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Service vs. favours - 5/27/2009 11:52:15 PM

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This past weekend, I had a first date with a Dominant man who I had started e-mailing about 5 days before. It was very spur-of-the-moment, prompted by him offering to help me schlep computers around (and set them up if I needed help with that part), for an event I had volunteered for. Since it was in a public place, around people I know, I was comfortable with accepting, though it wouldn't have occurred to me to ask. He got there promptly, we got everything situated, and I got clearance from the person in charge to run off and talk with him for a while.

The difference between the way he handled it and the service debates here was rather profound. He didn't criticise what I was wearing, how I talked to him, that I pitched in and carried some of the stuff, expect any D/s interaction, etc. We just got the job done, then got a chance to hang out and talk for a while! I didn't get any skeezy "I'm going to go home and fap about this" vibe from him, either, like a lot of male submissives have mentioned they do.

I didn't feel he was treating me like a male buddy or little old lady neighbor he was doing a favour for, or as service/submission. It was more "I want to impress this lady I'm attracted to and help her out, and it's a great excuse to spend some time with her!" Granted, a half hour of doing stuff with computers is much less of a time/effort commitment than 8 hours of yard work. I'm just surprised that so few male submissives seem to be willing to be helpful in that type of way. I don't have as much experience with female submissives, but most of them, if they offer to do a service or favour, don't *seem* like they'd be creepy or overly demanding about it.

Hmm, I'm sorry if this comes across as ragging on male subs, and I think some of them are wonderful, and express their desire for service in a positive, even delicious, way. It just really struck me how different the experience was from most threads I've seen about submissives, service, and being helpful/doing favours. *sighs* Of course, in a LTR, with an already established D/s dynamic, it's very understandable to want, or even need, some expression of that in service-oriented aspects. It just seems like a lot of submissives aren't willing to be at all helpful unless there is something kinky in it for them.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 5/27/2009 11:54:50 PM >

RE: Service vs. favours - 5/28/2009 12:24:48 AM

onlyfreelycaged

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I think that problem applies to men in general, and not just male subs... cept you'd have to replace kind with sex..

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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/28/2009 12:31:15 AM

LadySweetOrSour

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I agree Andalusite. I recently had a service sub email me several times to ask if there was anything, anything at all he could do for me, with no expectations. Cleaning, washing, ironing, whatever. As I had been in hospital and wasn't able to even walk unassisted (nothing contagious), I thought ok, let's test this theory. I replied and told him that I was unable to walk (bone infection in my femurs) and that as long as he understood that there was going to be no "reward" for service, he could come over and clean to his hearts content. Not surprisingly, I never heard from him again.

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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/28/2009 6:22:30 AM

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He invested an hour or two. In return, he got to meet you and also see how you interacted with others you've known for a while.

Of course he didn't criticize you or do anything creepy. His time was important to him, and he wanted to make sure that he got to know you. He's looking at a possible relationship, and he is not going to play childish games that could sabotage things.

Are guys like this really that uncommon? /confused/

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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/28/2009 6:45:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Are guys like this really that uncommon? /confused/

Sadly but bluntly: YES

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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/28/2009 7:27:02 AM

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Um...the key words I see in the OP are "dominant man". Dominant men do not generally view service to a woman in itself as a goal or a desirable experience--so no, of course he wasn't going to go home and masturbate over it. Dominant men are also very accustomed to trading labor with their friends and associates when things need to be done--there is no kink involved in helping someone move or build a deck--and they are very accustomed in the dating world to making gestures that demonstrate that their good character on "first dates" with women.

You might actually have gotten quite the stink-eye from him if you had NOT tried to pitch in and carry a few things, or if you had tried to make it a D/S interaction. Certainly every dominant man I have been friends with expected me to behave like an equal and treat him as such; if I had asked for their help to accomplish something and then tried to play Queen of the Nile and lounged around while they worked, it would have been a disaster, even on a first date.

I don't think it should come as a great surprise that submissive men who enjoy service as a sexual kink and part of their D/S orientation would behave differently than dominant men who view a job that needs doing as an opportunity to meet an interesting woman. In the one case, the service has an intrinsic sexual value; in the other, the service is simply a means to an end, and has no intrinsic sexual value. In both cases the man is doing what he feels he has to do to get his needs met. Where's the surprise?

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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/28/2009 8:06:31 AM

SomethingCatchy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Are guys like this really that uncommon? /confused/

Sadly but bluntly: YES

x2

While I don't know of any living human being who's completely selfless, and to be honest that's a bit crazy anyway, the vast majority of the men I've been exposed to were incredibly selfish, especially when it came to doing things for others. There's hardly any 'I'll do this for you, because I like you and want to get to know you better'. It's more like 'I'm doing this for you, so that later you'll do X for me.' With most men who act like this, X means sex.

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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/28/2009 8:16:57 AM

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What Shakti said.

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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/28/2009 8:34:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama
the key words I see in the OP are "dominant man".

Wow. I guess I really am a true dominant after all, because if I say I'm going to help someone with something, that's what I mean, and there isn't anything "more" to it.

I can see your points, Shakti and Anda. I've talked with female subs whose idea of submission was a form of emotional vampirism: "I'll do anything you say, as long as it's within these parameters, and as long as you focus all of your attention and energy on my needs 24/7." I wouldn't be surprised if that's even more common among men who put up sub profiles. Maybe raising kids knocks some of that narcissism out of women, and men on average don't, as often, have to get up and do something for someone else, even if they are tired or sick.

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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/28/2009 9:01:24 AM

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Granted, I have zero experience with submissive men, aside from having a few as friends/aquaintances, but I really don't think there is much difference in "return for effort" between men and women. I've yet to meet a submissive/slave woman, that was solely service oriented, without concern for her own gratification of some sort.

Not saying these people do not exist, just saying I've yet to know one.

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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/28/2009 9:03:54 AM

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Shakti, I can see that, though it still surprises me that on average, submissive men here seem to be less interested in approaches women will actually enjoy/that are likely to work, both online and offline, than dominant or switch men are. I'd logically think that they'd be even more interested in actually doing what women want/enjoy, but it just doesn't seem to work out that way sometimes? There are lots of wonderful exceptions, but most of them live too far away or are already in committed relationships. *sighs*

DarkSteven, it doesn't seem uncommon at all among my vanilla friends. All of the guys I've dated have been perfectly willing to help me if I needed it. I suspect there are plenty of other guys who would be perfectly willing to be helpful in similar ways if I asked or the subject came up. For that matter, I probably could have just run around a bit, asking a couple of guys if they'd be willing to help me lug stuff out of the car, and rounded up a dozen volunteers in less than 10 minutes there (assuming they weren't in the middle of something), but it wouldn't have involved any logistical - getting there. I don't tend to ask for or expect help from someone on a first date, before we've had a chance to say much more than "Hi,I'm so and so!" I get dozens of submissive guys e-mailing me, or posting here, who are into service only if the lady dresses a certain way, gets after them with a whip, talks to them a certain way, and they are very obvious about it being focused on their arousal. Many of them won't lift a finger unless they can outright do it naked or while dressed en femme.

LaT, I don't expect people to not get *anything* out of service, but when I've done stuff for other people, either as a submissive, or just on a vanilla basis, I get a lot of satisfaction from feeling helpful/making their life easier/doing it properly. If I feel taken for granted, I'm not likely to continue doing stuff for that person, but I don't expect to wear a particular outfit, or have them do so, or to run off and masturbate as soon as I finish. I most certainly don't make a point of doing a lousy job in hopes of initiating a BDSM play session!

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 5/28/2009 9:21:51 AM >

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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/28/2009 10:03:57 AM

subtlebutterfly

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Okay..I'm terribly stupid probably but if I'm asked for a help or if I offer my help I don't exactly expect anything in return I simply do it 'cause I like the person................and I honestly didn't know it was like..uncommon?

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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/28/2009 10:05:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtlebutterfly

Okay..I'm terribly stupid probably but if I'm asked for a help or if I offer my help I don't exactly expect anything in return I simply do it 'cause I like the person................and I honestly didn't know it was like..uncommon?

It's because you're a chick. Women don't seem to do the quid pro quo thing the way sub males often do.

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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/28/2009 10:18:17 AM

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Granted, a half hour of doing stuff with computers is much less of a time/effort commitment than 8 hours of yard work.

Being able to fix someone's computer is a lot more satisfying, and in more ways, than many people might think. One of these is that if you know what you're doing the ratio of your effort to the benefit s/he receives is huge: you do a few little things; his/her life's eased quite a lot.

In short, I think computer-fixing's something of a special case. Mind you, when I've done it, it's not so that I can be 'with' the person whose pooter I'm fixing. Quite the opposite, in a way. I can't concentrate if they're there, talking to me, at the same time.

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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/28/2009 10:28:47 AM

subtlebutterfly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtlebutterfly

Okay..I'm terribly stupid probably but if I'm asked for a help or if I offer my help I don't exactly expect anything in return I simply do it 'cause I like the person................and I honestly didn't know it was like..uncommon?

It's because you're a chick. Women don't seem to do the quid pro quo thing the way sub males often do.

but.. I haven't noticed any differently with my guy friends either.. but they aint exactly subs..so I guess it's only sub-males..man that's fucked.

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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/28/2009 10:44:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SomethingCatchy

While I don't know of any living human being who's completely selfless, and to be honest that's a bit crazy anyway, the vast majority of the men I've been exposed to were incredibly selfish, especially when it came to doing things for others. There's hardly any 'I'll do this for you, because I like you and want to get to know you better'. It's more like 'I'm doing this for you, so that later you'll do X for me.' With most men who act like this, X means sex.

Submissive men do not have the market cornered on "giving" or "service" or "helpfulness." They are just as likely to potentially be selfish assholes, even if they honestly define themselves as "service oriented submissives" -- because even in service, a man can make it all about himself. It's all about the rewards, his ego, and "look at me!" stuff. And it's a huge energy drain to be around submissives like this; their entire self image is wrapped around being needed, being useful, or being managed.

There are plenty of totally vanilla guys, or even dominant men, who are generous in spirit and like helping. That's not a sub thing or a dom thing. It's about how a guy was raised. I observe selfless and selfish male partners across the board in couples, and there's no correlation between the power dynamic. The key thing is that they like to help, they enjoy being of assistance, and they feel good when they can be in this role, AND doing so is a reward in itself. It's not the gender or the relationship of the person they are serving, it's the fulfillment they get from helping a person in need. When they do some for someone they love, it just makes it more rewarding; however, they are not motivated by attention, back-patting, receiving direction or getting something in return. If you combine that kind of personality with submissision, plus a loving relationship, you have a "dream sub" - trust me!

Akasha

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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/28/2009 10:44:31 AM

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I look back through the years... yes it takes a while damn it (!), but I see many men who came to assist me in something or just saw a need for something to be done without a mention of it.... no kink... no sex or the desire to impress me and those times were amazing! I saw the heart and some intentions or the way of a man that impressed me. Reminded me of my grandpa who was always trying to help someone and a guy like that just does it, not to impress, not to get something and simply because he had a heart, knew it needed to be done and could do it and did it.

This trade off stuff I realize has some deeper meaning to some and in some cases I have seen some pretty serious manipulation. Like the guys that did it for a reason of desire or getting me. There was a man I know I could not have made it without after my son was injured. I was soooo thankful and yet towards the end... it sickened me. He said he knew I needed help and he had known my son and cared... but somewhere in the mix, even though I said I was of no mind to find a relationship while saving my son... things changed and I became part of the deal for him. He wouldn't listen to me and how overwhelmed I was with it all and how uninterested I was in finding a man.. and I think that was part of it.

I could use a lot of help and have had some offers... but I am not going that route to finding the help. I will break myself paying for it because I am not a trade off. Yet in all of this... there was one submissive man and a number of dominant men who stepped up to the plate, no expectations and that kind of sticks in my mind and makes me wonder.

If help and I won't call it service... isn't from the heart or good will... I am not interested. There are some things that just don't need the kink drive. Service I will get once in a relationship maybe, but until then... not interested in whatever prompts it.

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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/28/2009 10:44:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtlebutterfly

but.. I haven't noticed any differently with my guy friends either.. but they aint exactly subs..so I guess it's only sub-males..man that's fucked.

With most of friends it's the same way, no matter if male or female, you offer help because somebody needs it, end of story, no expectations just what you do.

When guys have a sexual interest things often become a bit skewered and with a lot of subs it's extreme. I have no problem with people wanting to do a "tit for tat" deal, it's up to me to take it or leave it, but that whole thing about "I'd do anything and want nothing in return" is usually just a smoke screen, it's human and all, but it still "weirds me out" to a certain degree. I reached the point that when I do need a favour, I rather ask a strictly platonic friend than a guy who I know is attracted to me, just to avoid the whole confusion.

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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/28/2009 10:45:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite
Shakti, I can see that, though it still surprises me that on average, submissive men here seem to be less interested in approaches women will actually enjoy/that are likely to work, both online and offline, than dominant or switch men are.

I guess it's just a problem of mismatching needs and expectations? Many submissive men seem to genuinely believe that certain approaches will work, or even if they won't work, that they SHOULD work; they have some preconceived notion of what female dominance means and they are constantly disappointed by the reality.

After having hashed this out in many threads and seen many posts and responses from all sorts of people, I think the upshot for me is this: there is nothing about the submissive/bottom orientation that makes you automatically considerate or empathic toward your partner and his/her real needs. (And by this I mean the unsexy and inconvenient needs that a person REALLY has, not the bullshit fantasy needs that you WANT them to have when you're jerking off about being dominated.)

Many submissives and bottoms are actually very insensitive, demanding people, who are far less interested in real relationships than they are in living out their fantasies. In this respect, they have a lot in common with selfish, demanding people of any orientation. I think it's probably safe at this point to simply let those people become part of the "background noise" of dumbfuckery which is common throughout the world and accept that worthwhile people of any demographic group are rare, precious and should be cherished.

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RE: Service vs. favours - 5/28/2009 11:17:43 AM

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"background noise of dumbfuckery" I love that!!

Andalusite, I do not mean that a submissive, slave, or anyone, not get anything from service. I just hate the expectation placed on it. If they were patient, and had a brain, they would soon figure out that they could get, one hell of a lot, in return. Unfortunately this is the age of instant gratification so most cannot see past the end of their noses.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 5/28/2009 11:18:21 AM >

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