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RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/18/2006 12:40:44 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

*arches one eyebrow*

What gives the owner said authority?

The person who identifies as their slave.

As soon as said person wishes to leave or no longer wishes to be under that authority then there is nothing short of breaking the law (and risking grave legal and society results) that the dom can do to keep that authority.

So unless you live in a country where there is legal slavery, your authority is based on the acknoweldgement of two people -- you and the slave.

Someone may certainly believe and feel that they recognize your authority forever and ever but that does not negate the fact that such authority is really all in your minds.

Personally I think it makes it much better and much more intense because someone serving me does it from a place of desire and respect and the authority they give me is sweeter because it comes from a place of power inside themselves to say to the rest of society "this is who we are".

that is correct authority of the relationship over a person comes from that specific person. The power of authority comes very much from heart and desire of the slave. But that heart and desire is opened by the very actions of the Master! It is very much a recipocal relationship. To maintain authority... the Master must maintain and or exceed the parameters that result in consent from the slave. But, once that slave gives consent. It is my subjective expectation that the slave has given me authority as long as the will of my actions deserve such consent!

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 2/18/2006 12:43:32 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 141

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/18/2006 12:41:12 PM

phoenixslave

Posts: 66
Joined: 6/13/2004
Status: offline

ownedgirlie, i know that feeling too. Much i have read here has felt threatening and i have been passionate in my responses as well. i am coming to the conclusion that you can't save people from themselves. Coming here should educate, not harm. That includes things we don't agree with. lol, then theres that i think Taggard is a hottie too. lol.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 142

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/18/2006 4:29:48 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx
I need a nap!

Want some company? *wink*

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to xxblushesxx)

Post #: 143

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/18/2006 4:32:09 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz
Thank you for your passionate response.

Suz,

You are 100% class!

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to MizSuz)

Post #: 144

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/18/2006 4:43:42 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenixslave
why are people so threatened by his view?

Right! That's was really the point of my OP, as you fully summised.

Yet those who are clearly and obviously offended, are offended to such an extent, that they can't even admit they are offended, much less understand the roots of the own offense.

This is what I find utterly and completely fascinating.

No where I have ever said my way is "better", "the one real and true way", or anything even approaching that. I never spoke about how I use my slaves, or given any indication (at least in this thread) of the kind of play I actualy do. Yet I am accused of these things and more, by people "reading between the lines."

(Truth is, I love it. I am certainly an attention whore, and I need my semi-annual bath in the public trough. *smile*)

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to phoenixslave)

Post #: 145

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/18/2006 4:49:05 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
I think if the OP had responded to those trying to explain their own definitions or reasons and those offering empathy instead of attempting to argue his way is 'better' then pages and pages of intensity could be avoided.

Two thoughts:

1) Please show me where I ever, in any way, shape, or form, suggested my way was 'better'. I am asking this 100% in earnest, and not in any challenging or reactionary way. If I gave that impression, I would really like to know how I did that, and work to improve my communication style and technique to avoid such confusion in the future.

2) Why on earth would I want to avoid "pages and pages of intensity"???

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 146

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/18/2006 7:34:34 PM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
I think if the OP had responded to those trying to explain their own definitions or reasons and those offering empathy instead of attempting to argue his way is 'better' then pages and pages of intensity could be avoided.

Two thoughts:

1) Please show me where I ever, in any way, shape, or form, suggested my way was 'better'. I am asking this 100% in earnest, and not in any challenging or reactionary way. If I gave that impression, I would really like to know how I did that, and work to improve my communication style and technique to avoid such confusion in the future.

2) Why on earth would I want to avoid "pages and pages of intensity"???

Taggard

Note the ' ' around the term better..... when you say things like " If ownership is only ownership when it is forever, who owns whom?" in your very first post you imply that somehow one way of doing this (forever) isn't ownership. That seems to have really annoyed some folks.

If you'd just left that out and following statements along the same lines and asked for explanations as to why folks feel that is good or for empathy for when your way is frowned upon, you would have done much better.

I offered reasons why people may feel as they do and even empathy but that was ignored.

Keep arguing if you like but I'm not going to argue for the sake of arguing and frankly I have nothing to argue about because I believe its all self-definitions.

But as you also just said a post or two ago you are an "attention whore" so I suspect you worded things purposely. Yes?

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 147

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/18/2006 7:43:14 PM

NControlofU

Posts: 204
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline

this owned slave has no problem with the idea of short-term ownership, although the idea doesn't really make any sense to me. i can't think of anything i have ever owned or wanted to own for just a short time, other than food. Anything else that i have ever wanted to own i have wanted
to own for as long as i could have it. But, if someone really wanted to own a slave for just one minute, i don't see anything wrong with that. Why they would want to is something i don't understand but, that's not for me to worry about. i would never agree to be owned for such a short time. That wouldn't be anything i would be interested in. But, that's just me. i am someone who likes to have a lot of time to explore and grow and learn and not feel rushed by the clock. i am owned by a Master who took me as His slave "for life" and that was fine for me, even though i have no idea how long that life will be. Life is unpredictable.

For me, ownership is just a state of mind. my Master has no legal ownership over me and i know that i could leave anytime i choose. What's important to me is that i FEEL that He owns me and has power over me. You can call it an illusion but, as long as it feels real to me and He is satisfied with me and i am making His life better by being His slave, that's all that really matters to me. As long as i am His slave, my Master has total ownership and power over me. my Master has power over me because i turned that power over to Him so that i could feel owned. The last decision i made was to agree to be His slave and to give Him that power over me. i do have the power over whether to stay or not. But, i in no way own Him and i in no way have any power over Him.

For this slave, there is nothing romantic about being owned, long or short term. There is nothing romantic about how i feel about my Master or how He feels about me. i in no way love Him or have any romantic notions about Him and i someday being anything other than Master and slave. Maybe if W/we are together long enough, i will develop some feelings of love toward Him but not yet. i am His slave and His property and He does what He wants with me and if He decided to, He could at anytime get rid of me and that would be the end of my being His slave. i don't have any expectations of being owned "forever", even though He said that He was going to own me forever and i have no doubt that He meant it. To me, "forever" is just for whatever amount of time He (and i) choose it to be. But, as long as i am His slave, for whatever amount of time that turns out to be, i will continue to be His loyal servant and to do everything He tells me to do and i will continue to enjoy being owned and hope that it is for a long time.

i don't think i could really feel owned if it were not intended to be for the long term, even if it doesn't turn out that way.

slave joy (owned property of Master David)

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 148

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/18/2006 9:20:25 PM

DestinyCommander

Posts: 30
Joined: 2/17/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: alandraofMists

if you have a vehicle, please keep me in mind when you need to prove that you own it *grins*.

Hell, for that matter, if you have a female SLAVE, please keep me in mind when you need to prove that you own it

Cars are nice, too...

-- Des

(in reply to alandraofMists)

Post #: 149

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/18/2006 9:58:38 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

Why do you insist that ownership can only be ownership if it is forever??? Why can't ownership exist as I say it does and as you say it does?

I fully acknoledge your understanding, why does mine conflict with yours in such a way as to make it impossible?

Taggard

It doesn't, I really don't care how anyone defines ownership in there lives, however, the only reason to post this topic, is so people will tell you there views on it. You're acting as if everyone is supposed to agree with you. In my mind your not the owner, but who cares, you think you are. Are others peoples opinion really necessary, apparently they are or else you wouldn't keep inviting people to comment on your opinions by posting a topic about a pet peeve of yours in a public forum. If I post a topic the only reason I would post it is to here different opinions than my own. Maybe you post seeking something else.

Anyway, good luck, but realize no one really cares what you call anything, nor should anyone care that I think terms are something different than you think they are. Really, I think this is your second time going on about this subject, so who's trying to convince who there terminology is correct? You understand alot of people don't agree with your definition yet you post a thread about it then claim people are making it impossible for you. Hmmmm, I didn't realize I had such power. Why, do you post if you don't want others opinions. If it's to merely go around in argument about details, there are infinitely more interesting topics.

Like I said before you define temporary control as ownership, I don't. You are free to define it however you want, but if I see a thread and I don't agree with what's being said I'll post my opinion, that's not forcing it on, or stating superiority/inferiority as it appears you take it. Some agree with you some don't. I guess we all have to live with the fact that BDSM terminology is ambiguous.

Anyway, good luck, in your fight for BDSM definition standardization.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 150

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/18/2006 11:10:51 PM

RiotGirl

Posts: 3149
Status: offline

quote:

Taggard, you must be feeling especially feisty this morning *winks* to open yourself up to such controversy...lol.

quote:

Obviously, such a revelation is unacceptable, and must be battled, repressed, denied, and condemend (at least before all those "Masters" think about it too much *smile*).

You're not in the boat alone. All revelations it seems must be battled, repressed, denied and condemned. The reason being is that there will always be those who are in opposition to your view....no matter what it is. If you loudy proclaim that marshmallows are yummy you can bet you are going to get that group of marshmallow haters telling you just how wrong you are.

quote:

I just never understood how this could be threatening to others...but I think I am beginning to get it.

I don't see how your view is threatening. It's not my thing but to each's own...if it's working for you, I wouldn't worry too much about anyone else's perception of it.

i'm in agreement

quote:

To me, if you are owning something valuable, why wouldn’t you want to own it for a long time? If I owned a ferrarri and I had taken the time to detail it, and customize it precisely to my liking why would I get rid of it after six months?

ppl actually do that quite frequently, especially with cars they race.

quote:

this entirely changes my position on this thread . . . i agree . . . if i rent an apartment chances are i will never own it . . . and any fundamental changes i make must be okay with the owner. that is an entirely different dynamic than owning a house . . . when i decide how i want to change it, care for it, and if needed, discard it . . ..

i think this says it best. In those 5 hours or 5 days, he can do anything he chooses because he OWNS the property. Change it, modify it, tatoo, body mod it, pierce it. He could have a tatoo placed saying " i am a dumb slut" because he OWNS it. If it were a rental or a lease, he'd have to go to who ever he leased or rented it from and ask their permission.

quote:

I have said that 5 hours and 5 days even if you have total control of them does not meet the definition of ownership.

i think you're completely wrong, because of what i stated above.

quote:

So yes there is a type of ownership but it is Qualified (limited).

But its NOT limited as he can do anything with it he pleases and needs no permission what so ever.

To me this is very simple, ownership implies you can sell or give something away. obviously you can't do that if there is a time limit imposed.

quote:

For example let's say you acquire a "slave" for 5 hours. You can't then give that slave away to someone else for a lifetime.

but thats not true. He can sell that slave for 5 minutes if he pleases. Whys it gots to be a lifetime? Why must it be a limited view?

quote:

Ownership implies the option of permanent control

does not

Mistress DREAD, i just read your post and LOVED IT. Glad you are back posting and i think you stated everything very well, lol, just in hard to read pinkish cursive writing imho lol.

quote:

Have you ever stopped and thought that maybe, just maybe, ownership isn't about love and romantic envolvement? That it about service over your sexual wants and desires? That it's about the person being of service to another and not having to love them or them loving you.

funny thats sorta what i thought it was about...

quote:

Holy crap, someone gets it!!!

a few of us do i think. Mistress Dread does! lol

quote:

You are granted exclusive rights

but its NOT exclusive rights.. its COMPLETE rights. There's the difference

quote:

the slave ends the relationship due to the Harm to the slave's Well-Being by negligent cause of the Master.

but thats not really ownership is it? My dog no matter what i do to it, cant up and say "hey i dont like how ya own me, screw off" My dog is actually kind of stuck and is on the mercy of my good will. Sort of what ownership is. As i own my dog. Granted its not a person but a dog, but its ownership.. which we're discussing here.

quote:

Can ownership be ownership if it is not forever???

yes yes yes yes yes yes yes AND YES. There isnt a limit on ownership. It just is. Its there or it isnt there. Today i am owned, tomorrow i could not be owned. Ownership, slavery, to me isnt about the feathers and roses. Thats just frosting completely on the mercy of your Master. And yeah i like the frosting, but its still JUST frosting. Ownership isnt frosting and i think ppl are getting confused with slavery/ownership and frosting. Taggard just doesnt want the frosting. And if he doesnt have a sweet tooth, so be it. Alot of ppl dont have them! i happen to like my frosting, but i ALSO happen to know that it is just that. Cuddles, hugs, kisses, his love.. heck ANYTHING that he GIVES me.. is just that.. a gift. Heck even being allowed to pee is a gift LOL.

quote:

He used to add that there is no such word as Can't. All he would accept from any body was "I am unable to do this at this time."

i love that.. and if you dont mind would like to use it? As i agree.. there is NO cant.. only wont

quote:

I don't understand how it will be possible for me to do that. I'm happy to listen to your suggestions if you know of a way that that can be done without screwing up all our lives."

LOL can i use that too? i know a could put it to good use <wicked smile>

Mis Suz i think you also hit it on the head. Great response on trying to put it into perspective for everyone.

quote:

There's no such thing as forever...

YUPPERS.. complete and totally. In agreement with you too!

(LOL Ms Suz that was a funny good response.. thank you for your passionate response lol)

quote:

you -always- come back as the same person...

ya know.. i at times agree with reincarnation and since i've no solid facts on anything i never discount anything.. but the rest of it, i wouldnt know how that would logically work.

quote:

I guess I lean toward...the OP's arguments although, it probably wouldn't work for me.
But I do see, intellectually, what he is saying.

Agreed as well.. i see what he's saying and ya know the more i think about it.. the more curious as i am to what it'd be like.

quote:

How much work does he put into customizing

i dont think he customizes them. He just expects to be as they are.. slaves and to fullfill that.

quote:

it was that i think people can be hurt by it.

doubt some one can be hurt by being as they are. And if no untoward stuff happens.. ie evil things.. and everyone is upfront.. then why would anyone be hurt by being who they are?

and this is MY response after 8 pages of reading.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 151

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/19/2006 1:38:54 AM

dincubus

Posts: 231
Joined: 10/22/2005
From: South Dakota
Status: offline

I do believe that ownership is what a person, singular, believes it to be. if that is one hour or one lifetime, then so be it. What ownership is, is highly subjective. Personally I would equate ownership to marriage. I would then give it the respect as I would a spouse of a friend. In effect, if ownership would entail somethign akin to marriage then i would consider a sub to be my significant other/wife. Now if only i could claim said sub on my taxes.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 152

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/19/2006 8:49:13 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl
and this is MY response after 8 pages of reading.

Doll, that was simply amazing!

Thank you!

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to RiotGirl)

Post #: 153

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/19/2006 10:03:35 AM

DragonNphoenix

Posts: 617
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline

My Dragon and I understand the thought of ownership on a short term level as well as a long term level. I know a couple of slaves that only can be owned on a short term because of their lives outside the community. IMHO... ownership should be defined by those involved in the deal.. no one else. But like I said.. that is just my opinion..

1st Girl Phoenix

_____________________________

**Pain is just pleasure with a twist**

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 154

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/19/2006 10:12:54 AM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
To me, if you are owning something valuable, why wouldn’t you want to own it for a long time? If I owned a ferrarri and I had taken the time to detail it, and customize it precisely to my liking why would I get rid of it after six months?

quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl
ppl actually do that quite frequently, especially with cars they race

Racing a car and owning it are two different things. What I asked about was what the actual motivations are behind acquiring and personalizing to only turn around fairly quickly and sell it. Although I think a better example would have been of some type of car that has a limited production, because I don't think there are an infinite number of slaves that fit anyones criteria. Eventually you'll run out of people if you sell them all within a few hours to six months at the longest of acquiring them. Just the process of selling someone isn't exactly quick...

Which is exactly why I wanted to know how it actually works for TallDark because all I've heard from his posts are theory. Nothing about the reality of doing it.

C~

Edited to add: even if he does *no* customizing to his own preferences, desires, etc (which makes little practical sense to me) the process of selling isn't quick. I still haven't heard anything beyond theory of "I have the right to do this... why isn't what I believe I have the right to do ownership."

< Message edited by Wildfleurs -- 2/19/2006 10:15:18 AM >

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to RiotGirl)

Post #: 155

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/19/2006 10:19:59 AM

xxblushesxx

Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx
I need a nap!

Want some company? *wink*

Taggard

mmm...yes please. And...could you bring some of Riot Girl's frosting? kthanxseeya...

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 156

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/19/2006 10:39:19 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
Which is exactly why I wanted to know how it actually works for TallDark because all I've heard from his posts are theory. Nothing about the reality of doing it.

If you are really curious about how I treat my slaves, there is one sure way to find out.

*wink*

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

Post #: 157

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/19/2006 10:41:10 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx
I need a nap!

Want some company? *wink*

Taggard

mmm...yes please. And...could you bring some of Riot Girl's frosting? kthanxseeya...

Thank you for calling Domin(ate)os. If you haven't orgasmed in 30 minutes, your spanking is free!

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to xxblushesxx)

Post #: 158

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/19/2006 11:18:50 AM

DestinyCommander

Posts: 30
Joined: 2/17/2006
Status: offline

I believe ownership is this: if you can do anything you want with it, you own it. Time is irrelevant. Although I do understand the argument that if you are obligate to give something up after a period of time that you don't own it, because one of the things you should be able to do with something is to keep it.

The law tells us we own things we do not have complete control over. The law is wrong. You cannot do anything you want to a car, or stocks, or just about anything. I can't put a tall fence on my land, because the law says so, yet they tell me that I own it. I just can't wrap my head around that meaning of ownership.

Just about the only thing you cannot do to a person (with their consent), legally, is kill them. So if I can own something I can't even decorate to my desires, you certainly can own something in which your only restrictions are "not killing" and "a time limit".

-- Des

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 159

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/19/2006 11:37:01 AM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
Which is exactly why I wanted to know how it actually works for TallDark because all I've heard from his posts are theory. Nothing about the reality of doing it.

If you are really curious about how I treat my slaves, there is one sure way to find out.

*wink*

Taggard

LOL no thanks, I have an owner I've been with for several years! Like I said before, I'm more interested in how your theory actually works. Theoretical discussions are like a dog chasing its tail and are pointless if its not really happening.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 160

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