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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 4:49:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

~FR~

We do have a man choosing to kill in a church in a clearly premeditated murder. Certainly that was chosen for its dramatic impact.

I would say possibly, not certainly. It could just as easily have been chosen because of the access it gave to the killer. Tiller was known to travel with a body guard, his clinic has bullet proof windows, etc. It may have been the only place the killer thought he could actually accomplish the deed and the church is a coincidence.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 4:51:32 PM

kdsub

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I can't agree with you more

Butch

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 4:57:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

No, I have been very consistent, my point was simple and concise - sometimes force is required to end violence, even if one does not believe in violence.

And no, it wasn't an endorsement of the killing which is the object of discussion, just a statement of fact.

I am sorry that you so completely misunderstand, but again - I have been quite clear.

...so, if you start a thread decrying state attempts to infringe the second amendment as you see it, it's a valid thing for me to post that bears do indeed shit in the woods and then to argue endlessly with people on the finer points. Just what was the point of saying that violence is sometimes necessary in a thread about the murder of a doctor in a church?

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 5:07:36 PM

kdsub

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Do my actions intimidate you?...his do not me let alone a whole nation...Now if there was a long series of murders spread over the many years ... with claims made by many Christian religious organizations for support for this murder...If there were documented widespread financial support for these organizations…if you had priests and ministers advocating murder from the pulpits…then… I would say his actions could be a symptom of terrorism.

Is that happing in this case?

This was a murderer plain and simple. Knowing my feelings on religion… If I were to all of a sudden go off the deep end and kill all those who disagree with me on CM… would you call it terrorism?

I’d say I was a flawed psychotic pitiful human...but my actions would be from flaws or sickness not true ideology.

It is not responsible or reasonable to take the actions of one man… or even a few men…over all the years since the legalization of abortion in America and assign their actions to millions simply because they may have a somewhat common religion.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/1/2009 5:09:13 PM >

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 5:14:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

It is not responsible or reasonable to take the actions of one man… or even a few men…over all the years since the legalization of abortion in America and assign their actions to millions simply because they may have a somewhat common religion.

...agreed........and NOBODY is doing that. Sheesh. This is just a strawman you've been banging the hell out of. Was the murderer a christian? Apparently so. Calling him a christian doesn't mean anyone is condemning all christians. We've been calling him a man too, but i don't see you banging on about alleged sexism.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 5:23:52 PM

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Interesting... seems O'Riley was ranting about this particular Doctor last week on his show. Literally, calling for his death. "Papa Bear" issued a Fatwa against Tiller, and now some brain dead GOP terrorist follows it to the letter... THIS is going to change things for the broadcast blowhards.

Funny, isn't it? You hear about right wing extremists bombing federal buildings, killing and beating illegal immagrants, bashing gays, and shooting doctors in church sanctuaries during services....

You don't hear much about the violent LEFT wing extremists, do you? What with their sit-ins, and their peceful protests inside their caged "free speech zones"...(Cindy Sheehan, and those protesting the war never fired any shots, did they?) Oh, I'm sure they must exist... but why is it that you see and hear that the GOP side seems to be the ones who foster and encourage domestic terrorisim against those they label their "enemy?" Considering the right wing owns the media, how is it that this trent isn't reversed? Is it because the truth is so obvious, that even they can't hide it?

Being a Republican = being a supporter of domestic terrorists.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 5:25:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Sheesh. This is just a strawman you've been banging the hell out of. Was the murderer a christian? Apparently so. Calling him a christian doesn't mean anyone is condemning all christians.

I don't think it's quite so entirely a straw man as you claim. What you say is true, but your thread title goes way beyond that. Your thread title labels the terrorism as "Christian".

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/1/2009 5:29:48 PM >

(in reply to philosophy)

RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 5:32:09 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

It is not responsible or reasonable to take the actions of one man… or even a few men…over all the years since the legalization of abortion in America and assign their actions to millions simply because they may have a somewhat common religion.

...agreed........and NOBODY is doing that. Sheesh. This is just a strawman you've been banging the hell out of. Was the murderer a christian? Apparently so. Calling him a christian doesn't mean anyone is condemning all christians. We've been calling him a man too, but i don't see you banging on about alleged sexism.

But saying… re: Christian terrorism?… for discussion is doing just that. Now maybe that was not your intent...but surely you should have realized the reaction to such a statement.

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 5:37:15 PM

kdsub

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Here you go...all of a sudden it is republicans... do you think there is not a very large democratic contingent of Christians against abortion... I guess it is only possible for republican Christians to be terrorists.

I guess phil you will need to change to… RE: Republican Christian Terrorism?

Now remember I am not republican or anti abortion…but truth is truth and fair is fair.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to MarsBonfire)

RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 6:07:18 PM

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It's easy enough for you to follow the thread back on your own phil, but here - I did it for you anyway.

How this began was, I made a reasonably simple and straightforward comment in response to another person's post here:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2638338

And the rest of this has been yourself and MM trying to muddy the water.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...so, if you start a thread decrying state attempts to infringe the second amendment as you see it, it's a valid thing for me to post that bears do indeed shit in the woods and then to argue endlessly with people on the finer points. Just what was the point of saying that violence is sometimes necessary in a thread about the murder of a doctor in a church?

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(in reply to philosophy)

RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 6:09:39 PM

Crush

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Actually we do, Mars...just not in the mainstream press. Eco-terrorists and Animal Rights groups* to name a couple.
Here is a link to them...bet you never heard of them either.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/fugitives/dt/fug_dt.htm
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2009/04/fbi-names-domestic-terrorist-to-most-wanted-list.html

ed: * ELF & ALF

< Message edited by Crush -- 6/1/2009 6:13:38 PM >

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 7:24:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

Interesting... seems O'Riley was ranting about this particular Doctor last week on his show. Literally, calling for his death. "Papa Bear" issued a Fatwa against Tiller, and now some brain dead GOP terrorist follows it to the letter... THIS is going to change things for the broadcast blowhards.

Looks like it's been going on for more than just a week.

"But there's no other person who bears as much responsibility for the characterization of Tiller as a savage on the loose, killing babies willy-nilly thanks to the collusion of would-be sophisticated cultural elites, a bought-and-paid-for governor and scofflaw secular journalists. Tiller's name first appeared on "The Factor" on Feb. 25, 2005. Since then, O'Reilly and his guest hosts have brought up the doctor on 28 more episodes, including as recently as April 27 of this year. Almost invariably, Tiller is described as "Tiller the Baby Killer."

Tiller, O'Reilly likes to say, "destroys fetuses for just about any reason right up until the birth date for $5,000." He's guilty of "Nazi stuff," said O'Reilly on June 8, 2005; a moral equivalent to NAMBLA and al-Qaida, he suggested on March 15, 2006. "This is the kind of stuff happened in Mao's China, Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Soviet Union," said O'Reilly on Nov. 9, 2006."

Salon.com

Whereas O'Reilly is directly responsible or not is of course impossible to prove -that fucking weasel will always get away with his disgusting hate mongering speech. But there's no denying that a) the abortion debate is deeply ensconced in Christian rherotic in America, more than anywhere else in the so-called 'Western and civilised world' (we demonstrate how 'civilised' we are more and more every day) and that b) people like O'Reilly (on pro-Republican networks) are instrumental in muddling the debate with scandal and obfuscation. There is definitely a political and religious link there.

Boycott the bastards.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 7:27:40 PM

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Only one of those people is wanted for murder, and that crime was committed in the late 70s.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 7:45:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

"Papa Bear" issued a Fatwa against Tiller, and now some brain dead GOP terrorist follows it to the letter...

What is your source for this claim about his political party affiliation?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/1/2009 7:49:41 PM >

(in reply to MarsBonfire)

RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 7:58:44 PM

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(fast reply)

Here's a link to a few videos by Randall Terry. He's not backing down on any of the rhetoric.

quote:

A day after Dr. George Tiller was gunned down, one of his most vehement critics expressed no regret for the inflammatory rhetoric with which he has repeatedly denounced the Kansas doctor.

In a hastily convened press conference at the National Press Club, Randall Terry, founder of the group Operation Rescue, said that his main concern in the wake of Tiller's death was not that the culture wars had become overheated, causing his fellow pro-life advocates to flinch from the debate.

"The pro-live movement right now is in a crossroads," said Terry. "We have become steadily and politically irrelevant. Our leadership is either retiring or dying and many of the new leaders do not have the fortitude or clarity of thought to not flinch in an hour of crisis like this."

"President Obama, the pro-abortion groups and their friends on Capitol Hill are going to try to browbeat the pro-life movement into surrounding our rhetoric, our actions, and our images," he added. "We must not flinch. We must not retreat a single inch."

Speaking in a small room to a handful of reporters, Terry called Tiller, "demonic" and "diabolical," a "mass murderer" who "reaped what he sowed." But he denied playing any role in contributing to the frenzied environment that led to the doctor's shooting.

Frankly, this endless mantra of murder, murder, murder about anything from defrosting embryos, to the morning after pill, to IUDs and birthcontrol pills should stop. If you endorse this approach, please don't have the gall to say "oh, he wasn't reacting to our stuff and we divorce ourselves from his actions."

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 8:00:43 PM

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And so, kitten, if someone murders O'Reilly tonight will that be Salon's fault for exercising their free speech rights so far as O'Reilly is concerned?

Or maybe it will be the murderer's fault, for pulling the trigger. Or even O'Reilly's fault for being such a controversial figure.

?

< Message edited by Sanity -- 6/1/2009 8:01:45 PM >

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 8:05:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Do my actions intimidate you?...his do not me let alone a whole nation...Now if there was a long series of murders spread over the many years ... with claims made by many Christian religious organizations for support for this murder...If there were documented widespread financial support for these organizations…if you had priests and ministers advocating murder from the pulpits…then… I would say his actions could be a symptom of terrorism.

Is that happing in this case?

YES! It is happening in this case
http://www.armyofgod.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_(USA)
http://www.earnedmedia.org/sftj0531.htm

The Operation Rescue senior policy advisor whose phone number was in Roeder's car when he was caught is Cheryl Sullenger, a convicted terrorist.
http://blogs.pitch.com/plog/2009/06/inside_the_car_of_the.php
http://www.conservapedia.com/Cheryl_Sullenger (source used for lulz value, reliable sources are also available if needed)

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 8:24:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Sheesh. This is just a strawman you've been banging the hell out of. Was the murderer a christian? Apparently so. Calling him a christian doesn't mean anyone is condemning all christians.

I don't think it's quite so entirely a straw man as you claim. What you say is true, but your thread title goes way beyond that. Your thread title labels the terrorism as "Christian".

K.

....riiight. 9/11 was, apparently, Islamic Terrorism. Terrorism in the name of a misguided view of what Islam is. It doesn't mean that all Muslims are terrorists. This incident can easily be characterised as terrorism.....and its impetus can also easily be characterised as stemming from a misguided view of christianity. It doesn't mean that all christians are terrorists either.
Amaxing how sensitive some are to the words christian and terrorism being put in the same sentence, when i don't see the same standard being applied to islamic and terrorism.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 8:41:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
And so, kitten, if someone murders O'Reilly tonight will that be Salon's fault for exercising their free speech rights so far as O'Reilly is concerned?

Don't make me go to sleep with impossible fantasies: it makes waking up too painful.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 8:53:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

Amaxing how sensitive some are to the words christian and terrorism being put in the same sentence, when i don't see the same standard being applied to islamic and terrorism.

I can't imagine why that would be. Let me scratch my head a while. I'll get back to you.

K.

(in reply to philosophy)

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