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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 6:57:57 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
My understanding is the the "tongues" are never recognizable languages but always "ancient" tongues or "angelic" ones. 


Might be your understanding, but that isn't true of my experience.  Most of(not all) the encounters I have ever heard/researched about or experienced watching/participated with were genuine languages.
 
the.dark.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 7:03:20 AM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		I was just thinking about this thread while I was driving into work.

If you think about it, this particular religioun really isn't that much more wierd than say, catholicism. Think about it, going to a multi-million dollar building (usually) full of plaster saints (creepy), and usually one big one of a dead guy on a cross, splashing yourself with "holy" water, doing lots of kneeling, standing, sitting, kneeling, listening to some old pedophile chant, go through some weird little script where he says something, and you and all the rest of the sheep say something back, worship a few dead saints and smell some nasty stinky inscense (gag), maybe confess all the things on a list some dead guy came up with, previously mentioned pedophile gives you homework (usually some scripted shit while fingering a tacky necklace type thing), and tells you that you are forgiven........all so you can go home feeling better about yourself and do some more things on that list.

Dancing around with snakes is weird but, to an outsider, not a lot weirder than the above.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 6/1/2009 7:04:02 AM >

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 7:08:49 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: janiebelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

its all very well proving yourself with signs such as handling snakes and drinking poison, but that passage in Mark also describes the performance of other acts - casting out spirits, speaking in tongues, laying hands on the sick, as signs of those who believe. If the snake handlers dont do these other acts?

They do all of that fun stuff too.  It just looks halfway "normal" compared to snake handling.
For those who don't live in the South, it is shocking to see pentecostal and other services where folks are talking in tongues and laying on hands. 
If you ever get the chance to attend one of these services or the opportunity to go to a baptist revival, call in dead.
You'll thank me later. 


I grew up in a church similar to that.........yeah, it was weird. "Habada, yama, yoka hama, doya guuba dama......" While standing with arms up and swaying, eyes usually closed.

The healings were the bomb. Standing around in a circle, a few people yelling at the "eviiiiillll devil illness!!". Usually followed by the "healed" collapsing to the floor in the centre.

It was entertaining people watching......


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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 7:09:54 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
My understanding is the the "tongues" are never recognizable languages but always "ancient" tongues or "angelic" ones. 


Might be your understanding, but that isn't true of my experience.  Most of(not all) the encounters I have ever heard/researched about or experienced watching/participated with were genuine languages.
 
the.dark.

Then you've seen a very rare phenomena. Xenoglossy, the speaking of an actual language not learned by natural means, is not even claimed by most who experience glossalia, speaking in tongues. Last I looked not a single indisputable case has ever been documented.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 6/1/2009 7:11:00 AM >

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 7:19:45 AM   
cpK69


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The scripture I had looked up, New International Version, uses the words "in new tongues", instead of "in tongues". Does anyone one know which would be more accurate?

The idea of speaking in tongues, always reminds me of 'babble'. It was my understanding, the events assosiated with the term, were not one of 'man's' shining moments. Also, it does not seem accuarte that babble would be the langue of 'truth'.

Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 6/1/2009 7:20:30 AM >

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 7:35:18 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		Okay I looked into some of my old research notes, and the Darby Translation is likely the most accurate concerning Mark. Notice passage 18 that states "if they should drink any deadly thing" , which does not actually tell them to do so. It is written in many places that the apostles were impervious to disease and poison. I do not find this as hocus pocus, as many Eastern philosophies and disciplines help strengthen the body to disease and toxins. Hope this helps.

"17And these signs shall follow those that have believed: in my name they shall cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;
18they shall take up serpents; and if they should drink any deadly thing it shall not injure them; they shall lay hands upon the infirm, and they shall be well. "

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 7:38:16 AM   
sleazybutterfly


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Status: offline 		In actuality the gift of tongues is not used today like it was used in the times of the Bible.  I wonder if most people that even speak it now have any idea what it really is.  It's not my place to say if someone is really doing it or not, that is between them and God.  I do believe it is real, but their way of doing it and my way of believing in it are two different things.

As for the snake people.  They are adults and as long as they consent to doing this and aren't causing harm to the animal or those that can't make the decision, I have no problem with it.  It's not something I am into, but I personally am scared stiff of snakes.

I would say Christians get a bad rap as a group.  The problem you run into is anyone can call themselves a Christian sect even if they have some modern day messiah with a god complex.  People for the most part are extreme when they get into something like that, some are just looking for a place to belong and they hear "christian" and think it's legit.  By the time they could realize otherwise they are so sucked in that they can't find their way out.  I think it's very sad and a lot of people will be answering for it someday.

I am not excusing anyone's behavior, but I do know what it's like to not be able to find a "home" in this big world, a place where you can feel like you belong.  I have found that now in the Christian faith I belong in, and in my heart I have found the truth.  I only hope and pray everyone can find peace in the same way someday.  The one I belong to is called a cult by other groups, but I have not found it to be that way.  I suppose any religion is a cult if you look at the definition of the word.  As someone though that is considered an outcast by other parts of my faith, I can understand the way a lot of other people feel.

sheesh..I rambled, hopefully I got out what I was trying to say though.

SB


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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 7:38:57 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Then you've seen a very rare phenomena. Xenoglossy, the speaking of an actual language not learned by natural means, is not even claimed by most who experience glossalia, speaking in tongues. Last I looked not a single indisputable case has ever been documented.

 
It's not that 'rare' - it's just there hasn't been anyone doing a full on case study because no ones been bothered - that's the only reason you can claim it's 'rare.  And I don't always believe it's 'language not learned by natural means' either.  I never said that speaking in tongues or xenoglossy (both which are used/intertwined and not as unclaimed as you have made out) was always 'spiritual' or 'paranormal'.  It happens more than people realise.  I am pretty convinced that the brain has a far bigger capacity to retain knowledge than most people consider, and that includes behaviours and language.  What our ancestors have done gets passed on... why not via brain activity?  That's got nothing to do with the paranormal.  Science is already looking into such posibilities.

The most ironic thing about threads like this is that, again, the most closed minded people that show themselves end up being those who keep disputing any religious or spiritual concepts and who go on and on  about 'them christians' or ' them muslims' or ' them *insert whatever religious thing here*.
 
the.dark.
(.whosprettycomfortablelookingatsomethingfromallangles.)

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 7:43:05 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		Looking more into my notes and references, "serpent" is often used to describe the source of sin, impure, or ungodly things. To look at the passage metaphorically it could mean "They shall be among those that sin, but shall be able to resist should they be tempted. They shall speak, and the word of God shall be heard and heal the impurities from those that suffer from the afflicitions of sin."

This of course is just an interpretation using symbology, metaphore and parabels that are already established within Judea-Christian scripts. It may not be what is meant at all.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 7:45:08 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Might be your understanding, but that isn't true of my experience.  Most of(not all) the encounters I have ever heard/researched about or experienced watching/participated with were genuine languages.


The jury is still very much out on that.  Google glossolalia.  One view can be found here.



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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 7:53:34 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

I was just thinking about this thread while I was driving into work.

If you think about it, this particular religioun really isn't that much more wierd than say, catholicism. Think about it, going to a multi-million dollar building (usually) full of plaster saints (creepy), and usually one big one of a dead guy on a cross, splashing yourself with "holy" water, doing lots of kneeling, standing, sitting, kneeling, listening to some old pedophile chant, go through some weird little script where he says something, and you and all the rest of the sheep say something back, worship a few dead saints and smell some nasty stinky inscense (gag), maybe confess all the things on a list some dead guy came up with, previously mentioned pedophile gives you homework (usually some scripted shit while fingering a tacky necklace type thing), and tells you that you are forgiven........all so you can go home feeling better about yourself and do some more things on that list.

Dancing around with snakes is weird but, to an outsider, not a lot weirder than the above.


I agree.  To that you can add just about any religion, ideology with ritual.  In fact you can add any tradition, custom, etc.  Wether someone is handling snakes, venerating saints, blowing up infidels, or simply giving the Vulcan hand sign to their fellow Trekies at the convention, it all springs from the same source - human nature.  In particular, the human need to belong to a group (tribe), and to understand the world and our place in it.   


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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 7:57:31 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

General

The scripture I had looked up, New International Version, uses the words "in new tongues", instead of "in tongues". Does anyone one know which would be more accurate?

The idea of speaking in tongues, always reminds me of 'babble'. It was my understanding, the events assosiated with the term, were not one of 'man's' shining moments. Also, it does not seem accuarte that babble would be the langue of 'truth'.

Kim


New tongues or more appropriately, new languages.  How that can be interpreted is pretty open really.  Could mean an entirely new language, could mean a language that is new to the person themself.  It could even be that it mean that the person understands something differently, it might not be a language as in french, german or chinese.  It might simply mean something is clear, that wasn't before or could be something like a science, or mathmatics formula.  The discovery of dna or genetics could even be interpreted as it.
 
It's also good to note that Mark isn't in it's full body.  It's shorter than the original text, has lots cut out and probably not written by Mark, but by Peter.
 
the.dark.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 8:01:23 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

New tongues or more appropriately, new languages.  How that can be interpreted is pretty open really.  Could mean an entirely new language, could mean a language that is new to the person themself.  It could even be that it mean that the person understands something differently, it might not be a language as in french, german or chinese.  It might simply mean something is clear, that wasn't before or could be something like a science, or mathmatics formula.  The discovery of dna or genetics could even be interpreted as it.

 
It could also mean the ability to speak in a way that allows communication, regardless of whom you speak to.

quote:

 
It's also good to note that Mark isn't in it's full body.  It's shorter than the original text, has lots cut out and probably not written by Mark, but by Peter.
 
the.dark.


Actually the first portions of Mark is likely taken directly from something Mark wrote, but later in that book the word usage and syntax changes, which indicates it is likely a different author. My belief is that it was changed from it's original approx. 300 years after the first writting.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 8:01:45 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

I agree.  To that you can add just about any religion, ideology with ritual.  In fact you can add any tradition, custom, etc.  Wether someone is handling snakes, venerating saints, blowing up infidels, or simply giving the Vulcan hand sign to their fellow Trekies at the convention, it all springs from the same source - human nature.  In particular, the human need to belong to a group (tribe), and to understand the world and our place in it.   



You had to go and remind me......it's almost time for Trekfest in the nearby town of Riverside Iowa. You wanna talk interesting people watching!!!


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 8:07:22 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Might be your understanding, but that isn't true of my experience.  Most of(not all) the encounters I have ever heard/researched about or experienced watching/participated with were genuine languages.


The jury is still very much out on that.  Google glossolalia.  One view can be found here.


I know the difference between glossolalia and xenoglossy.  If you had stated you were talking specifcally of that, then it would have made more sense and I probably would have agreed with you in the sense that the words are unintelligable.  Glossolalia is a form of tongues as is xenoglossy.  You said never recognisable.  Be wary of those who say never.
Tongues is simply the way it was interpreted.  Languages is a much better translation.
 
the.dark.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 8:08:39 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

You had to go and remind me......it's almost time for Trekfest in the nearby town of Riverside Iowa. You wanna talk interesting people watching!!!


I went to several conventions myself in my twenties and early thirties (I guess you could call me a lapsed Trekkie ).  My favorite was one in Rochester where a group of a dozen or so green Orion slave girls in thong bikinis showed up.



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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 8:12:15 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
It could also mean the ability to speak in a way that allows communication, regardless of whom you speak to.
Yes, that is a total possibility.

quote:

Actually the first portions of Mark is likely taken directly from something Mark wrote, but later in that book the word usage and syntax changes, which indicates it is likely a different author. My belief is that it was changed from it's original approx. 300 years after the first writting.

 
Whilst this is 'true', the question was asked about a specific portion of the book, which I was refering to which was unlikely to be Marks writing, but Peter.
 
the.dark.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 8:14:41 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Be wary of those who say never.

 
I'm wary of all absolutes but it some thing all () of us tend to do in our speaking and writing anyway.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 8:19:10 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Then you've seen a very rare phenomena. Xenoglossy, the speaking of an actual language not learned by natural means, is not even claimed by most who experience glossalia, speaking in tongues. Last I looked not a single indisputable case has ever been documented.

 
It's not that 'rare' - it's just there hasn't been anyone doing a full on case study because no ones been bothered - that's the only reason you can claim it's 'rare.  And I don't always believe it's 'language not learned by natural means' either.  I never said that speaking in tongues or xenoglossy (both which are used/intertwined and not as unclaimed as you have made out) was always 'spiritual' or 'paranormal'.  It happens more than people realise.  I am pretty convinced that the brain has a far bigger capacity to retain knowledge than most people consider, and that includes behaviours and language.  What our ancestors have done gets passed on... why not via brain activity?  That's got nothing to do with the paranormal.  Science is already looking into such posibilities.

The most ironic thing about threads like this is that, again, the most closed minded people that show themselves end up being those who keep disputing any religious or spiritual concepts and who go on and on  about 'them christians' or ' them muslims' or ' them *insert whatever religious thing here*.
 
the.dark.
(.whosprettycomfortablelookingatsomethingfromallangles.)

It actually has been studied.
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~thomason/papers/xenogl.pdf

And like I said no verified cases exist.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 8:27:57 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
It actually has been studied.
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~thomason/papers/xenogl.pdf

And like I said no verified cases exist

 
Her study was second hand for one.  I am talking real study in official conditions, not personal guesswork.  In other words, she only studied other peoples reports, not investigated her own.  For another, she dismisses one because of 'linguistic differences'.  I don't see how this is an extensive study.  That particular case spoke a variety of different languages - all of which were languages, but that it was mixed up.  That didn't deny she didn't speak a language that was unintelligable.
 
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 6/1/2009 8:37:58 AM >

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