RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...'

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 10:21:41 AM

Arpig

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quote:

So sleazybutterfly is misrepresenting what truly occurred.

And you know what "truly" happened, how? Please don't quote the bilbe to me, you cannot quote the bible to prove the bible.

I do not buy most of what is written in the bible concerning miracles, and I think the whole modern speaking in tongues idea to be ridiculous. Anyone can babble nonsense, in fact one can even do so on here: Arga dor neeglar cormor da gadan sorli dorlat forgoron dismalah obdobrog gerda. Do I get extra points for typing in tongues?

The whole discussion is inane, argueing about what the "true" form of some fictitious miracle was. It never happened, and therefore any interpretation one wants to put on it is 100% correct, that's the wonder of fantasy...we can all be correct.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 10:25:12 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly
Rule was suggesting that it's an impossibility, though that is where most, if not all, miracles fall

No, they do not. What is physically impossible by definition cannot happen - unless the Divine cheats.

If something appears to happen that is physically impossible, like a magician sawing a woman into two parts, it most definitely - always - is not a miracle, but a fraud.

I am not of the belief that miracles on the whole are impossible.

I wouldn't call it cheating either - the Divine can't cheat if he makes the rules.

the.dark.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 10:28:13 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
I never asked if it was easy, I am asking if you place it as a miracle or not.

Me? No, of course not. It is physically impossible to change water into wine. So by definition it is not a miracle - unless the Divine is a cheat. Pick your side.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 10:34:05 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
I am not of the belief that miracles on the whole are impossible.

I am glad that you agree with me: for a miracle to occur, it must be physically possible.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
I wouldn't call it cheating either - the Divine can't cheat if he makes the rules.

If the Divine breaks its own rules, then verily it does cheat. Besides, cheating would make the purpose of the universe void.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 10:35:21 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Me? No, of course not. It is physically impossible to change water into wine. So by definition it is not a miracle - unless the Divine is a cheat. Pick your side.

My question to you is who creates - is it the Divine?

the.dark.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 10:47:42 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
My question to you is who creates - is it the Divine?

Ah, a theological question.

According to mythology, it is the incarnate god called the Creator - as distinct from the Divine; as all incarnate gods are - who creates. That is the simple answer. The more exhaustive answer is also more complicated.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 10:51:42 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
My question to you is who creates - is it the Divine?

Ah, a theological question.

According to mythology, it is the incarnate god called the Creator - as distinct from the Divine; as all incarnate gods are - who creates. That is the simple answer. The more exhaustive answer is also more complicated.

It's ok, wear me out.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 11:07:54 AM

OrionTheWolf

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So Rule, do you know Aramaic? Been to the Vatican vaults lately?

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 11:25:55 AM

Rule

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First then, one needs to understand what to create means. It simply means to have an original idea or an original desire. What the Creator in all his avatars does, is new, is the result of thinking outside the box. Some of the other incarnate gods and ordinary people have the same ability to a lesser degree. The Shepherd God and his avatars is the only one who matches this creative ability of the Creator - but this ability of the Shepherd God is (I cannot express this in another way) thin. Various other incarnate gods - among whom Satan - lack this ability. Satan can invent things and can discover things - but he and his avatars cannot think outside of the box.

Theologically, all incarnate gods - and all ordinary people - represent / are aspects of the Divine. So we may and must extrapolate from these incarnate gods to the Divine. Since the Creator creates, and if the Creator is an aspect of the Divine, then by implication the Divine is able to create. Vice versa, it may and should be argued that when those who are able to create do create, that they do so by interacting with the Divine, acquiring their creation from the Divine.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 11:32:21 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
So Rule, do you know Aramaic? Been to the Vatican vaults lately?

No and no. Neither are these questions in any way relevant, I think. It is only when I have reason to suspect that information is not credible that I check on it.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 1:00:12 PM

sleazybutterfly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

No, you would be quite right if that was the case. However, Luke was very clear: the apostles did not speak in their native tongue, but in the various languanges spoken by their audience. See my quote in post 77. So sleazybutterfly is misrepresenting what truly occurred.

Yes, thank you, Rule and sb. : )

I have been reading along, but I am still not willing to dedicate myself to who might be responsable for the ability.

A big part of my confusion is that it would seem, if the activities were to be continued until the return, than the fact that they have become irrelevant, and or changed, causes a discrepancy for me. I would expect what was written to be relevant to that time, but, in perhaps a slightly different manner, still be applicable to these times. I’m not seeing that.

Also, I tend to lean toward the belief, the associations of snakes, in symbolism, leads back to the events depicted in the encounter Eve had with one.

Kim

I guess for my part, I do believe it's still relevant. While we personally don't see it used at this time, that doesn't mean if the occasion arose it was needed it wouldn't be available. I do also know of praying in tongues also, though I am not sure how I feel about that being used as a show in ways (in other words I don't want someone to feel as though they have to have it happen in public and if it doesn't, they are doomed to hell) I do think it can be part of the gift. I differ in that to me it's not a requirement for salvation.

I am not sure if that helps you at all or not, Kim..but it's how I try to look at things. I am not sure how it works is really a salvational issue, I tend to shy away from things that turn into arguing..my way is right, no..MY way is right. I know my core beliefs and I know them to be true, what anyone else believes I can't really help though when the opportunity presents itself I try to step up and share what they are in the hope that perhaps they will touch someone else.

SB

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 1:49:42 PM

cpK69