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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/13/2009 12:47:42 AM

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I agree with Jezebel... as a Jew, I certainly am not dying for any of you... fuck that noise. And I don't think that most of the Holocaust victims died for Christians... I'm pretty sure they were killed against their will. But just to clarify some general points... yup, definitely the Romans that killed Jesus... not the Jews. And to expand on that, even if it was the Jews, it sure wasn't any of those living today... it would be like condemning twenty year old Germans for what the Nazi's did... fail. As for the United States being allowed to try to sway Israel... of course the United States is allowed to try to use their economic strength to sway other countries, and they do it in other cases than Israel. But Israel is also free to disagree with the United States. Let us not forget that the United States is trillions in debt to China, does that mean that we should become communist so they don't call in the debt? As for MissSepp saying that Israel never defeated Hezbullah, well Hezbullah acts like a terrorist organization in many ways... it is like saying that the U.S. never defeated al-Quada.
For the record, it doesn't seem to me like much anti-semitism is going on here, just some people that are woefully uninformed about international politics and history.

(in reply to BadJezebel)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/13/2009 2:07:31 AM

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quote:

Jerusalem — Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has issued an unprecedented statement clarifying President Barack Obama’s demands for Israel to stop expanding Jewish communities in areas it acquired following the 1967 Six-Day War, including Jerusalem.

Israeli Government Press Director Daniel Seamen reacted to this Obama administration statement by saying: “I have to admire the residents of Iroquois territory for assuming that they have a right to determine where Jews should live in Jerusalem.”

Of all the... wow. Just... wow.

You know what? Just about everyone in the US agrees that what we did to the natives was horrible, and reprehensible. We are not a good role model, especially when you look at our history. But that doesn't mean we can't share the lessons we've learned.

And if the lesson you want to learn from US history is "it's okay to wipe out an entire culture, take everything that belongs to them, and then gather them together into smaller and smaller areas to exterminate them, all the while claiming that they bring it upon themselves, and are a clear threat", then you have learned nothing from your own history. How long ago was it that it was your turn up against the wall? Sixty years? Long enough for some of the people excusing this action to still be alive. The ashes of six million innocent people can buy a whole hell of a lot of moral high ground, I'll grant you that - but how do you think they'd feel about you spending it this way?

The man responsible for your own tragedy had an image of a Native American in his office, to remind him of the Americans' "fine example" in dealing with their own need for lebensraum. I wonder how comfortable you all are, standing in his metaphorical company.

(in reply to subrob1967)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/13/2009 9:10:27 PM

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I just can't believe that right now the Jews are still claiming they should have Israel because God gave it to them.
What kind of argument is that?

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/13/2009 9:23:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

I just can't believe that right now the Jews are still claiming they should have Israel because God gave it to them.
What kind of argument is that?

Historically, it's the most common argument there is.

Here in the US we called it "manifest destiny", and we used it to excuse the slaughter of millions of Native Americans.

The thing is, the idea that there's something wrong with genocide is a very recent concept. The problem with Israel is that they owe their existence to the idea that genocide is evil, so falling back on the "old ways" of doing things feels a bit hypocritical in their specific case.

(in reply to MissSepphora1)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/14/2009 1:11:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

I just can't believe that right now the Jews are still claiming they should have Israel because God gave it to them.
What kind of argument is that?

Historically, it's the most common argument there is.

Here in the US we called it "manifest destiny", and we used it to excuse the slaughter of millions of Native Americans.

The thing is, the idea that there's something wrong with genocide is a very recent concept. The problem with Israel is that they owe their existence to the idea that genocide is evil, so falling back on the "old ways" of doing things feels a bit hypocritical in their specific case.

umm... wrong... Israel was created because other nations didn't want to take in any refugee Jews... including the US. And most Jews do not claim Israel because God gave it to them... it's because it was theirs thousands of years ago, forcefully taken from them, and then they had the clout to take it back... God doesn't really figure into the equation for most, except that he gave them enough strength to hold onto it. And Israel does not owe its existance to genocide, it owes its 2000 year setback to anti-semitism... two sides to the coin my friends.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/14/2009 6:28:08 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DJCatoose

umm... wrong... Israel was created because other nations didn't want to take in any refugee Jews... including the US. And most Jews do not claim Israel because God gave it to them... it's because it was theirs thousands of years ago, forcefully taken from them, and then they had the clout to take it back... God doesn't really figure into the equation for most, except that he gave them enough strength to hold onto it. And Israel does not owe its existance to genocide, it owes its 2000 year setback to anti-semitism... two sides to the coin my friends.

There was a fascinating documentary on BBC Radio 4 last autumn about the aftermath of the Bergen Belsen concentration camp. The occupying allied army did its best to nurse the former prisoners back to health, in readiness for them to go home to their countries of origin in Europe - with almost every country represented.

The former prisoners however refused, saying that they were not Polish, Romanian, French etc but that they were a distinct nation, Jews, and that they wanted to go home alright, but back to what had been home for their ancestors and what was even before the holocaust being prepared as a homeland for the Jews.

The British army officer in charge was perplexed - he had spent five years fighting against the idea of the nazis that the Jews were an alien nation in the countries they had come to inhabit, yet here they were now apparently insisting that the nazis were right.

Neither was it a happy homecoming for those former prisoners who did go home to their country of origin. Jews returning home found themselves most unwelcome with comments from newly liberated former compatriots along the lines of "we thought we'd got rid of you dirty Jews, fk off back" and many being killed out of hand by the same people who had just recently finished resisting the nazis.

Ultimately it is strength of arms which determines who has right to anything. In this way, the emigrees and those who had moved to Palestine before the war and their descendants have as much right to Israel as any other people has to their homeland. But this is a dangerous way of establishing legitimacy for it also legitimises Palestinian resistance, which in many ways learned its "terrorist" methods from the post war Jewish immigrants' struggle.

Meanwhile the historical argument is purely trash. If such an argument had any merit then I ought to be shipped off to Denmark and my home given over to some Welsh person - or alternatively I ought to be able to lay legitimate claim to some part of Denmark. Denmark would be overfull mind, what with all the descendants of the Anglo Saxons and Danes that are nowadays found worldwide similarly sent home or laying their claims.

As for the "2000 year setback", it was the Romans who expelled the Jews - the pagan Romans, for not conforming and submitting to Roman norms. Anti-Semitism of this time (and in former times in relation to Egypt, Babylon, Assyria et al) is not what we would understand as such and is ill described as such; it was rather an annoyance at the Jewish insistence of the primacy of their God and hence resistance to their conquerors than accusation of their alleged role in undermining the world order as in later times - that is it was military action as one might undertake against any rebellious provincial population in former times, (right up to the 18th century in the Scottish Highlands for instance) including their removal and forced migration.

The Empire only became properly Christian some centures after that expulsion, and from there does anti-Semitism as we understand it derive, after all its a bit awkward for any Roman to have the blood of his God on his hands, so it must have been those Jews mustnt it? This put Jewish people in a uniquely invidious position over centuries culminating in the holocaust because it made of them not a rebellious provincial population but an "enemy within".

E

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(in reply to DJCatoose)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/14/2009 11:58:59 AM

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You make good points, but I think you missed the point of my post. As for the documentary you mentioned, I haven't seen/heard of it, but just because Jews wanted their own homeland doesn't mean that other countries were accepting them... many were not. There was often a maximum number of Jews that other European countries would accept into their borders. As for the 2000 year setback I mentioned, it was mostly to show how ridiculous it is to say that Israel owes its existence to the genocide of 6 million Jews. I think you would be hard pressed to find a Jew that would say the Holocaust was worth the creation of Israel, which was my point, although not very well stated I suppose.
As for the historical arguement, although there are many holes in it, it is definately not "pure trash." The point is, although you have a Danish background, even though you don't live there, your people have a homeland. The Jewish nation has historically been one without a homeland, hence the creation of Israel. There are plenty of non-Jews that live in Israel who do not have their homes taken so a Jew can live there, but now the Jews have a place to point to as their own. As for your point about you being allowed to go back to Denmark, you have to agree that there is less bigotry that you faced compared to that of a Jewish person.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/14/2009 12:02:34 PM

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Lady Ellen you are right, in my opinion, that it is force of arms [and this alone] that gives people a right to create a nation however I do not believe this is a dangerous method of establishing legitimacy. I believe that Palastine has as much right to attempt to destroy Israel as Israel has a right to exist that might not bring peace, for the moment, but I believe it is perfectly fair.

(in reply to nelly33)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/14/2009 12:08:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DJCatoose

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

I just can't believe that right now the Jews are still claiming they should have Israel because God gave it to them.
What kind of argument is that?

Historically, it's the most common argument there is.

Here in the US we called it "manifest destiny", and we used it to excuse the slaughter of millions of Native Americans.

The thing is, the idea that there's something wrong with genocide is a very recent concept. The problem with Israel is that they owe their existence to the idea that genocide is evil, so falling back on the "old ways" of doing things feels a bit hypocritical in their specific case.

umm... wrong... Israel was created because other nations didn't want to take in any refugee Jews... including the US. And most Jews do not claim Israel because God gave it to them... it's because it was theirs thousands of years ago, forcefully taken from them, and then they had the clout to take it back... God doesn't really figure into the equation for most, except that he gave them enough strength to hold onto it. And Israel does not owe its existance to genocide, it owes its 2000 year setback to anti-semitism... two sides to the coin my friends.

Yes. There valuables. Priceless art that was never returned. Money stashed in swiss banks was never given back and a host of other things. Many polish jews tried to return to their homes that were being lived in by others. They were spat on and told they wish Hitler had finished the job.

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(in reply to DJCatoose)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/14/2009 12:11:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Lady Ellen you are right, in my opinion, that it is force of arms [and this alone] that gives people a right to create a nation however I do not believe this is a dangerous method of establishing legitimacy. I believe that Palastine has as much right to attempt to destroy Israel as Israel has a right to exist that might not bring peace, for the moment, but I believe it is perfectly fair.

Now I am not try to twist your words here, but by saying that Palestine has a right to destroy Israel, it sounds like you are condoning genocide. I don't think any people has a "right" do destroy another people. To exterminate the nation of Israel, well there are more Jews in Israel than there were that died in the Holocaust... excuse me if I'm misinterpreting you, but Israel has never sworn to destroy its neighbors... many nations and groups in the Middle East have sworn to destroy Israel... there is a reason that everybody in Israel has to join the army... it's because it is necessary.

(in reply to Starbuck09)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/14/2009 12:20:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Lady Ellen you are right, in my opinion, that it is force of arms [and this alone] that gives people a right to create a nation however I do not believe this is a dangerous method of establishing legitimacy. I believe that Palastine has as much right to attempt to destroy Israel as Israel has a right to exist that might not bring peace, for the moment, but I believe it is perfectly fair.

Now I am not try to twist your words here, but by saying that Palestine has a right to destroy Israel, it sounds like you are condoning genocide. I don't think any people has a "right" do destroy another people. To exterminate the nation of Israel, well there are more Jews in Israel than there were that died in the Holocaust... excuse me if I'm misinterpreting you, but Israel has never sworn to destroy its neighbors... many nations and groups in the Middle East have sworn to destroy Israel... there is a reason that everybody in Israel has to join the army... it's because it is necessary.

To be fair, the previous poster said "right to attempt to destroy Israel". This is realpolitik at it's finest - "you two go ahead and fight it out, and we'll back the winners."

(in reply to nelly33)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/14/2009 12:20:27 PM

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No problem Nelly i'll explain my views in a little more in depth. I do indeed believe palastine has the right to commit genocide. I personally think such an act woul;d be appaling but if, as a nation, palastine attempted to do that the only thing that would stop them as you recognize is the Israeli army. I disagree very strongly with what the Nazi leadership did to the races of people that they deemed unworthy of life however my moral revulsion alone is worthless. Quite clearly the Nazis did have the right to behave how they wished as they did so, what is important is that we had the equal right to stop them. This might sound harsh and somewhat bleak and cynical but I don't believe it is. The one reason the U.N. is so poor at affecting events is that [for numerous reasons] it is loathe to take action and that, I am afraid, is the only true ''right'' in the world. Everything else is a privillege with different nomenclature.

(in reply to nelly33)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/14/2009 12:40:03 PM

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Well I'm afraid that if you believe that the Nazi's had the right to commit genocide, then we have nothing really to talk about, as I doubt I will be able to change your mind. I will just say that you are basically saying that terrorists also have the right to do what they do, and that might makes right. I feel this is a terrible way to live, and the very reason that so many terrible things happen in the world. For the record, the UN is definately not a perfect community, but it is reasonable if we want nations to still have their sovereignty. Other than that, I just feel that the idea that a nation has the right to do whatever they want as long as the other people are powerless is ludicrous. According to that thought, slavery is justified, that Pol-Pot was in the right, that Darfur is not a problem... I have no idea how to convince you how wrong that I feel you are.

(in reply to Starbuck09)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/14/2009 1:01:56 PM

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Who decides what is right nelly? Nazi Germany was not wrong I believe it was wrong there is a difference. You beleve the nazis did not have th right to comit genocide? Then how is it possble that they were able to so on such a horrifying scale? It was because they decided to do so nothing else. And how was it that they were stopped? Did thy listen to the moral argument of the allies did the Werhmacht lay down their arms as they recognised the ''rights'' of the people they subjugated? No they were stopped as millions upon million of people were prepared to sacrifice their lives to defeat them. I personally believe that many many forms of government are abhorent and that there is a plethora of ideals and moral codes that sicken me, however these are my PERSONAL beliefs they are not resonant with everyone. I am going to Sandhurst in September and unless their is a tidal change in British foreighn policy I will be deployed to Afghanistan. I will fight therebecause I believe the Taliban cannot be allowed to retake power. But that is my own belief the Taliban obviously feel very differently and to deny them the right to fight simply because I feel their ideals are flawed is a disgusting concept. It is no differnt to the Israel/Palastine conflict. Israel has every reason to fight and conquer land but in turn Palastine is quite at liberty to do so as well. Before the U.N. countries were able to retain their sovereignity that organisation does not safeguard nationhood nelly.

(in reply to nelly33)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/14/2009 2:41:44 PM

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~FR~

I do not believe people understand the word "rights". The only right we are born with, is to do as we wish until someone stronger prevents or limits is from that. In that basic essence Starbuck is correct.

Also, if a single Palestinian was killed or dislocated from their land, to accomidate the growth of Israel, then that validates any form of violence in reprisal. The number of people having the violence done to them, just mitigates the extent of the violence.

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/14/2009 4:54:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

I do not believe people understand the word "rights". The only right we are born with, is to do as we wish until someone stronger prevents or limits is from that. In that basic essence Starbuck is correct.

This isnt always the case. I said in a previous thread that civillised society has afforded some natural rights for people. These rights aply equally, from birth, for every citizen. Even your own constitution does this. I know you will say that the constitution was brought about by the use of arms, but the concept still remains valid.

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/14/2009 5:14:11 PM

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If it is a natural right, then society would not have to afford it to anyone. The right of consequence is about the only natural right I can think of. It required force to create the United States, and sometimes it requires force to enforce the Constitution, or the rule of law. Without force, what is left to compel people to do what the law says? Not everyone has the same principles and morals, so a Social Contract is established. That social contract is an artifice created by society. Without the force of society, whether it is social or physical, that contract is only honored by those who's principles match it.

What concept do you say is valid?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

I do not believe people understand the word "rights". The only right we are born with, is to do as we wish until someone stronger prevents or limits is from that. In that basic essence Starbuck is correct.

This isnt always the case. I said in a previous thread that civillised society has afforded some natural rights for people. These rights aply equally, from birth, for every citizen. Even your own constitution does this. I know you will say that the constitution was brought about by the use of arms, but the concept still remains valid.

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/14/2009 8:33:58 PM

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The UN did a lot to accomodate Israel's existence. Jews did not by right or might take Israel. The UN paid the Palestinians to leave their land.
The Palestinians do not have any right to commit genocide, just as the jews do not either. But the jews have more of the "might" to accomplish this than the Palestinains do. And they are coming close to just that.

But... did you ever wonder, Nelly, why for nearly 2000 years the Jews wandered without a homeland? Isn't it odd that Jesus was killed about the same time the Jews were exiled? Almost as if God was unhappy with them and took their homeland back?

Isn't that a bit of a coincidence that is hard to ignore?

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/14/2009 8:49:42 PM

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Thanks for the belly laugh, I really needed that.

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(in reply to MissSepphora1)

RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/14/2009 10:26:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

The UN did a lot to accomodate Israel's existence. Jews did not by right or might take Israel. The UN paid the Palestinians to leave their land.
The Palestinians do not have any right to commit genocide, just as the jews do not either. But the jews have more of the "might" to accomplish this than the Palestinains do. And they are coming close to just that.

But... did you ever wonder, Nelly, why for nearly 2000 years the Jews wandered without a homeland? Isn't it odd that Jesus was killed about the same time the Jews were exiled? Almost as if God was unhappy with them and took their homeland back?

Isn't that a bit of a coincidence that is hard to ignore?

Are you impying that jews killed jesus and god was unhappy? First off, as stated before the romans killed jesus.

The rest is just happy horseshit.

Its weird that you could give such almost factual statements about jews in Israel and then back it up with some spiritual B.S. and woo woo Superstition/Spritual retribution which by the way is a really narrow view of god anyway.

< Message edited by lusciouslips19 -- 6/14/2009 10:27:46 PM >

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(in reply to MissSepphora1)

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