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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 10:32:45 AM   
Hardbutt


Posts: 78
Joined: 3/16/2005
Status: offline 		It is nice to see that Lockit has developed her friendly reputation by not being cynical. All the jaded women seem to drive off the potentially nice guys before they can find out about each other. Don't assume that one man is like 'every other man' unless you have given up on 'all of them'.

Everyone expects something for their service efforts, even Mother Teresa knew her rewards were coming. The OP's gentleman was probably happy to help because it was a chance for him to get to know her. There are many women who I have helped with no expectation of sex in return because I LIKED her, nothing else. Liking her is something that happened over time because of all the usual reasons one person likes another. If I don't like her, why the heck would I want to hang around with her? If I don't get a smile and a thank you, a 'let's meet again' then its over. There are many women in my life with whom I have never had sex and never will, but to help them is pleasure because they are nice to be around. That's all that's needed for a lot of men, some women will attract these men.

When I have met (the few I have) on CM, we met to meet. We realized common interests. We realized similar senses of humor. We wanted to know if we could become friends. I would never go "serve" some woman who is gonna bitch about everything and offer not a thing in return... I can find that easily enough anywhere in the vanilla world and on any forum. In the vanilla world there are plenty of women who can accept a helpful relationship without sex, although dinner is nice gesture of thanks. Mowing the grass, fixing a car or washing machine, surely that is worth something. Like everybody here, I have my preferences and hopefully they will complement someone else's who I will meet. I don't ask for much, but what I do ask for is specific. Don't blame the world if you are the odd one. Search with optimism.

Of course there is an element of sexual tension between people here on CM... just look at this site! If you deny that, then you have a poor grasp on reality. The servants' interests might not be ones you can recognize, but no matter how thin you slice it, this lifestyle interest is made of both sex and power exchange. Everybody has their own interpretation of how it works. There are very few people on CM that are not interested in some aspect of sexual expression ( I don't dare say "none" as that would become the only point of rebuttal to my post) even if it is just to fuel their fantasies. Everybody has them.

So to think that someone would come and serve you and not get ANYTHING out of the experience is ridiculous. What that person 'gets' out of it might be something you can''t understand, but they did it for a reason. If you can't understand, then the problem is easy to pinpoint.

And the ones willing to serve without sex will eventually find someone happy to accept them - A Friend. Don't expect anything from a friend other than friendship and you will suffer fewer disappointments.

(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 10:34:55 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Housebitch,

You are trapped in and by a few things.

I don't really "do" poly but I was a while back and I found some of it crippling for me ( I am ONLY talking about how it works for me) in that how do you tell two women they are THE most beautiful women in the world, or THE most special, or THE most anything?

I know some of your friends and I know you through them.  Every time you talk about how HOT this or that vanilla chick is and how you would do ANYTHING for that "hot vanilla girl" you in in some sense telling the women who care about you that they are not hot, not young enough, not whatever enough.   Just food for thought.

That said, you are hot and have a lot to offer a dominant woman (if you actually considered them as people rather than as fetish delivery devices)  but what happens when you start to get older and are not so hot?  What then?  None of these "hot vanilla girls" are going to want you and you are going to be a very lonely old pervert with nobody to play with.

Setting aside the "what is service" debate in a sense and look at this in a broader way.  You are in many ways trading "this service for  that particular fetish" and paying for it.  What about stepping back from the hot fantasies a second and take a look at what it is that drives you at your core.  Are you really happy with the arrangement?  You get your cock served but what about your heart?  What if you found someone who would kick your balls but the next day wanted you to wear a tux, be a handsome date and escort her to dinner, could you do that? 

I see no depth, no complexity in what you are doing.  Where is the other side of you?  With female submissives we like to play that they are "just a hole" but somewhere implicit in that is "you are MY hole" ....  I realize male submissives are wired differently but I am curious, given the above, can you imagine and describe what a whole relationship would even look like?  If not, you might want to think about what that means and what that implies for you as a person now and tomorrow.

(in reply to housebitch)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 10:51:21 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		SM,

This thread started off nicely black and white, before people started introducing shades of grey.  Then the black-and-whiters regrouped and beat off the shades-of-greyers.  Now you and Hardbutt are making it all complicated again.  Shame! 

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 11:01:01 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite
peon, you were one of the guys on that thread who said that doing a favour for a woman you're attracted to feels the same as helping a neighbor or male friend, unless she expresses D/s.


It was I who said that and I sense some elaboration will help.

I have different centers of feelings or components that create different wants and needs. I see service to be an activity that spans multiple components. Service carries appeal for masochism if it creates a feeling of being subservient. Service allows an opportunity to express appreciation for those I appreciate for my social component. Service provides an opportunity for gratification that can be had by helping others for my spiritual component. Service carries appeal for my ego-related component for how I might feel about myself as a result of service I provide.

A desire for service can also come from a desire to ingratiate or earn good favor, which could come from an objective or lack of esteem. I have no idea where to place this motivation with respect to the components I list above ;-) I expect it comes from the ego-related component.

The masochistic component is specific to submissives. All others apply to people in general. How much the latter three components create a desire for acts of service varies with pesronality. Sexual preference and personality are independent traits. I expect to see selfishness and compassion distributed across all orientations, it is not specific to submissives.

That I am a submissive does not mean I do not help neighbors or others for sake of helping. For those familiar with the five lanugages of expressing appreciation, acts of service is one of my modes of expressing appreciation. When I help others in a vanilla context, it comes from the vanilla components. When I say that it is not different from helping a neighbor, I do not mean that there is no value of helping a neighbor but that the motivations and gratifications are the same as helping a neighbor. The point that I try to emphasize via that statement is that if there is a difference between acts of service extended to a neighbor versus a dominant, what is that difference?

If one expects acts of service to come from the non-masochistic, vanilla components then one should form expectations that one could have in a non-masochistic vanilla setting. A half hour of time to help move computer equipment can easily come from vanilla components, eight hours of yard work not as much. If the expectation for an act of service is what one could expect in a vanilla setting, fair enough. If it is not and it is relying on however much motivation to come from whatever is specific to submissives versus vanilla persons, then I think that motivation needs to be touched. I do not say that it must be touched a specific way but that it should be touched for that motivation to stay alive. If the motivation is not touched or fed, this motivation will go away. And if the situation is such that vanilla motivations are not enough, then the desire to be of service will go away.

I sometimes sense that people want to receive service from service submissives without providing any energy in return, an idea with which I have difficulty. It's like, there, I've said the word service submissive so that should be enough motivation.

And sometimes the statements in such discussions suggest that a service submissive is wrong for wanting an energy return, or to expect that the experience might bring him gratification through whatever means, with which I also have difficulty.

To me the situation is similar to the objection sometimes dommes raise; there is not an effort to understand why the service submissive enjoys providing the service and what might make the experience positive for him.

In a situation that relies on some of the motivation to come from the submissive component, I do not say that a domme must do a specific thing like dress in a given way or carry a whip. I simply say that it is important to understand the motivation and touch that motivation for it to sustain. After having understood the motivation, I do not say that the domme must feed that motivation. It is then for her to decide how she feels about that motivation and whether the situation is a compatible one. However, if she does not touch the motivation, it is fair for the submissive to feel unsatisfied or see the situation as an incompatible one. My statements in the other thread and this thread rest upon this philosophy.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 11:15:20 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

And sometimes the statements in such discussions suggest that a service submissive is wrong for wanting an energy return, or to expect that the experience might bring him gratification through whatever means, with which I also have difficulty.

Sea


Why should you have difficulty with that?  If someone says " I am going to do nothing for you" and you accept, then you can't complain if they deliver on their end of the agreement.

However, I would agree that with such limited "bait" they are not going to get a lot of genuine interest, most of it will come from those with hidden agendas and the resultant drama.  That is why I do not accept service; real or imagined, I always sense a hidden agenda in such offerings.

And trust me, I know ALL about hidden agendas.  It was all about who I used to be and I still struggle with it in some sense.  And oddly enough, I think this thread just showed me both what they are, why I keep them hidden, and explains certain abrasive behaviors of mine...reminds me of that old Chinese curse, may you live in interesting times.

(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 11:22:02 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		People are always confusing you and me.  They should remember you're the one with the hat and legs that are so amazingly elastic that you can bend your feet right up to your chest.

Random thoughts:

Honestly, being a 'service sub'now looks like more of a headache than it's worth, sometimes.  I think I'd rather stick to helping out of general niceness or fairly standard, vanilla-style grovelling to a woman I find attractive.  As previously mentioned - and with Andalusite - I'll let the service-sub stuff develop later, when it's comfortably set within the context of an already developing relationship. 

I wouldn't want a kink satisfied for mending a woman's computer, but I'd notice if she didn't offer me a cup of tea.  

Hell, I want to keep things human.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 11:23:04 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		You're getting the idea, Peon! 

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]



(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 11:23:10 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		Speaking of service versus favors, and that service submissives also do acts of service outside of submission alone, another misconception I sometimes encounter is that people think any act of service I do must be providing me submissive gratification.

For example, I am grateful to a local couple who opens up their home to host a party each month. They ask for volunteers for help set up, and for volunteers for clean up. From time to time, I help with the clean up so as to lessen the effort for them to host. When I do so, I am doing to be helpful or thoughtful, not because I am finding submissive headspace in the act.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to undergroundsea)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 11:26:26 AM   
Venatrix


Posts: 2238
Joined: 11/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

People are always confusing you and me.  They should remember you're the one with the hat and legs that are so amazingly elastic that you can bend your feet right up to your chest.

Random thoughts:

Honestly, being a 'service sub'now looks like more of a headache than it's worth, sometimes.  I think I'd rather stick to helping out of general niceness or fairly standard, vanilla-style grovelling to a woman I find attractive.  As previously mentioned - and with Andalusite - I'll let the service-sub stuff develop later, when it's comfortably set within the context of an already developing relationship. 

I wouldn't want a kink satisfied for mending a woman's computer, but I'd notice if she didn't offer me a cup of tea.  

Hell, I want to keep things human.


For that post, I'll even throw in a couple of homemade biscuits.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 11:30:36 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		V, you BAKE???  Whoa!  When can I come visit?

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]



(in reply to Venatrix)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 11:30:48 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Why should you have difficulty with that?


I meant it differently.

I was referring to difficulty I have with objections I see in discussions to the idea that a submissive might wish for the experience to be rewarding.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 11:32:54 AM   
Venatrix


Posts: 2238
Joined: 11/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

V, you BAKE???  Whoa!  When can I come visit?


Here's a (no longer) little secret about me:  I once wanted to be a professional pastry chef.

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 11:34:32 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Venatrix
For that post, I'll even throw in a couple of homemade biscuits.


Actually, forget the tea.  You've spent too long in the USA and I don't want to have to write half a page of instructions on tea-making as well as fix a computer.  However, I'll put up with cookies if you can't find any biscuits.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to Venatrix)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 11:36:35 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

V, you BAKE???  Whoa!  When can I come visit?


Here's a (no longer) little secret about me:  I once wanted to be a professional pastry chef.


My mom, too.  Her pastry crust is perfect because she can't stand TOUCHING things.  Me, I specialize in meats.  Need a roast?  Come  on down!  You can do the yorkshires.

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]



(in reply to Venatrix)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 11:43:11 AM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
People are always confusing you and me. 


I bet you feel flattered :p

quote:

I think I'd rather stick to helping out of general niceness or fairly standard, vanilla-style grovelling to a woman I find attractive.  As previously mentioned - and with Andalusite - I'll let the service-sub stuff develop later, when it's comfortably set within the context of an already developing relationship.


Not everyone is wired for service submission for sake of feeling subservient. For some people, acts of service come primarily from the vanilla components.

I can enjoy a relationship based on service based on subservience. The flavor of that relationship would be different from one that has a broader basis.

quote:

I wouldn't want a kink satisfied for mending a woman's computer, but I'd notice if she didn't offer me a cup of tea.  


I agree that that scenario can easily fall under simply being nice and helpful, and niceties that belond in such interactions are then important from both sides. There is lots more to say but in short, these interactions are complex because of how the context influences from where they originate.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 5/30/2009 11:46:38 AM >

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 11:54:52 AM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardbutt

It is nice to see that Lockit has developed her friendly reputation by not being cynical. All the jaded women seem to drive off the potentially nice guys before they can find out about each other. Don't assume that one man is like 'every other man' unless you have given up on 'all of them'.



(Picking petals off a petally flower)  He likes me... he likes me not... he likes me... he likes me not... 

When I am jaded it is with good reason and doesn't extend to every man.  I do not wish to be compared to other dominants as I am different than they are.  That doesn't mean one is wrong and the other right.  It simply means different.  I like to give that same consideration to men.  How I conduct myself can be quite forthright as Lockit see's it and how someone might perceive that is how they see it.  Thank god the world is round... so we can go round and round in a cycle it seems.

See quick answers may indeed sound jaded or critical or anything else one might be on any given day or moment.  I have been all things.  You want to know if I really am jaded or critical or whatever... one is best off to read my profile and get to know me.  If one comes off as a wanker, seeking attention, trollish, angry with women, manipultive... I can be many things including cynical.  You want to evaluate who and what I am... read every post, profile and journal for the last two years.  Or hell... actually get to know me!  What a concept! 

But since you haven't done that... I do have to wonder... does he like me or does he not? lol  Compliment or dig... lol

(This could be a tad bit cynical!  I think I may need to come with a disclaimer, especially in my morning hours!)

_____________________________

No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!


(in reply to Hardbutt)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 12:12:37 PM   
Venatrix


Posts: 2238
Joined: 11/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I don't want to have to write half a page of instructions on tea-making as well as fix a computer. 


I wouldn't worry about it, given that chances of your either repairing my computer or having a cup of tea with me are somewhere between "slim" and "none."

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 12:49:49 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Using fast reply......

I still think that a lot of guys are not getting that, it isn't that the dominant women do not want to do kinky things, or a guarantee that they won't. What it is, is that they do not want that to be the MAIN FOCUS or reason for the service. They kinda like it to be their idea, their choice.

I think this particular disconnect come most strongly in the difference between genders. While I have dealt with this same problem with people online that have female profiles, the odds have it that only a percentage of them are, in fact, female. I believe that men do tend to be more kink/sexually driven which is strongly tied to their submission and service. They want some sort of guaranteed payout for their efforts. In essence, they still want to be able to dominate the relationship. I will serve you however you want, as long as I get my kink on.

There seems to be less grasp of the fact that they are dealing with women that are going to be in control. And unlike a large number of men, these women are going to be less willing to settle for anything less that what works for them. Even if it means being without a submissive.

As Michael said, it may work for these guys while they are still young and hot looking, but add 20-30 years, and all that entails, it's not going to work anymore. Then they are going to be sitting behind a computer whining about being alone and professing their past experience at excellent service. The reality is their experience was as a kinky bottom, being eye candy for some hot young woman. If that woman was dominant, she has probably moved on to a man, or men, that really got it. Or, she just kept trading them in for younger, hotter, eye candy. Because like it or not, hetro dominant women are able to do that. If they want to.........

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Venatrix)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 12:58:31 PM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Me, I specialize in meat s


Hear that boys???? This one's a keeper...

me, i dabble in meat, and can only handle one at a time....

_____________________________

Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 1:04:33 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		LOL...

_____________________________

No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!


(in reply to lronitulstahp)
Profile   Post #: 80
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