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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/14/2009 11:06:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

But... did you ever wonder, Nelly, why for nearly 2000 years the Jews wandered without a homeland? Isn't it odd that Jesus was killed about the same time the Jews were exiled? Almost as if God was unhappy with them and took their homeland back?

Isn't that a bit of a coincidence that is hard to ignore?

Are you impying that jews killed jesus and god was unhappy? First off, as stated before the romans killed jesus.

The rest is just happy horseshit.

Its weird that you could give such almost factual statements about jews in Israel and then back it up with some spiritual B.S. and woo woo Superstition/Spritual retribution which by the way is a really narrow view of god anyway.

agreed LL19

However it is actually no coincidence - as had happened with relation to every foreign Empire that came to conquer the Jews, the Romans found them a difficult bunch to deal with. They'd been playing up for years before the (alleged) execution of Jesus and were playing up for some years afterwards too - Jesus (may have) got his primarily because the Romans were fearful of yet another rebellion and thought him a likely leader. In other words, the rest aside, Jesus can be seen to have arose out of and to have been part of a history of revolting peasants in the territory for around a century.

When, decades into ongoing rebellion the Romans' patience was exhausted, they expelled the inhabitants - not some terrible punishment from God or anything, but simply the sort of time honoured policing action undertaken by Empires forever. Sort of "if you cant beat 'em, (dis)join them", and practised by the English with respect to the Highland Scots (the clearances), and more recently by Stalin with respect to rebellious Ukrainian populations - off to Siberia is a variation on the theme.

Just imagine, if the Romans hadnt taken up Christianity......

E

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/15/2009 9:40:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

The UN did a lot to accomodate Israel's existence. Jews did not by right or might take Israel. The UN paid the Palestinians to leave their land.
The Palestinians do not have any right to commit genocide, just as the jews do not either. But the jews have more of the "might" to accomplish this than the Palestinains do. And they are coming close to just that.

But... did you ever wonder, Nelly, why for nearly 2000 years the Jews wandered without a homeland? Isn't it odd that Jesus was killed about the same time the Jews were exiled? Almost as if God was unhappy with them and took their homeland back?

Isn't that a bit of a coincidence that is hard to ignore?

um... retarded much? get your gd facts straight... you are wrong, pure and simple, as has been pointed out time after time. The Jews did not kill Jesus, period. And the Jews are not committing any type of genocide... learn definitions... I try not to take this personally, because i know that nobody is personally attacking me, but the Jews didn't kill Jesus. LEARN IT

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/15/2009 10:21:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

The UN did a lot to accomodate Israel's existence. Jews did not by right or might take Israel. The UN paid the Palestinians to leave their land.
The Palestinians do not have any right to commit genocide, just as the jews do not either. But the jews have more of the "might" to accomplish this than the Palestinains do. And they are coming close to just that.

But... did you ever wonder, Nelly, why for nearly 2000 years the Jews wandered without a homeland? Isn't it odd that Jesus was killed about the same time the Jews were exiled? Almost as if God was unhappy with them and took their homeland back?

Isn't that a bit of a coincidence that is hard to ignore?

um... retarded much? get your gd facts straight... you are wrong, pure and simple, as has been pointed out time after time. The Jews did not kill Jesus, period. And the Jews are not committing any type of genocide... learn definitions... I try not to take this personally, because i know that nobody is personally attacking me, but the Jews didn't kill Jesus. LEARN IT

We dont have horns neither!

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/15/2009 10:34:02 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

If it is a natural right, then society would not have to afford it to anyone. The right of consequence is about the only natural right I can think of. It required force to create the United States, and sometimes it requires force to enforce the Constitution, or the rule of law. Without force, what is left to compel people to do what the law says? Not everyone has the same principles and morals, so a Social Contract is established. That social contract is an artifice created by society. Without the force of society, whether it is social or physical, that contract is only honored by those who's principles match it.

What concept do you say is valid?

I agree force is needed when others dont hold to the same principals as mainstream society. I just dont think that because someone acts outside of the law, that rights dont exist. One right you have from birth, is the right of due process under the law. There are many similar rights, such as the one about cruel and unusual punishments, that apply from birth. The Declaration of Independence states all men are equal ect ect. This is recognised as a natural right, as was the right to have a revolution, as I recall.

My question to you is how many years does society have to believe in natural rights, until they become so. It seems to me many nations have rights going back hundreds of years, and in some cases over a thousand years. Surely after such a time span, these rights have become natural, regardless that they sometimes need defending ?

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/15/2009 12:07:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I agree force is needed when others dont hold to the same principals as mainstream society. I just dont think that because someone acts outside of the law, that rights dont exist. One right you have from birth, is the right of due process under the law. There are many similar rights, such as the one about cruel and unusual punishments, that apply from birth. The Declaration of Independence states all men are equal ect ect. This is recognised as a natural right, as was the right to have a revolution, as I recall.

The right of due process is a man made construct. It is enforced by Man. It can be applied in some countries and not in others. It can be applied in some situations and not in others. The Declaration of Independence and declare anything it wishes. They are not natural rights. A natural right would be something that everyone is born with, and cannot be removed, except by death. Inalienable, natural, what ever you want to call it. These privileges are underpinned by force.

quote:

My question to you is how many years does society have to believe in natural rights, until they become so. It seems to me many nations have rights going back hundreds of years, and in some cases over a thousand years. Surely after such a time span, these rights have become natural, regardless that they sometimes need defending ?

How many years to believe the Earth is flat? The same amount. If it needs force to defend it, then it is not a right. Try reading Plato, or Socrates and then calculate the years and the behaviors that society still exhibits. It will take a evolution of behavior (and there is a theory on this) to make all of this so.

Now we have derailed this topic enough, so I will refocus on this topic or if you want to start another I will be happy to contribute.

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/15/2009 1:10:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

We dont have horns neither!

Now that I must query; there is a statue of Moses in Kidderminster parish church and he has horns......!

Quite why no one has been able to tell me to date, but there it is

E

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/15/2009 1:54:38 PM

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I believe the horns reference comes from someone(I cant say who) translated the hebrew torah and a word with one slight vowel accent difference brought about this mistake. The word translated wrong from one accent mark translated moses as having horns as opposed to rays of light coming from his head!

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/15/2009 1:57:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

Are you impying that jews killed jesus and god was unhappy? First off, as stated before the romans killed jesus.

Doesn't really matter to me, as long as some one killed him. I mean think about it. "Jesus was aquitted for your sins"?

It just doesn't work that way. Someone had to kill him for the whole salvation plan to happen.

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/15/2009 2:04:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

I believe the horns reference comes from someone(I cant say who) translated the hebrew torah and a word with one slight vowel accent difference brought about this mistake. The word translated wrong from one accent mark translated moses as having horns as opposed to rays of light coming from his head!

ah! now thats interesting! thanks!

E

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/15/2009 3:50:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

Are you impying that jews killed jesus and god was unhappy? First off, as stated before the romans killed jesus.

Doesn't really matter to me, as long as some one killed him. I mean think about it. "Jesus was aquitted for your sins"?

It just doesn't work that way. Someone had to kill him for the whole salvation plan to happen.

Put another way: God killed Jesus.

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/15/2009 4:13:39 PM

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I do find satisfaction that all these people pray to a first century rabbi!!!!

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/15/2009 6:39:54 PM

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Jesus was as much as rabbi as Martin Luther was a catholic priest.

And why would I take a jew's view of who killed Jesus over the New Testament view of who killed Jesus? Why did the jews take Jesus to the romans to begin with? They did not have the right to give anyone a death sentence, only the romans could.
Why did Pontius Pilate offer Jesus to the jews over barabas?
Why did Pilate wash his hands of Jesus's death?

Pilate did everything he could to not condemn Jesus to death. But the Sanhedrin found Jesus as a threat to their power. If Jesus taught that he was the word, the way, and the light, the rabbis were out of a job. If Jesus won over the people, they lost their control over them.
Jesus was a threat to the jews in power. Jesus was no threat to the romans.
And why did the first Christians practice in private for fear of the jews? Read the book of John.

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/15/2009 6:55:41 PM

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And if Jesus existed at all, which is doubtful to say the least, he was a Jew.

In any event, your opinion of Jesus has fuck all to do with Israelo-American relations.

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/15/2009 7:02:47 PM

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and the jewish entitlement to israel by divinity has nothing to do with it either. but they continue to go back on the same old tired argument.

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/15/2009 7:07:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

Jesus was as much as rabbi as Martin Luther was a catholic priest.

And why would I take a jew's view of who killed Jesus over the New Testament view of who killed Jesus? Why did the jews take Jesus to the romans to begin with? They did not have the right to give anyone a death sentence, only the romans could.
Why did Pontius Pilate offer Jesus to the jews over barabas?
Why did Pilate wash his hands of Jesus's death?

Pilate did everything he could to not condemn Jesus to death. But the Sanhedrin found Jesus as a threat to their power. If Jesus taught that he was the word, the way, and the light, the rabbis were out of a job. If Jesus won over the people, they lost their control over them.
Jesus was a threat to the jews in power. Jesus was no threat to the romans.
And why did the first Christians practice in private for fear of the jews? Read the book of John.

Because the Gospels were written many years after his death and they were used to cause seperation between jews and followers of jesus and still followed judiasm. And with each gospel the story is told differently and it evolves. The jewish followers of jesus were slowly evolved with it into christians. With each passing gospel they were trying to create seperation. Jews were no more killers than Mary was a whore. But your views are small minded as show how easily you are influenced not by fact and common sense but are one that is easily influenced. Which is exactly what Paul was trying to do. Create an easily controlled christian group who saw a division between them and jews. The New testaments says we have horns too. The pope apoligozed for this false statement of jews being jesus killers. So why are you still holding on to this falsehood?

Im really tire of these ingrained views that dont have a historical thread of truth nor tell the political climate of the time. Plus even if one jew is an informant that makes all jews killers? Should you be held responsible for the acts of a murderer because he was a christian and you are too?

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/15/2009 7:13:02 PM

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quote:

Jesus was a threat to the jews in power. Jesus was no threat to the romans.
And why did the first Christians practice in private for fear of the jews? Read the book of John.

I dont have to read a book that was written in parts by more than one writer, written years after the fact, more than 60 years after his death and years after that. Ever played the game telephone or wonder how your story evolves over time being told by different people? I read the history that talks of the intent of the writer and the political climate of the time.

I can read a nursery ryme and have people tell me it should be my religion. Common sense says otherwise.

Why dont you read the torah and the mishnah and mahriv?

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/15/2009 7:23:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

I believe the horns reference comes from someone(I cant say who) translated the hebrew torah and a word with one slight vowel accent difference brought about this mistake. The word translated wrong from one accent mark translated moses as having horns as opposed to rays of light coming from his head!

I heard that it was Michelangelo who got it wrong, that horns and halo were very similar and he simply mistranslated.

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/15/2009 7:23:31 PM

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Jesus did not create christianity and he considered himself a jew and his followers kept all the laws of judaism. Matter of fact so do the Messianic gruop and the jews for jesus. They follow the torah the way it is meant and follow the laws of kashruth and sing the hebrew prayers and believe in jesus as savior. Jesus never said follow me and be christian. He wasnt christian.

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/15/2009 7:37:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

Jesus was as much as rabbi as Martin Luther was a catholic priest.

Perhaps you do not know the meaning of the word rabbi. It simply means "teacher" and is used as one who teaches from the Torah, which of course is the Bible that Jesus referenced.

quote:

And why would I take a jew's view of who killed Jesus over the New Testament view of who killed Jesus? Why did the jews take Jesus to the romans to begin with? They did not have the right to give anyone a death sentence, only the romans could.

C'mon. Are you saying that that mob of Jews was unable to kill Jesus by themselves?

quote:

Why did Pontius Pilate offer Jesus to the jews over barabas?
Why did Pilate wash his hands of Jesus's death?

Pilate did everything he could to not condemn Jesus to death. But the Sanhedrin found Jesus as a threat to their power. If Jesus taught that he was the word, the way, and the light, the rabbis were out of a job. If Jesus won over the people, they lost their control over them.
Jesus was a threat to the jews in power. Jesus was no threat to the romans.

Pilate could have pardoned Jesus. He chose not to.

Jesus was no threat to the Romans? You gotta be kidding. He was leading a whole bunch of Jews. Last thing the Romans wanted to see would be an uprising.

quote:

And why did the first Christians practice in private for fear of the jews? Read the book of John.

Actually, I figure the reason the Christians took Sunday as the Sabbath was so they could rent space in the synagogues to practice, same as Jews do nowadays with churches. The Muslims picked Friday, and for a while they all coexisted. I assume they shared the same buildings then.

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RE: Israel says screw you US - 6/15/2009 7:52:00 PM

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And the Romans prolly collected the rent!

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