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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 9:11:04 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...thanks for that Domken. Do they have any religious affiliation? Are there any Muslim Freemen? Or aethist ones?

I strongly doubt it. They are tied pretty closely with the christian identity movement.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 9:12:41 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
A few cases of murder or attempted murder by deranged people over 25 years hardly justify even a discussion of the systematic coercion through terror, which is terrorism, as your subject line insinuates.

Please show me where the millions of both religious and non-religious anti-abortion advocates have ever condoned murder to further their agenda.

There is not even a hint of terrorism… and to suggest that there is insulting and provocative to the millions of good Americans struggling with this issue.

Rather than me read more carefully you should think more carefully before posting.

Butch



It was a high chance that it was going to be a terrorist act.  Asking a question as to whether it was a terrorist act was a fair one.  Citing a specific religion or organisation wasn't and was IMO invidious.
 
But like I said, it lays on both the writer and the reader to communicate and work it out.
 
the.dark.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 9:22:37 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		There is a very big difference between a terrorist act and terrorism... do you agree?

Butch


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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 9:28:35 AM   
maybemaybenot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...thanks for that Domken. Do they have any religious affiliation? Are there any Muslim Freemen? Or aethist ones?

I strongly doubt it. They are tied pretty closely with the christian identity movement.


Yep, and again, the Christian Identity Movement is a White Supremicist Organization. It's a euphimism for hate.
This movement is # 1 on the FBI's most dangerous hate groups list. They are closely affiliated with the KKK,Aryan Nation,and The Order.

So, no there are no Jews or Muslims in the gang. Those are some of their targets for their hatred, just as most Christians are. As most Christians do not subscribe to their beliefs

                           mbmbn

< Message edited by maybemaybenot -- 6/1/2009 9:30:46 AM >

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 9:31:19 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

There is a very big difference between a terrorist act and terrorism... do you agree?

Butch



A terrorist uses fear of or actual violence against a civillian for political or religious goals.   Are the two above different yes and no.  The intents the same.  Ones a threat and ones actuality.
 
the.dark.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 9:33:38 AM   
DavanKael


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Status: offline 		It's a shame that someone in America where we're supposed to have freedom of choice is killed for doing their job. 
  Davan
(Who really strenuously objects to people trying to relegate me or any other woman to being a walking incubator if that is not my or our wish!)

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 9:36:43 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		If you think that way and phil as well then I can understand somewhat. But In my mind and I'll bet most anti abortionist Americans there is no systematic application of terror through murder to advance their agenda.

Any act can be considered a terrorist act... killing for drugs...passion...anything. But none of those would be considered terrorism...and I don't believe it is reasonable to call this murder terrorism either.

Butch


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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 9:39:29 AM   
Zevar


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quote:

" The morning news reported http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/06/01/MNVQ17UFDB.DTL

let me see did I get the idealogy correct?

Do not abort life. RIGHT TO LIFE

Except in instances of killing the Dr. who has performed abortions. Oh right don't forget wait until the Dr. is in Church before you kill him?

Any thoughts?

I wish you well,
~ Zevar ~

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FR:

The above was my thread I began this morning after reading the news. I was pointed to this discussion by Mod12. I sent my thanks to Mod12 and now have the time to contribute my take on this tragedy.

In my quoted words above I was noting how the illogical thoughts of some individuals who claim to be ardent about "Right to Life" then do what they adamently oppose. I fail to see the logic in that sort of thinking. Actually with the indoctrination of millions of people surrounding "Right to Life" issues does come with, as with all "causes", a fringe element that tend to act on "god willed" tendencies and "voices."

As I reasoned quietly this morning as best I could about this tragedy I recalled the assination of John Lennon and Dr. King and others who were significant in effecting change on a collective level for society. They too suffered at the hands of disturbed individuals that thought their actions were ridding this world of some "scum element of society" and claimed to have been guided by " god willed" tendencies.

How terribly wrong these misguided people were. As were the actions of whoever decided to take the life of a Dr. while he was in Church no less minding his own business with like minded people I assume. Surely solely he was killed for practicing what he felt was his contribution to society in performing "safe abortion practices" and more than likely in the name of their "jesus." The nonsense that has been attributed to Jesus never ceases to amaze me of the ignorance in which the ideology is bred where misguided people claim to be on some kind of mission from their "jesus". Oh well I am but a heathen to these "Christians". Makes me wonder about all of this religious frenzy stuff.

:::shakes head and goes about the tasks of my day:::

Be safe All...

I wish you well,
~Zevar~


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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 9:44:43 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If you think that way and phil as well then I can understand somewhat. But In my mind and I'll bet most anti abortionist Americans there is no systematic application of terror through murder to advance their agenda.

Any act can be considered a terrorist act... killing for drugs...passion...anything. But none of those would be considered terrorism...and I don't believe it is reasonable to call this murder terrorism either.

Butch



Terrorism isn't about death or murder.  It is about an act that has a religious or political agenda.  So yes, any of the above could be acts of terrorism if it instils public fear.
I don't believe that Phil was unfair or misleading in questioning terrorist intent, but I do find it unfair to single out christianity, when christians can be and obviously were the target.
 
the.dark.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 9:56:03 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I'll bet most anti abortionist Americans there is no systematic application of terror through murder to advance their agenda.


....and most Muslims don't advocate violence to further their ends. Yet Islamic Terrorism exists. You're cutting slack for the pro-life movement that isn't cut for Islam.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 9:59:33 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Honestly Phil, what was the difference between the threads title and what a red top would print to get readers to read or respond?

 
...the question mark.
 
The recent thread about the store keeper who shot the (possibly unconscious) robber could have been titled 'Justified?'. By the logic you're applying, such a title presupposes that the OP thinks it is justified. Christian terrorism? Is it terrorism? Is it Christian based? The question mark is important.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 10:01:24 AM   
Apocalypso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
It was a high chance that it was going to be a terrorist act.  Asking a question as to whether it was a terrorist act was a fair one.  Citing a specific religion or organisation wasn't and was IMO invidious.


Would it be unfair to describe the Red Army Faction as communist terrorists?  I don't really see the issue with describing an act as one of Christian terrorism, when it appears that religious belief was a significant motivating factor.

Naturally, this in no way means that the vast majority of Christians have any responsibility for this act.  But to simply describe it as "terrorism" removes its underlying ideological motivation for me.

In the same way, from an opposite extreme, I don't think we should ignore the fact that a lot of civil rights activists were motivated by Christianity.


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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 10:18:52 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

In the same way, from an opposite extreme, I don't think we should ignore the fact that a lot of civil rights activists were motivated by Christianity.


Nor that their opponents were also Christians, even using burning crosses as their primary symbol. Christians who burned churches too.

A red herring.




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/1/2009 10:22:12 AM >

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 10:23:51 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Honestly Phil, what was the difference between the threads title and what a red top would print to get readers to read or respond?

 
...the question mark.
 
The recent thread about the store keeper who shot the (possibly unconscious) robber could have been titled 'Justified?'. By the logic you're applying, such a title presupposes that the OP thinks it is justified. Christian terrorism? Is it terrorism? Is it Christian based? The question mark is important.


I still see it as invidious and tabloidy.  The post could have been entitled about what it actually was and then questioned and expounded on.  You chose not too, which was cool, but when I first saw it, I had no idea it was about some single guy going to shoot another.  I thought, great, another thread about another terrorist attack by some religious fanatics.  I then go on to find out its about a christian man being murdered by someone, intent as yet (at that point) unknown.
It was sensationalist and typical tabloid journalism.  I don't have an issue with it, I just think it was unfair to blame it all on the reader (butch) and not accept some of the responsibility.
 
Question mark or no question mark.
 
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 6/1/2009 10:24:39 AM >

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 10:29:54 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso
I don't really see the issue with describing an act as one of Christian terrorism, when it appears that religious belief was a significant motivating factor.



Neither do I.  But the intent hadn't been established at that time.  It was like one of those vague titles that you have no idea what its about because it simply says 'Help' - it makes you open the thread.  Like I said, I don't really have an issue as such with the thread or even questioning whether it was terrorist or christian motivation or what.  But the title was vague and it was a 'crowd puller'.  It rocked from an advertising POV, which is cool.  I just found it a cop out to blame the readers only, and not what was written, that's all.
 
the.dark.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 10:56:47 AM   
Sanity


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Your post doesn't follow, it's incoherent in the context of what was being discussed. The law has nothing to do with my analogy...

The thought which I was responding to was that its hypocritical to use death to stop a killer, which is just silly. Lethal force is used to save the lives of the innocent every day.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'd immediately call 911. First, I need help, ASAP. And second, I need professionals trained to effectively handle such situations. Lots of other people are already there, and the situation is out of control.

What I wouldn't do is take the law into my own hands, start cruising around town looking for violent people--especially if they're "violent" only by my own narrow definition (hypothetically per the above quoted proposed scenario).

In your scenario, this "someone" is breaking the law. That's the difference, and that's why your analogy doesn't fit.





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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 11:00:12 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Your post doesn't follow, it's incoherent in the context of what was being discussed. The law has nothing to do with my analogy...

The thought which I was responding to was that its hypocritical to use death to stop a killer, which is just silly. Lethal force is used to save the lives of the innocent every day.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'd immediately call 911. First, I need help, ASAP. And second, I need professionals trained to effectively handle such situations. Lots of other people are already there, and the situation is out of control.

What I wouldn't do is take the law into my own hands, start cruising around town looking for violent people--especially if they're "violent" only by my own narrow definition (hypothetically per the above quoted proposed scenario).

In your scenario, this "someone" is breaking the law. That's the difference, and that's why your analogy doesn't fit.




It has everything to do with it. We are, after all, discussing an illegal act done in the name of self-righteousness to end a legal act. Your analogy proposes legally acting to stop an illegal act--exactly the opposite.



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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 11:01:08 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Lethal force is used to save the lives of the innocent every day.




...as is non-lethal force. You've apparently working on the assumption that there are only two choices; do nothing or use lethal force.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 11:01:30 AM   
Sanity


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Again, law wasn't at issue. Hypocrisy was.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: christian terrorism? - 6/1/2009 11:04:47 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Terrorism is a concerted…systematic use of terror to coerce one group into following an agenda.

This was no such thing…even close… it was plain and simple murder… There is no concerted effort…if there was show me… there no systematic acts of terror…if there were show me… this is murder or a single terrorist act but not terrorism by Christians in any form.

Words do mean something and you can’t just change them to fit a view..

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/1/2009 11:12:05 AM >

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 100
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