing the civil rights movement in the 60's to the gay rights struggle... F. First of all, gays are not beaten down by the police for protesting, dogs are not set on them, and they are not sprayed down with fire hoses. It is illegal to discriminate against gays when it comes to jobs, housing or education. Gays can attend the same schools and go to the same public property as heterosexuals. And to say the country was founded on people fighting for what they want... well that's true, but if you remember, that's because they couldn't vote for it.... remember the slogan "taxation without representation" from elementary school? And for the fact that Western Europe is more liberal... in France, muslims are banned from wearing hijabs in public places... in Turkey, Islam is descriminated against just so that they can get entry into the EU.
As for solutions, I think it is first important to realize that marraige was originally a religious institution, to make a union holy in the eyes of God. If you TRULY want a solution to the problem, a good idea would be to stop bashing the people who have the power to change the laws... people don't like being called stupid.
What has been proposed by some, and what I think is a viable solution, is to grant all couples, hetero or homo, civil unions sactioned by the state. Marriage will no longer be state sactioned. Hetero and homo unions will be equal under the eyes of the law. Marraige could be a seperate entity, performed by a religious faction, or some non-religious faction if you just seek the symbology. As for the take up arms talk?? Just stupid... what percentage of the strongest military in the world do you think would sympathize with gay people with guns?

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:22:36 PM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

not really, kittin

until the judges who are old are off the benches... until the population that accepts the idea (or doesnt care about homosexuals being married) are of an age and a desire to vote for such... it wont happen. do i like it? nope.. not one bit.

but its sorta like the ERA... some of you may remember that. women gained alot through that initative... that failed. it never passed, for many reasons. i dont recall any woman who was foolish enough to say... I dont want the rights it gained me.. I would rather have the bill passed.

my point is this. if you cant gain entrance through the front door... sometimes a backdoor slink... grins

State Senator Kay O'Connor from none other than Kansas. No kidding, does not think that women should be allowed to vote.

http://www.equityfeminism.com/articles/2001/kansas-state-senator-womens-suffrage-is-a-symptom-of-a-sick-society/

While not the ERA you are refering to, I doubt that she would support that either.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:25:27 PM

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chuckles

perhaps she is a slave at home

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Aylee)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:25:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

i so completely agree, bear. so, my feeling is this.. take the civil union.. get the benefits you should have if all things were fair and equal.. then push for more. the more you can gain, and hold on too, the more your fight will gain ground and hold water.

Yet you have the option of a civil union or a religious union. Why can't a gay man like myself have that same choice? Why should we have to settle for one recourse? What about the gays who are religious and want a church ceremony because a marriage under God is part of their belief system? Why should a gay man who is Jewish have to have a civil union and not a ceremony in a synagogue?

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Do Not Rile da Chosen Bear

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That I’m all yours what you waiting for?

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(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:30:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

Ok, lets be realistic here. For those of us comparing the civil rights movement in the 60's to the gay rights struggle... F. First of all, gays are not beaten down by the police for protesting, dogs are not set on them, and they are not sprayed down with fire hoses.

If you read on the cause of the Stonewall riots, you will see that the riots were a result of a segment of the LGBT population who were beaten by police and harassed by the police before they protested against this by rioting in the streets. So this statement of yours isn't entirely correct.

_____________________________

Do Not Rile da Chosen Bear

Promiscuous boy you already know
That I’m all yours what you waiting for?

Resident MANWHORE ~1000 Bear pts~

10 NZ points
Whips~n~Cuffs

(in reply to nelly33)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:31:02 PM

Posts: 96
Joined: 8/17/2008
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quote:

ave the option of a civil union or a religious union. Why can't a gay man like myself have that same choice? Why should we have to settle for one recourse? What about the gays who are religious and want a church ceremony because a marriage under God is part of their belief system? Why should a gay man who is Jewish have to have a civil union and not a ceremony in a synagogue?

because a synagogue is not required to separate church and state... you cannot force the United States to make the Jewish faith recognize gay marriage... that is an issue to take up with the Jewish faith, not the United States.

(in reply to SadieSaid)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:31:30 PM

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because, bear, until the powers that be change... its a long battle. its better to wait for the word "marriage" to be applied?

quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

FR

im a tad bit confused. is it the phrase that homosexuals desire... marriage.. or the benefits?

seems to me most gay people want the trimmings that are afforded to a hetero couple.. insurance ect.

now, i see most are willing to fight over a term rather than go for the benefits they seek. just makes no sense to me

No that is sheer bullshit....we want to be given the same rights which a hetero couple have when they get married. Let me ask this: do heterosexual couple get married just to take advantage of the benefits to being married?????

and you havent explained what rights you are referring too

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to beargonewild)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:33:29 PM

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

quote:

ave the option of a civil union or a religious union. Why can't a gay man like myself have that same choice? Why should we have to settle for one recourse? What about the gays who are religious and want a church ceremony because a marriage under God is part of their belief system? Why should a gay man who is Jewish have to have a civil union and not a ceremony in a synagogue?

because a synagogue is not required to separate church and state... you cannot force the United States to make the Jewish faith recognize gay marriage... that is an issue to take up with the Jewish faith, not the United States.

seperation of church and state was an idea to keep the state out of the church. we cannot legislate religion as long as said religion doesnt break federal laws.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to nelly33)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:35:14 PM

Posts: 96
Joined: 8/17/2008
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I do know of the stonewall riots... and although heavy handed tactics were used by police... and they were rough with the patrons... the clubgoers did further escalate things by throwing beer bottles and coins at the police... also, this one incident caused widespread concern and national attention... while attacks on blacks was an everyday thing... although the Stonewall incident may not be the only example of brutality on gays, the fact that there is a name for it, and that specific incident is often cited shows how different the gay struggle is from the black one in the sixties.

(in reply to beargonewild)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:37:46 PM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

As for solutions, I think it is first important to realize that marraige was originally a religious institution, to make a union holy in the eyes of God.

No.

Marriage was originally a civil contract. It was an exchange of property. Does the word "bride-price" ring a bell for you? Women were the porperty being exchanged. They were also used to seal political alliances.

Later, the Catholic Church made it into a sacrament. Now, this was STILL a government function, as the Catholic Church was, for all intents and purposes, THE government.

Does anyone know what happened next?

Henry VIII wanted a divorce.

And so the movement of the institution of marriage began is march back to secular authority. But since it was still performed by members of the clergy (and ship captains ~ which I have never figured out), it has retained its sacrament status. But it is still a civil contract, note that you need a license from the state to validate your marriage.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to nelly33)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:39:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

chuckles

perhaps she is a slave at home

That's really sinister. Brrrr.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:39:21 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

Ok, lets be realistic here. For those of us comparing the civil rights movement in the 60's to the gay rights struggle... F. First of all, gays are not beaten down by the police for protesting, dogs are not set on them, and they are not sprayed down with fire hoses. It is illegal to discriminate against gays when it comes to jobs, housing or education. Gays can attend the same schools and go to the same public property as heterosexuals. And to say the country was founded on people fighting for what they want... well that's true, but if you remember, that's because they couldn't vote for it.... remember the slogan "taxation without representation" from elementary school? And for the fact that Western Europe is more liberal... in France, muslims are banned from wearing hijabs in public places... in Turkey, Islam is descriminated against just so that they can get entry into the EU.
As for solutions, I think it is first important to realize that marraige was originally a religious institution, to make a union holy in the eyes of God. If you TRULY want a solution to the problem, a good idea would be to stop bashing the people who have the power to change the laws... people don't like being called stupid.
What has been proposed by some, and what I think is a viable solution, is to grant all couples, hetero or homo, civil unions sactioned by the state. Marriage will no longer be state sactioned. Hetero and homo unions will be equal under the eyes of the law. Marraige could be a seperate entity, performed by a religious faction, or some non-religious faction if you just seek the symbology. As for the take up arms talk?? Just stupid... what percentage of the strongest military in the world do you think would sympathize with gay people with guns?

I have more than a few gay friends... every one I know has been beaten sometime in their life for their gayness...some more than once...especially the men. Tell them how easy they have had it in life because of the sexual orientation.

If you think that gays are not discriminated against in jobs housing and education dispite unenforceable laws... then you are not gay.

What you must remember is there are gay blacks and Latinos that are discriminated in general... then discriminated more within their communities because of their gayness...double the hell. Even in the days when police dogs were biting the backs of civil rights marches those very same people were discriminating against gays…inside and outside of their race.

Trying to tie the word marriage to religion is not good thinking... You realize how many people in this country get married outside of a religious ceremony?

Do you respect the marriages of other religions…will then lets have a homosexual religion…make it tax except then let them marry other gays. This makes as much sense as your marriage and religion argument.

Butch

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:40:18 PM

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you do realize marriage predates recorded history, yes?

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Aylee)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:40:18 PM

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ummm... so you consider a marriage where the woman is considered property to be a real marriage? maybe in name, but i wouldn't compare that to the institution of marriage that we have now.

(in reply to Aylee)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:41:50 PM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

i so completely agree, bear. so, my feeling is this.. take the civil union.. get the benefits you should have if all things were fair and equal.. then push for more. the more you can gain, and hold on too, the more your fight will gain ground and hold water.

Yet you have the option of a civil union or a religious union. Why can't a gay man like myself have that same choice? Why should we have to settle for one recourse? What about the gays who are religious and want a church ceremony because a marriage under God is part of their belief system? Why should a gay man who is Jewish have to have a civil union and not a ceremony in a synagogue?

So that he has to pay the fee for the license to the state.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to beargonewild)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:43:02 PM

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Joined: 8/17/2008
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ummm... it doesn't make sense because no other religious marriages are tax exempt, so why would gay marriages? and i didn't say that gays had it easy, i just said that it would be wrong to compare their plight to that of the people involved in the civil rights movement. and also, that civil union/marriage argument is not MY idea... it's one you would find in scholarly journals if you are actually interested in finding a solution that may actually happen, rather than what you want in an ideal world

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/27/2009 8:51:01 PM

Aylee

Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

you do realize marriage predates recorded history, yes?

I do not think that there is a record to prove that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

ummm... so you consider a marriage where the woman is considered property to be a real marriage? maybe in name, but i wouldn't compare that to the institution of marriage that we have now.

Okay. . . I have no idea where you got that from what I wrote. I said that marriage was originally a civil contract, showed where the "sacrement" part came in, and yet stayed a civil contract, and where religious authority over marriage left, leaving it a civil contract, yet performed by clergy.

In one sentence: Marriage has always been a civil contract, not a religious sacrement as you claim.

The status of women was not the point. Or are you being obtuse?

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

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