RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...'

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 8:21:34 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly
I wish I could find the part in the Bible where the minister I was listening to pointed out.

So now you say that it was actually this minister who argued that the Divine is a cheat? I guess he neither told you the line about false prophets and that he was one of them?

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 8:23:25 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

I do remember there was scripture to back it up, as I am not one to just take anyone's word on things having to do with my belief.

Acts 2:6

I already quoted that in my post 77. Read it.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 8:26:34 AM

sleazybutterfly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly
I wish I could find the part in the Bible where the minister I was listening to pointed out.

So now you say that it was actually this minister who argued that the Divine is a cheat? I guess he neither told you the line about false prophets and that he was one of them?

A cheat? How does that interpretation make God a cheat?

I also never said the man was a prophet, he is a teacher..there is a difference.

I have also since heard the same thing from other ministers of other sects of the church, so it's not just one group of people that believe that way.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 8:26:51 AM

BitaTruble

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I wasn't typing to you, Rule. She obviously missed that part of your post, so I reiterated it.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 8:28:08 AM

sleazybutterfly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly
it's hard to believe that miracles exist in any form...It's my belief though

Whenever someone accuses the Divine of doing something that is a physical impossibility, they are in fact saying that the Divine is a Cheat. Is that the main tenet of your belief, that the Divine is a cheat?

So, by saying that Jesus was raised from the dead, I am calling God a cheat also? I think I will take that risk.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 8:32:34 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly
it's hard to believe that miracles exist in any form...It's my belief though

Whenever someone accuses the Divine of doing something that is a physical impossibility, they are in fact saying that the Divine is a Cheat. Is that the main tenet of your belief, that the Divine is a cheat?

So, by saying that Jesus was raised from the dead, I am calling God a cheat also?

No, because that is not a physical impossibility. It is a miracle, i.e. improbable, but it happened.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 8:35:27 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly
I also never said the man was a prophet, he is a teacher..there is a difference.

No, there is no difference. Any teacher that teaches a truth is a prophet, and any teacher that teaches a falsehood is a false prophet.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 8:40:56 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly
I have also since heard the same thing from other ministers of other sects of the church, so it's not just one group of people that believe that way.

There are also lots of people who are convinced that the Moon is a Swiss cheese. Does that make it a truth?

To them perhaps. I had a friend - now an ex friend - who according to my analysis does not know what a lie is. He sincerely believes that whatever he says is the truth. He would pass any lie detector test with flying colours. If he said that the Moon was a Swiss cheese, he would be convinced that such is indeed the case and he would be outraged when someone accused him of lying about it.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 9:05:35 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
No, because that is not a physical impossibility. It is a miracle, i.e. improbable, but it happened.

What about water into wine? Where would that fall?

the.dark.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 9:15:21 AM

sleazybutterfly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly
it's hard to believe that miracles exist in any form...It's my belief though

Whenever someone accuses the Divine of doing something that is a physical impossibility, they are in fact saying that the Divine is a Cheat. Is that the main tenet of your belief, that the Divine is a cheat?

So, by saying that Jesus was raised from the dead, I am calling God a cheat also?

No, because that is not a physical impossibility. It is a miracle, i.e. improbable, but it happened.

So, you are the one to determine what is a miracle and what is an impossibility?

Are you sure you aren't the friend to whom you were referring earlier?

Miracles are usually known as things that most consider impossible...raising from the dead, water into wine, cancer being cured, oh...and someone hearing their own language when someone is speaking to them in their native tongue.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 9:23:35 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly

oh...and someone hearing their own language when someone is speaking to them in their native tongue.

My sense of logic tells me, if someone can hear me in their langue, when I am speaking in my own, then the miracle was given to them, not me.

Am I missing something?

Kim

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 9:38:07 AM

sleazybutterfly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly

oh...and someone hearing their own language when someone is speaking to them in their native tongue.

My sense of logic tells me, if someone can hear me in their langue, when I am speaking in my own, then the miracle was given to them, not me.

Am I missing something?

Kim

Uhh..that is sort of the point. I consider it a miracle, therefore it's beyond my understanding. Rule was suggesting that it's an impossibility, though that is where most, if not all, miracles fall.

Note the discussions above.

edited because the quote box and I had a fight.

< Message edited by sleazybutterfly -- 6/2/2009 9:39:31 AM >

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 9:40:15 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
What about water into wine? Where would that fall?

Pff. That is easy.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 9:44:32 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly

oh...and someone hearing their own language when someone is speaking to them in their native tongue.

My sense of logic tells me, if someone can hear me in their language, when I am speaking in my own, then the miracle was given to them, not me.

Am I missing something?

Kim

No, you would be quite right if that was the case. However, Luke was very clear: the apostles did not speak in their native tongue, but in the various languages spoken by their audience. See my quote in post 77. So sleazybutterfly is misrepresenting what truly occurred.

< Message edited by Rule -- 6/2/2009 10:21:52 AM >

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 9:45:45 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Looking more into my notes and references, "serpent" is often used to describe the source of sin, impure, or ungodly things. To look at the passage metaphorically it could mean "They shall be among those that sin, but shall be able to resist should they be tempted. They shall speak, and the word of God shall be heard and heal the impurities from those that suffer from the afflicitions of sin."

This of course is just an interpretation using symbology, metaphore and parabels that are already established within Judea-Christian scripts. It may not be what is meant at all.

Quite. Entirely wrong. The snakes in this line represent immortality and perhaps also healing. These apostles had a message to tell to humanity: of life eternal after death, of healing - and they were healers. There are also some indications that holy men in those days had a number of miracle tricks to impress the lay people, one of them being to throw a stick on the ground and have it change into a live snake (I would dearly like to know how they managed a snake to behave like a stick).

So the line "they shall take up serpents" quite simply means: they shall be apostles and bring to all the people of the world the message of hope, of eternal life and of healing.

Now I do wonder: do some snake bites kill a bacterial and / or viral infection? Would it exterminate permanently my herpes infection? Is one snake bite all it takes to cure AIDS?

The holy men had miracle tricks eh? I wonder which year they stopped being able to do miracles?
Was it in the 100's or 300's? I wonder if that's documented anywhere?
Man, that must have been a bummer! "Miracle worker" one day, men's room attendant the next! "Hey Leopardoptera!!! That pot's overflowing!"
"Yes my league, I'm on it!"
Talk about a *demotion!*
"Ha, Ha! It'll be a "miracle" if he gets that shitpot out of here without spilling it!"

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 9:47:54 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly

Uhh..that is sort of the point. I consider it a miracle, therefore it's beyond my understanding.

I would still consider it a ‘miracle’, even if I consider it to have been granted to someone else.

I can accept unexplainable; illogical, I don’t believe Life and Truth would perform such acts.

Kim

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Post #: 96

RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 9:51:47 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly
Rule was suggesting that it's an impossibility, though that is where most, if not all, miracles fall

No, they do not. What is physically impossible by definition cannot happen - unless the Divine cheats.

If something appears to happen that is physically impossible, like a magician sawing a woman into two parts, it most definitely - always - is not a miracle, but a fraud.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 9:56:05 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
I wonder which year they stopped being able to do miracles?
Was it in the 100's or 300's? I wonder if that's documented anywhere?

I suspect that varied, depending on the local culture and the various tricks.
Holy water appears to have lost its healing potency around the year one thousand.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 10:11:44 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

No, you would be quite right if that was the case. However, Luke was very clear: the apostles did not speak in their native tongue, but in the various languanges spoken by their audience. See my quote in post 77. So sleazybutterfly is misrepresenting what truly occurred.

Yes, thank you, Rule and sb. : )

I have been reading along, but I am still not willing to dedicate myself to who might be responsable for the ability.

A big part of my confusion is that it would seem, if the activities were to be continued until the return, than the fact that they have become irrelevant, and or changed, causes a discrepancy for me. I would expect what was written to be relevant to that time, but, in perhaps a slightly different manner, still be applicable to these times. I’m not seeing that.

Also, I tend to lean toward the belief, the associations of snakes, in symbolism, leads back to the events depicted in the encounter Eve had with one.

Kim

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 10:19:49 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
What about water into wine? Where would that fall?

Pff. That is easy.

I never asked if it was easy, I am asking if you place it as a miracle or not.

the.dark.

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