RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...'

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 8:37:48 AM

Rule

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FR:

My interpretation of the "speaking in tongues" line is quite prosaically dull: it ought to be translated as "speaking in foreign languages", like Latin, Greek, Mesopotamian, Arabic and Egyptian. Palestina was and is a very cosmopolitic country. Any trade and all traders and sailors that traded between Europe, Egypt, Arabia and Mesopotamia had to pass through Palestina. These apostles did not watch television at night, nor were they active behind their computer on the internet: they spoke to live people, nationals and foreigners, they learned languages.

< Message edited by Rule -- 6/1/2009 8:38:32 AM >

(in reply to RCdc)

RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 8:45:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
It actually has been studied.
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~thomason/papers/xenogl.pdf

And like I said no verified cases exist

Her study was second hand for one. I am talking real study in official conditions, not personal guesswork. In other words, she only studied other peoples reports, not investigated her own. For another, she dismisses one because of 'linguistic differences'. I don't see how this is an extensive study. That particular case spoke a variety of different languages - all of which were languages, but that it was mixed up. That didn't deny she didn't speak a language that was unintelligable.

the.dark.

Present to her a case that you believe is real and I'm sure she will look into it.

(in reply to RCdc)

RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 8:52:05 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Present to her a case that you believe is real and I'm sure she will look into it.

It's not about presenting a case and 'looking into it'. That is the most bizarre and unreliable to study anything. That simply leads to a persons personal perception.
Honestly, I am astounded at peoples perception of 'evidence' sometimes. I don't want to rely on some single persons second guessing on what 'might have occured but I wasn't there' theory. That's biblical work that is.

the.dark.

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(in reply to DomKen)

RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 9:19:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Present to her a case that you believe is real and I'm sure she will look into it.

It's not about presenting a case and 'looking into it'. That is the most bizarre and unreliable to study anything. That simply leads to a persons personal perception.
Honestly, I am astounded at peoples perception of 'evidence' sometimes. I don't want to rely on some single persons second guessing on what 'might have occured but I wasn't there' theory. That's biblical work that is.

the.dark.

What? If there is a person who in a state of religious ecstasy can intelligbly speak a real language otherwise unknown to that person it would be one of the biggest scientific discoveries EVER.

(in reply to RCdc)

RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 9:25:07 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
What? If there is a person who in a state of religious ecstasy can intelligbly speak a real language otherwise unknown to that person it would be one of the biggest scientific discoveries EVER.

Ya think?

the.dark.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 9:32:13 AM

cpK69

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Yes; thank you, Orion.

General...

I found it very beneficial to read the whole of chapter of Mark 16, to understand the quoted passage in the OP.

I got the impression, due to the disbelief of those who had been told he had risen; “in (new) tongues”, was meant as, words that introduced a foreign concept; in this case 'being risen from the dead/grave’.
Perhaps my use of concepts, for sake of interpretation, has caused an over simplified version of the message, but just for the sake of sharing, and discussion; I’d like to attempt to interpret.
Meant only as something to consider, not to believe upon word.

quote:

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

The good news would be that Jesus/truth has risen from the dead/grave.

quote:

16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

Whoever believes in truth, will be washed by it, and gain liberty

quote:

but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Will arrive at an unintended destination, and be trapped there.

quote:

17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons;

Through truth, they will dispel misconception and lies.

quote:

they will speak in new tongues;

They will speak of ideas foreign to what was previously believed possible.

quote:

18they will pick up snakes with their hands;

They will take on, without physical weapon, misconception and deceit.

quote:

and when they drink deadly poison,

Fully contemplate a false belief,

quote:

it will not hurt them at all;

They will not be mislead.

quote:

they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

They will speak of what they believe, intamately, causing the mislead to find truth.

....or something like that. As I said; only meant as what I believe was intended.

Kim

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(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 9:54:33 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

New tongues or more appropriately, new languages. How that can be interpreted is pretty open really. Could mean an entirely new language, could mean a language that is new to the person themself. It could even be that it mean that the person understands something differently, it might not be a language as in french, german or chinese. It might simply mean something is clear, that wasn't before or could be something like a science, or mathmatics formula. The discovery of dna or genetics could even be interpreted as it.

It's also good to note that Mark isn't in it's full body. It's shorter than the original text, has lots cut out and probably not written by Mark, but by Peter.

the.dark.

Hmmmm... *contemplates the idea of "new tongues"*

Kim

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(in reply to RCdc)

RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 10:17:29 AM

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That could be a good interpretation as well. Many old and ancient stories, whether they were religious based or not, often had several messages and lessons within them. They were done that way purposefully, so that through introspection and appplication to living a person would understand the lesson/s.

I am missing at least 75% of my personal research that I did many years ago, but if I remember correctly the aramaic word they translated for tongues, may mean ideal as well, but not positive. What is funny is that I found Eastern religions and philosophies easier to study and understand than the three Abrahamic ones.

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(in reply to cpK69)

RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 12:53:28 PM

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"Speaking in tongues" implies that they can actually *communicate* with each other.
So if one guy says; "Booblah, Googlia, Scoobydoo, dooppydoo" = " Stay away from my daughter or I'll shove this copperhead up your ass!"
The other guy would say; " Hoooooodgah boogaa Oogabooga voodoo on your soopy gras!" - " And you quit lookin' at my son's ass like that!"
It's only a "language" if you can communicate with another person I assume.
Or do they actually study Aramaic and Greek and speak to each other? And communicate?
If you're just going to spout jibberish that noone else can understand that's not "speaking in tongues" is it?
Anyone can do that, it doesn't mean anything.
Wouldn't that be a tower of babel?

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 1:09:06 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

That could be a good interpretation as well.

I thought the same of yours.

quote:

Many old and ancient stories, whether they were religious based or not, often had several messages and lessons within them. They were done that way purposefully, so that through introspection and appplication to living a person would understand the lesson/s.

I have been thinking that might be truth, without actually known for fact, and wondered what messages might exist in them, that one would be inclined to overlook as having meaning.

I’m afraid; my understanding of the various options is extremely limited, as well as scattered. To be honest, my strongest understanding of the topic comes from imagery, which I then attempt to reinforce with what has been written in other places. However, sometimes I stumble across a bit of information, and then notice it as an image, later.

Comparing notes for a broader perspective, is something I find very enjoyable.

Kim

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Humility is where weakness and strength meet and humanity begins.

one voice

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 7:45:00 PM

sleazybutterfly

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The teaching I received on tongues made a lot of sense to me. I hadn't really had it explained in such a way before, so this comes the closest to what I think the real use of it was.

They were given the gift of tongues in order to share the Word with people. There were many languages and most people at the time weren't able to speak more than their native tongue. When the gift would come upon the person teaching, the people that were listening heard the person in the language they knew, not in the language of the person speaking. It was a gift that was needed at the time in order to spread the Good News to different regions and peoples.

I do believe the gift exists today if it is needed. It's just not something that is called upon as much because there isn't the language barrier there was and people are able to learn in their own language.

If they are used for anything else is not my place to judge, I still leave that between them and God.

SB

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(in reply to cpK69)

RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 10:53:08 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

For more of an inside look, check out Salvation on Sand Mountain. The author took up snakes at one service. According to him, only the snake and he existed, and gradually he felt his consciousness dissolving into the world. It reminded me of some meditation practises.

It's not a puff piece either.

That's an extraordinary book. We tackled it in one of my book clubs a few years back, and every one of us found it fascinating. I highly recommend it.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/1/2009 11:50:51 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly
They were given the gift of tongues in order to share the Word with people.

An interesting idea. An overnight crass language course, learning about six hundred words and syntax, certainly is feasible.

(in reply to sleazybutterfly)

RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 12:10:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Looking more into my notes and references, "serpent" is often used to describe the source of sin, impure, or ungodly things. To look at the passage metaphorically it could mean "They shall be among those that sin, but shall be able to resist should they be tempted. They shall speak, and the word of God shall be heard and heal the impurities from those that suffer from the afflicitions of sin."

This is more in accordance with what I was raised with.

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RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 2:57:30 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Looking more into my notes and references, "serpent" is often used to describe the source of sin, impure, or ungodly things. To look at the passage metaphorically it could mean "They shall be among those that sin, but shall be able to resist should they be tempted. They shall speak, and the word of God shall be heard and heal the impurities from those that suffer from the afflicitions of sin."

This of course is just an interpretation using symbology, metaphore and parabels that are already established within Judea-Christian scripts. It may not be what is meant at all.

Quite. Entirely wrong. The snakes in this line represent immortality and perhaps also healing. These apostles had a message to tell to humanity: of life eternal after death, of healing - and they were healers. There are also some indications that holy men in those days had a number of miracle tricks to impress the lay people, one of them being to throw a stick on the ground and have it change into a live snake (I would dearly like to know how they managed a snake to behave like a stick).

So the line "they shall take up serpents" quite simply means: they shall be apostles and bring to all the people of the world the message of hope, of eternal life and of healing.

Now I do wonder: do some snake bites kill a bacterial and / or viral infection? Would it exterminate permanently my herpes infection? Is one snake bite all it takes to cure AIDS?

< Message edited by Rule -- 6/2/2009 3:01:13 AM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 7:25:46 AM

sleazybutterfly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly
They were given the gift of tongues in order to share the Word with people.

An interesting idea. An overnight crass language course, learning about six hundred words and syntax, certainly is feasible.

It had nothing to do with language learning, it was the people hearing in their native tongue even when the words spoken were a language they didn't understand.

I can understand in peoples dull and otherwise electronic lives it's hard to believe that miracles exist in any form. So, make fun if you want, I won't attempt to stop you. It's my belief though, and it makes the most logical sense in the gift category in which people were talking. So, I was contributing to an idea of it that most have never been taught in order to possibly put a different thought process out there.

SB

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~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to Rule)

RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 7:56:38 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly
It had nothing to do with language learning, it was the people hearing in their native tongue even when the words spoken were a language they didn't understand.

That is logistically and strategically implausible. It is far easier to give eleven guys a crass overnight language course that they will use daily, than to do the same to hundreds or thousands of people who only will benefit from it once.

I quote:

quote:

"In Acts 2:4 Luke uses a different adjective when he says, “they began to speak with other tongues.” The word “other” (Gr. heteros) simply means that they spoke in languages different from the normal language they were used to. The context substantiates this. Notice the surprised reaction on the part of the hearers—“And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galileans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?” (Acts 2:7,8). Every man heard them speak in his own language (Acts 2:6). Here the word “language” is the translation of dialekto from which our word “dialect” comes. The two words glossa (tongue) and dialektos (language) are used synonymously, making it obvious that the disciples were speaking in known languages other than the language native to them. In verses 9-11 the languages are then identified".

End quote.

Thus the apostles did not speak in the tongue of their own language, but in the tongues of the various languages of their listeners.

(in reply to sleazybutterfly)

RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 8:10:33 AM

sleazybutterfly

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I wish I could find the part in the Bible where the minister I was listening to pointed out. He had texts to back up what he said, but I admit it's been a couple of years ago and I honestly don't have the notes at my hand right now.

The gift occurred when the person teaching spoke in his own language. As he was speaking, the people listening heard the teaching in their language. That was part of the gift. There wasn't any learning of another language, it was hearing it in their own.

I can see why it's hard to understand what I am saying. It's not something we have witnessed ourselves in this day and age, but at the time it caught people in amazement. It was a miracle, and a true gift from the Spirit. It's also not the way I had ever been taught growing up, nor the way a lot of churches use it now. I do believe there are other gifts of tongues probably, but this is the one that I tend to lean toward as a main use.

I have all of the notes I took on that series of teachings, but like everything else in my house they are lost in the abyss. I do remember there was scripture to back it up, as I am not one to just take anyone's word on things having to do with my belief.

< Message edited by sleazybutterfly -- 6/2/2009 8:11:04 AM >

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Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to Rule)

RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 8:16:50 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazybutterfly
it's hard to believe that miracles exist in any form...It's my belief though

Whenever someone accuses the Divine of doing something that is a physical impossibility, they are in fact saying that the Divine is a Cheat. Is that the main tenet of your belief, that the Divine is a cheat?

(in reply to sleazybutterfly)

RE: '..and they shall take up serpents...' - 6/2/2009 8:17:37 AM

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quote:

I do remember there was scripture to back it up, as I am not one to just take anyone's word on things having to do with my belief.

Acts 2:6

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He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

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