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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 5:06:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
What gets me most is the difference between vanilla and BDSM, with friends there is no thought of "tit for tat" you do help them because they need help and you are in a position where you can help, when it comes to BDSM it is often shocking how many of the so called adoring submissives expect compensation for something they claim is a kink of theirs anyway.

I have not had success putting to words what I see to be the difference between the two scenarios.

I think doing something to help someone to be nice as we do in vanilla situations, and doing something as a service for sake of D/s are two different scenarios.

If what a domme is expecting a submissive to come do is something friends should do for each other, why are her friends not doing it? Or if to provide service is simply a good gesture unrelated to D/s, why are dommes not cleaning for subs? I mean, my garage needs some serious organizing. I am seeking domme volunteers to come help me. Aww c'mon, if all that work is done for me, I'll be less stressed and will have more energy as well as more time for play. Any takers?

;-)

I consider service one of my kinks. However, there is something that lies in the minds and in the dynamic and energy that makes it a kink--it is not to simply to go through the motions. That is, for most people it is not the act of pushing a machine that sucks things in over a carpet (vacuuming) that is a kink, but what this act represents. And reciprocation towards such a person would be whatever adds to what that act represents.

I have never asked someone to act a certain way in order for me to provide service. With someone who relates to service the same way I do, there would not be a need to ask and I would feel engaged naturally. Also, what motivates service and why I find it rewarding varies with the dynamic and interpersonal chemistry. However, if I do not feel engaged, I think it is fair of me to not want to continue to provide service.

As I reflect on experiences where there was a desire by a domme for me to continue to serve but I did not feel the same way, it was based on how I felt, which was a sum of interpersonal chemistry and D/s energy. Neither is black and white but grey. My satisfaction in a dynamic depends on how the two add up. I have had cases where the interpersonal chemistry was mostly responsible for how I felt. I have had cases where the D/s energy was mainly responsible for how I felt.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 5:06:53 PM

subtlebutterfly

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this's so true

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(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 5:09:04 PM

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I would love to clean your garage, Sea. I specialize in imposing order on chaos! But, if I do something like that Slavekal will revoke my DomlyDom card!

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(in reply to subtlebutterfly)

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 5:10:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

. I simply say that it is important to understand the motivation and touch that motivation for it to sustain. After having understood the motivation, I do not say that the domme must feed that motivation. It is then for her to decide how she feels about that motivation and whether the situation is a compatible one.

**THIS point as well as the one you made about thinking that if a service sub says they are one then they should just do things and that is enough
are VERY GOOD POINTS...INDEED

A Domme must see what DRIVES the submission or it becomes misuse of consensual use..
IN a D/s realtionship it is clearer...but I think a lot of problems come in temp. situations..or wanting to serve for sake of serving but encountering women who simply
hear 'service" and make use of it just because..

...Similar to the ones who say "on your knees" because you have said you are a sub..

I am not sure if this is clear...
I had a friend who was a service sub and invariably at munchs etc...when he said this he would hear
"well come and do my dishes tomorrow"
but with no idea..of the dynamic needed for him as well..

GQ

< Message edited by GYPZYQUEEN -- 5/30/2009 5:22:54 PM >

(in reply to undergroundsea)

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 5:18:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I would love to clean your garage, Sea. I specialize in imposing order on chaos! But, if I do something like that Slavekal will revoke my DomlyDom card!

See now, i'm confused i thought you specialized in something else...(see post #79)

_____________________________

Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 5:19:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
What gets me most is the difference between vanilla and BDSM, with friends there is no thought of "tit for tat" you do help them because they need help and you are in a position where you can help, when it comes to BDSM it is often shocking how many of the so called adoring submissives expect compensation for something they claim is a kink of theirs anyway.

I have not had success putting to words what I see to be the difference between the two scenarios.

I think doing something to help someone to be nice as we do in vanilla situations, and doing something as a service for sake of D/s are two different scenarios.

If what a domme is expecting a submissive to come do is something friends should do for each other, why are her friends not doing it? Or if to provide service is simply a good gesture unrelated to D/s, why are dommes not cleaning for subs? I mean, my garage needs some serious organizing. I am seeking domme volunteers to come help me. Aww c'mon, if all that work is done for me, I'll be less stressed and will have more energy as well as more time for play. Any takers?

;-)

Simple answer, if you are not willing to act like a friend without strings, I am not interested in your "submission", I'm not a domming machine or a fulfiller of fantasies, to engage with somebody in any type of BDSM there has to be mutual sympathy. Now if you say your biggest kink is to clean my kitchen, I am fine with that but I will expect you to do it, if it is not your kink, then don't claim it is. Simple?

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to undergroundsea)

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 5:21:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
If I fly to another city to meet someone off the internet the first time, I expect ONE THING.......to meet them. Period. If someone flies here to meet me they are guaranteed ONE THING........to meet me.

Anyone that expects anything more is an idiot.

Sure, I share your philosophy that the question about compatibility and chemistry remains open until and even after the first meeting. For that reason, I prefer to and have had most of my D/s introductions occur organically from in-person scenarios. I won't say never but I am unlikely to fly to serve someone whom I have not had a chance to meet in person.

Still, I use that example to convey a point, which is that some of the scenarios we are discussing are based only or primarily on a D/s dynamic and reasoning that we apply to vanilla situations does not fully apply to these scenarios. To rephrase my example then for a scenario where you have met the person, I expect you are unlikely to fly to another city to spend a weekend sanding and painting an arbor amongst other chores simply to be nice and helpful to this person. If the scenario lies outside what one might encounter in everyday social life, the motivations likely lie outside everyday social motivations, and I think it is important to understand or address these motivations.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 5:22:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Lady C, I am mortally wounded. I would also like to state I am being picked on.

Will a band aid do?

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 5:28:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

Um...the key words I see in the OP are "dominant man". Dominant men do not generally view service to a woman in itself as a goal or a desirable experience--so no, of course he wasn't going to go home and masturbate over it. Dominant men are also very accustomed to trading labor with their friends and associates when things need to be done--there is no kink involved in helping someone move or build a deck--and they are very accustomed in the dating world to making gestures that demonstrate that their good character on "first dates" with women.

You might actually have gotten quite the stink-eye from him if you had NOT tried to pitch in and carry a few things, or if you had tried to make it a D/S interaction. Certainly every dominant man I have been friends with expected me to behave like an equal and treat him as such; if I had asked for their help to accomplish something and then tried to play Queen of the Nile and lounged around while they worked, it would have been a disaster, even on a first date.

I don't think it should come as a great surprise that submissive men who enjoy service as a sexual kink and part of their D/S orientation would behave differently than dominant men who view a job that needs doing as an opportunity to meet an interesting woman. In the one case, the service has an intrinsic sexual value; in the other, the service is simply a means to an end, and has no intrinsic sexual value. In both cases the man is doing what he feels he has to do to get his needs met. Where's the surprise?

Bullseye...

(in reply to ShaktiSama)

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 5:36:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Simple answer, if you are not willing to act like a friend without strings, I am not interested in your "submission", I'm not a domming machine or a fulfiller of fantasies, to engage with somebody in any type of BDSM there has to be mutual sympathy. Now if you say your biggest kink is to clean my kitchen, I am fine with that but I will expect you to do it, if it is not your kink, then don't claim it is. Simple?

Mutual sympathy is not mutually exclusive with scenarios I am attempting to describe ;-)

So which is it? Do you see a submissive cleaning for you as an act of friendly sympathy or as an act that expresses a D/s dynamic?

If it is friendly sympathy, do you expect your vanilla friends to do so, and do you clean for your submissive?

If it is as part of a D/s dynamic, what do you do that makes a D/s dynamic? Often that is all that is needed--a feel of a D/s dynamic. However, the D/s dynamic is created by something. You may very well be doing things that create a D/s dynamic and that is great. However, there are scenarios where the expectation for service is based on D/s motivation yet what is required to make it a D/s scenario is not done. It is these scenarios at which I direct my comments.

If a submissive tells a domme that his biggest kink is to clean her kitchen, I think it is unlikely that he likes to rub a sponge over dishes and countertops. I think it would serve a domme's interests to understand why cleaning a kitchen is his biggest kink and then to see whether she is fine with it.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 5:37:53 PM

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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
I would love to clean your garage, Sea. I specialize in imposing order on chaos! But, if I do something like that Slavekal will revoke my DomlyDom card!

So much for my example ;-)

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 5:44:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
If I fly to another city to meet someone off the internet the first time, I expect ONE THING.......to meet them. Period. If someone flies here to meet me they are guaranteed ONE THING........to meet me.

Anyone that expects anything more is an idiot.

Sure, I share your philosophy that the question about compatibility and chemistry remains open until and even after the first meeting. For that reason, I prefer to and have had most of my D/s introductions occur organically from in-person scenarios. I won't say never but I am unlikely to fly to serve someone whom I have not had a chance to meet in person.

Still, I use that example to convey a point, which is that some of the scenarios we are discussing are based only or primarily on a D/s dynamic and reasoning that we apply to vanilla situations does not fully apply to these scenarios. To rephrase my example then for a scenario where you have met the person, I expect you are unlikely to fly to another city to spend a weekend sanding and painting an arbor amongst other chores simply to be nice and helpful to this person. If the scenario lies outside what one might encounter in everyday social life, the motivations likely lie outside everyday social motivations, and I think it is important to understand or address these motivations.

Cheers,

Sea

Sea, I understand what you are saying. The thing is, I might. Spending time with someone doing something like that would be a great way to get a good idea of what that person is like. In addition, even though my goal is a M/s relationship, when first meeting someone I do not meet them with M/s expectations. I am actually squicked out if that is the perceived focus of discussions about meeting.

The reality is that I wouldn't ask someone, I didn't know, to come to my house to do something like that. Number one, I don't know that I want them there! My home is my sanctuary and not everyone gets to visit. Number two, if I did feel comfortable having them here, and they expressed an interest in doing something like deck renovation and did not express any expectation of reciprocation, they would be expected to renovate the deck.......nothing else. I would feel deceived and that they were trying to manipulate me by bringing that up, AFTER the fact.

Personally, I don't have any interest in service only, regardless of how much I joke about it. No emotional attachment just does not trip my trigger. I communicate that. I like to feel some sort of connection and foundation of trust before I even invite them out here. At that point, we should have some sort of relationship beginning, an idea of what the dynamic might be.

I really think the biggest key, as always, is communication. Both parties need to communicate their expectations. Anyone that doesn't communicate, and just assumes, is setting themself up for failure and disappointment. I have a feeling, and I could be wrong, that many people want the D/s activity so badly, they convince themselves they are a service submissive in hopes that the service gets them the D/s play. They eagerly offer their services, hoping and banking on the D/s as a reward without communicating their hopes. Then, when they do not get their "reward" they get angry and feel used.

There is nothing wrong with service for play, IF both parties are in agreement of the mutual expectations. It simply must be communicated and not assumed.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to undergroundsea)

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 5:58:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Simple answer, if you are not willing to act like a friend without strings, I am not interested in your "submission", I'm not a domming machine or a fulfiller of fantasies, to engage with somebody in any type of BDSM there has to be mutual sympathy. Now if you say your biggest kink is to clean my kitchen, I am fine with that but I will expect you to do it, if it is not your kink, then don't claim it is. Simple?

Mutual sympathy is not mutually exclusive with scenarios I am attempting to describe ;-)

So which is it? Do you see a submissive cleaning for you as an act of friendly sympathy or as an act that expresses a D/s dynamic?

If it is friendly sympathy, do you expect your vanilla friends to do so, and do you clean for your submissive?

If it is as part of a D/s dynamic, what do you do that makes a D/s dynamic? Often that is all that is needed--a feel of a D/s dynamic. However, the D/s dynamic is created by something. You may very well be doing things that create a D/s dynamic and that is great. However, there are scenarios where the expectation for service is based on D/s motivation yet what is required to make it a D/s scenario is not done. It is these scenarios at which I direct my comments.

If a submissive tells a domme that his biggest kink is to clean her kitchen, I think it is unlikely that he likes to rub a sponge over dishes and countertops. I think it would serve a domme's interests to understand why cleaning a kitchen is his biggest kink and then to see whether she is fine with it.

Cheers,

Sea

A friend possibly would not come and pester me about wanting to clean my kitchen, yet countless people on CM and at fetish parties come up and tell me they want to clean my house, a bit pretentious in my eyes, why would I let a stranger into my house? Do they honestly think they can do a better job than my cleaner who will expect nothing else but the agreed wage? Additionally they often do not really want to clean but watch me while they pretend to clean. It might sound terribly selfish but it is not my kink so it would simply be a waste of my time, I would feel I am the submissive in that scenario, acting like an audience for their kink, I really can't see the point of it.

Now if a submissive tells me that his biggest kink is to clean my kitchen, do you really really think that it is my job to wonder why it is so and to try and find out what his motivations are? Hell no! I am not a shrink, if he wants a shrink he should go to one and pay a shrink. My main interest is my own life, not understanding every kink of every submissive out there, or acting as a surrogate shrink for them. If they are that needy, I simply have no interest. A partner might come with baggage, if I think the person is worth dealing with the baggage, then I am prepared to do so, but I am not prepared to do the same for every self appointed submissive who proclaims his kink is .....

I had 2 great experiences with "service subs", both of them were friends, one of them simply said he got satisfaction out of making my life easier and bringing me joy, in turns I simply wanted to give back and took him to fetish parties or indulged his fetishes, on both sides it was completely out of our own free will and something we wanted to do because it was a great friendship and we had the fetish factor going.
The other person pretty much got off on "being of use and being used" but said his fetish was to have smoke blown into his face and receiving a certain amount of crop lashes for the service, it was honest and clear and I had no issue with it, in fact, I enjoyed hanging out with him afterwards, and making sure I smoked and directed the smoke into his face and to try out each and every new crop I had out on him, or alternating the crops and making him guess which one I used.

But apart from that, I am much more happy with a cleaner than with a needy submissive who thinks I should play surrogate shrink, understand all his motivations, 2nd guess every emotion, etc. Those guys are not service subs, they want me to service them and if you want to use the quid pro quo equation, my time is compensated a lot better than a cleaner's time, so what would I gain from the "free service" of a sub, when it would cost me 2 hours analyzing him for one hour of cleaning? That's not submissive, that is self-serving under the guise of submission, not all that different from "watch me masturbate for you, because I am performing a service for you"

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to undergroundsea)

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 6:01:47 PM

LovingMistress45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

All i asked was that She wear a hot pair of shoes while i was there (which i had bought Her), refer to me as 'slave', and allow me to kiss Her feet as a reward when She felt it was warrented.

Personally to me, this isn't a service slave...this is a service bottom...ie...tit for tat. I'll do this if you do that and we'll both get what we want out of the deal.

...but that's my view.

(in reply to littlewonder)

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 6:02:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Sea, I understand what you are saying. The thing is, I might. Spending time with someone doing something like that would be a great way to get a good idea of what that person is like.

I enjoy psychology. And I especially enjoy discussing the psychology of service. I could go on for hours.

I agree that working together on projects (versus one person doing it) can be a bonding experience. And, yes, in that context of working together I can see people flying to another city to help someone out even in vanilla dynamics.

I think your post brings up two interesting points.

One, service is not for everyone. In general and without directing this statement at you, I think people should do it because they enjoy it, not because it is perceived as a tradition that must occur in BDSM.

The other point is the one about communication. I agree with your emphasis. When a sub says it is his kink to do X act of service without anything in return, and the domme simply accepts that statement, I do not think adequate communication has occurred.

It could be that by not expecting anything in return, the sub means he does not expect a formal scene on a quid pro quo basis. It could be that he does, however, expect a D/s dynamic. It could be that he assumes that a D/s dynamic will naturally occur given that the conversation is occuring between a domme and a sub. It could be he has not come to identify this expectation clearly in his mind. It could be that he feels odd telling a domme to act a certain way because it conflicts with the dynamic.

Therefore, especially if what is happening lies outside what one would encounter with vanilla friends, I think it serves a domme's purpose to achieve more complete communication by asking why he enjoys his kink. I think this conversation would reveal information that would be useful to her.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 6:09:41 PM

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Now if a submissive tells me that his biggest kink is to clean my kitchen, do you really really think that it is my job to wonder why it is so and to try and find out what his motivations are? Hell no! I am not a shrink, if he wants a shrink he should go to one and pay a shrink.

I do not suggest understanding or asking about the motivation in the role of a shrink but towards obtaining information that would be useful for the domme.

I think the two scenarios you describe are excellent examples of a functioning service relationship. You were somehow also contributing energy to the service relationship. In fact, what you did in those scenarios exceeds what might be done in other working scenarios. The scenarios at which I direct my comments are those where there is a misconception that the draw is in the motions of cleaning, and not in what the cleaning represents, or scenarios in which one does not return any energy.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 6:12:34 PM

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Sea, I think we are much on the same page. My only addition would be that, both are adults, to make the communication of expectations the dominant person's responsibility isn't going to cut it with me.

Just because the submissive may WANT to have a D/s relationship with the dominant does not mean they already do. Or that they can just sit there and expect the dominant to drag their needs and desires out of them. It's not difficult to ask these types of questions without coming across as demanding or looking for wanker material.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to undergroundsea)

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 6:32:55 PM

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FR

Woah. This thread's coming dangerously close to becoming optimistic about service submission. Folks, I urge you all to pull yourselves together lest things go from bad to worse . . . .

Funny: whatever sense of service-sub is in me, I'm shy to talk about it. Suffice to say that the buzz for me has much more to do with words and facial expressions than clothing or kissing a woman's feet.

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(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 6:33:34 PM

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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Sea, I think we are much on the same page. My only addition would be that, both are adults, to make the communication of expectations the dominant person's responsibility isn't going to cut it with me.

I understand your point.

I will add a datapoint to the mix and say that I am not at ease stating my D/s expectations. I can discuss my general relationship expectations but it feels odd to me to say I want this done and that done. Perhaps part of this reluctance comes from wishing to not be seen as do-me. I think a greater part of this reluctance comes because to me it counters the dynamic and takes something away from the mindset.

I might initiate a discussion to ask how things went after a scene. Or I might initiate a discussion to ask what a domme's expectations will be. However, I will then leave it to the domme to ask, ok now what about you? I do not see myself saying ok, now let's talk about what I like being done.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/30/2009 6:46:08 PM

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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Suffice to say that the buzz for me has much more to do with words and facial expressions than clothing or kissing a woman's feet.

I feel similarly. Kinda. Sorta. ;-)

The buzz can come from different places. But one of the buzzes--the one that comes from the masochism component--comes from a mindset, and words, facial expressions, and tone are very important for this mindset. I do not require clothing or any specific activity.

I will add, however, that there are some activities that particularly resonate with me as expressions of dominance and submission and they enhance my submissive headspace. I do not ask for them and can enjoy a service experience without them but if they occur, it increases my submissive headspace and affects my overall experience. For another person, having smoke blown in the face or kissing feet might create a similar effect.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to PeonForHer)

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