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Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/11/2009 11:17:49 PM

Esinn

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How do you feel about the fact rated "G"/PG public play or 'pride' of your passion would most likely have you socially marginalized?

Still a long way off in most towns but I think society is pushing closer to the point where it is acceptable to see F/F or M/M couples show affection for each other compared to the distant past.

Partner on leash
Playful but firm spanking
Gagged
Partner following behind in an obvious submissive posture
Putting a well written and tasteful flyer next to another in a store window
Pro Dom leaving a business card with others
...
....
......

Parents discipline children publicly. Obviously people dress themselves to attract attention or call attention to this or that. Tasteful breast feeding is allowed. Go to any college town 'slutty' attire is always accepted.

I am not sure how I feel about it.

*I am not thinking deeply religious deep south nor Manhattan/SF - the more average American town

< Message edited by Esinn -- 7/11/2009 11:25:26 PM >

RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/11/2009 11:50:12 PM

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Huh. This is as good a time as any to point out that there are two distinct definitions of 'public play'. One is exhibiting ones kink stuff in front of a non-consenting audience, & the other is restricting those displays to a consenting audience.

All of your examples seem to fit into the non-consenting audience category, & I don't involve non-consenting entities in my kink.

But I love a good play party & / or 'public' dungeon . . . . . .

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/11/2009 11:56:35 PM

Esinn

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If I can clarify....

Public play might have been a poor choice of words. Rather than consider it ignore it and look at the bullet points. There are times on occasion, although rare I do not want the woman who is breast feeding sitting next to me. However, I tolerate it without complaint.

The purpose of the post was to inquire about your feelings. Should it be acceptable to leash your partner in public. Should a pro dom be able to put their business card next to the handyman and attorney in one of them displays by a cash register? Right now in the majority of locations I think things like this would be frowned upon.

< Message edited by Esinn -- 7/11/2009 11:59:05 PM >

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/11/2009 11:59:11 PM

ladyofthecastle

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I do not believe that seeing same sex couples together is harmful to any one as it is just two people that love each other.

As for attire, I do not appreciated when I am out with our umm and there is a half naked woman walking around. Nor do I think items such as spankings should be public displays. There is a very hard line for me when it comes to non consenting public audience. I find collars are often over looked and are not to obtrusive but I would certainly not agree with having a sub on the ground crawling after someone walking them by a leash.

Now as for places that you must be over 18 such as clubs or private areas. I believe two consenting adults should be free to do anything that is not illegal.

All cultures and ideals should be able to flourish in public venues as long as some respect to those around is taken.

~Lady Ann~

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 12:00:01 AM

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I thought I was pretty clear . . . .

If the kinksters displaying overt BDSM behaviors are doing it in front of people who did not or could not explicitly consent in a fully informed manner, that's inappropriate, to me.

If this behavior is exhibited in front of those who could & did give full consent, then it's fine & fun & wonderful . . . . ..

(in reply to Esinn)

RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 12:09:39 AM

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I stopped caring a long time ago.

If you are an adult you should know to look away when you see something that bothers you. If you aren't then the adult responsible for you needs to be Responsible for you.

Here is my point.

I have to watch bratty, bitchy, shitnosed, douche bag children talk back to thier parents why they try to REASON with them.

I have to watch while a Husband ignores his Wife who is struggling with said children.

I have to watch Two Men Kiss, because it's their RIGHT to be them.

I have to watch Two Women Kiss, because it's their RIGHT to be them.

I have to watch a Woman Breast Feed her child anywhere she feels like.

I have to watch our Politicians Rape America, and know I can't do anything to change it until it's too late.

I have to watch MANY THINGS I DON'T WANT TO SEE.

So Fuck Em, I could give a shit less if something I do Offends you and if I get arrested then so be it. But I'm tired of the idea that my rights to be who I am are somehow less important than anyone elses and that I am somehow supposed to be more responsible than them because of the nature of the lifestyle I engage in. Or the worst of all, that I am SUPPOSED to make sure everyone in the world who could ever possible be affected my by actions CONSENTS to me doing it.

No Offence I will NEVER call my Wifes Gynocologist before I stick something in her pussy, nor do I think ANYONE should feel they have to.

Steel

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 12:10:13 AM

Esinn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

I thought I was pretty clear . . . .

If the kinksters displaying overt BDSM behaviors are doing it in front of people who did not or could not explicitly consent in a fully informed manner, that's inappropriate, to me.

If this behavior is exhibited in front of those who could & did give full consent, then it's fine & fun & wonderful . . . . ..

Homie... You are out in public... I thought I was clear and articulate.

Parents beat the hell out of their kids. People spit flem infected hockers on the ground. Bums sleep on the street. I mean come on. If we want to look at this legally it has already been established on you give up your right to privacy in public along with many other things. Consider the paparazzi. If you do not like it lock yourself in the basement.

At least the lady made a good point.

(in reply to DemonKia)

RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 12:33:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

If the kinksters displaying overt BDSM behaviors are doing it in front of people who did not or could not explicitly consent in a fully informed manner, that's inappropriate, to me.

I'm about as loose on the concept of what is "acceptable" as anyone. *snicker* Then again, I'm saying nothing you probably don't already know...

I actually favor openness to displays of affection. I'm notably not moved by cultural mores and norms, which is exactly what we would be measuring these "displays" against...so there is probably a very short list of things that I think have some sort of "harmful" nature just by the fact of them being witnessed.

I also don't automatically make the direct relation of people doing these acts as "forcing" them on a non-consenting audience. When you see a normal vanilla couple kissing in public, no one assumes they are trying to shove their kissie-kissie session in your face. Our social structure just naturally considers it a latent expectation. We pretty much don't react. Leading a slave around in public by a leash and collar is inherently no more or less a show of affection as the kissing based on the type of relationship dynamic...but many people would be quick to say they are "focing" their kink onto others, simply because it's less common.

I don't buy the victim angle of people having to experience things in public at all. If you go out in public, you accept an unspoken waiver to be exposed to anything not explicitly illegal...and sometimes you even get exposed to the illegal. Being offended by mutually consensual human interaction in public is no excuse to treat the participators as the problem when it actually lies in the perceiver.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 7/12/2009 12:34:33 AM >

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I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 12:36:34 AM

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lol

I gave you my position statement on how I make my behavioral choices.

I personally don't subscribe to the 'other people misbehave so I can too' argument, but if that flips your wig & you 'get away' with it . . . . . *shrugs* . . . . . I am snotty enough to think that I am better than others, sometimes, mostly on the basis that I choose to behave better, sometimes . . . . . .

(in reply to Esinn)

RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 12:40:45 AM

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Yes, a poor choice of words in the original.

Can somebody please tell Me exactly what in the world is everybody's kick with breastfeeding? It's done in many places all over the world where no one bats and eye. Why do people have such a hang up over it?

The only other thing that I see on your list that isn't an issue is the supposed 'following behind in a submissive posture' thing. I highly doubt anybody could think that was overt BDSM activity. How do we determine that anyway? One step behind because one walks faster than the other or should it be two? What if someone's head is held up, rather than the eyes looking down?

Women walking down the street barely dressed is not linked only to BDSM. Neither are collars for that matter. Thank the goth culture.

The leash and the gag aren't appropriate. Neither are fliers if the description is going to contain sexual material and the business cards would be in poor taste. (Good way to get raided, too.) Those types of things should be in locations for adult viewing only. Most groups, clubs, and professionals know how to network with each other. There's more than enough advertisement there in addition to what can be obtained over the net. I don't need to metaphorically thumb My nose up at the rest of society to achieve My goals. In fact, those kinds of contributions might set us back a bit.

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 12:43:08 AM

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Eh, Nihilus, there's this level of public displays of affection (PDA) that's innocuous, & then there's a level that, to me, becomes obnoxious . . . . . It's not the nudity, I'm all for public nudity, actually . . . . .

But there's something about these behaviors that's not about some 'natural display of affection' but more about being an attention whore, going for shock value . . . . . & while I can get behind the former motivation I'm much less impressed by the latter . . . . . lol . . . . & that's coming from someone who's currently sporting a pink mohawk, so I think I know a little about being an attention whore . . . . .

For me, it feels like it's far more about this stuff being tacky than it is about some gigantic harms . . . . . & there's also that if I expect others to respect my autonomy & boundaries then it's kinda hypocritical for me not to respect theirs . .. . . .

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 12:51:00 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

I personally don't subscribe to the 'other people misbehave so I can too' argument, but if that flips your wig & you 'get away' with it . . . . . *shrugs* . . . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

The leash and the gag aren't appropriate.

These are both very interesting points for a very introspectively important reason, I think:

Both consider (let's just use the example of leash and collar to start, for simplicity) such an act as "misbehaving" or "(not) appropriate".

What fascinates me is that, (I'm going to make a presumption here, so let me know if it is incorrect) I take it both of you consider that act as a caring display of your relationship with someone. If not specifically that act, then perhaps we can choose another BSDM-related act that is the equivalent of vanilla kissing.

It is an act that, I would think, reflects a beauty of the relationship shared. It's not something I would think is a facade of an act role-played publicly.

So...why is there an automatic thinking process that treats it as publicly negative? What does it say about what we are sharing if we really, in the privacy of our own thoughts, think it's so inherently deviant and naughty that it's not fit for the public's eyes? It strikes me as the residue of some shame that we should all feel for wanting/choosing/desiring to express our caring, concern and commitment in a way that most of the vanilla world would treat that way.

Aren't we doing a disservice to the honest purity of what we share if we passively enable the presumptions that it's 'ugly' (even just in our own heads)?

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 7/12/2009 12:59:04 AM >

_____________________________

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I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 12:57:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

But there's something about these behaviors that's not about some 'natural display of affection' but more about being an attention whore, going for shock value . . . . . & while I can get behind the former motivation I'm much less impressed by the latter . . . . . lol . . . . & that's coming from someone who's currently sporting a pink mohawk, so I think I know a little about being an attention whore . . . . .

Surely there will always be that do such things just for attention. But, why would be quick to presume or social.sexual peers are doing it for that reason if it happens? Again, I'm dissecting the basic human habit to consider what is familiar as permissible and what is uncommon as flag-waving.

And, is our dislike of the chance that some attention hogs would use it to attract attention reason enough to prevent people who genuinely feels it's an extension of their relationship from getting to do it?

Even if I had a personal pet peeve about people sporting pink mohawks to get attention (

), it doesn't automatically make having one in public "inappropriate" or "misbehaving".

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 1:02:08 AM

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Nihilus, I happen to think that cock worship is a beautiful display of my love for my man, when I have one of those around, lol -- but it ain't appropriate for non-consenting PDA . . . . . Might not ever be . . . . .

I'm not really into the being led around by a leash with a collar on in 'real public' thing, it has never entered my desires. I'd be willing to do it at a play party for someone special, but it's not an independent part of my fantasy life, so . . . .. *shrugs* . .. . . I do think that it's edgy, & I would be uncomfortable seeing it or being it . . . . . But I would also be uncomfortable with very much 'vanilla' PDA, I'm way more into subtlety in 'real public' settings . . . . . & I readily admit to being inhibited & a host of other hang-ups . . . . .

But the real crux of the issue, for me, is that it impinges on the others existence. What happens if one is leading around another by a leash, with a collar, & some 'vanilla' individual comes up & starts screaming & throwing a world-class hissy fit? Or calls the cops, which probably would not result in jail but would certainly be interesting . . . . . I believe that my rights end at the edge of the other's boundaries, with the caveat that those boundaries can be amorphous . . . . . & that notion that another impinging on my boundaries makes for crappy justification for me to equal their level of intransigence . . . . .

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 1:06:18 AM

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You have to remember something, NZ. I'm a firm believer in not imposing My kink on those who do not wish to be involved in it. While the times, they are a changin' I have no right to force exposure to anyone who does not want to be exposed. No, I don't believe everything is acceptable by the general public. Often, the public has said so.

You must also keep in mind that I have to maintain a very special balance. While I can be quite public with the kinky folks, My family has certain risks about the vanilla public eye. Believe it or not, that don't ask, don't tell thing doesn't just apply to non-heterosexual couples. It applies to those who participate in BDSM as well. What kind of Dominant would I be if I were to risk My sub, just because I thought leading him on a leash should be seen by everyone as a beautiful act?

_____________________________

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Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 1:13:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Nihilus, I happen to think that cock worship is a beautiful display of my love for my man, when I have one of those around, lol -- but it ain't appropriate for non-consenting PDA . . . . . Might not ever be . . . . .

True...but that is likely also still illegal in many places publicly. And I won't get into a tangent about whether I think it should be in order to keep the thread from turning into a novel.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

I'm not really into the being led around by a leash with a collar on in 'real public' thing, it has never entered my desires. I'd be willing to do it at a play party for someone special, but it's not an independent part of my fantasy life, so . . . .. *shrugs* . .. . . I do think that it's edgy, & I would be uncomfortable seeing it or being it . . . . . But I would also be uncomfortable with very much 'vanilla' PDA, I'm way more into subtlety in 'real public' settings . . . . . & I readily admit to being inhibited & a host of other hang-ups . . . . .

Well, if that's not an example I'm not saying it should be. We each have our own wants. Do you find a gradual curve of some of the BDSM-related ways you show affection and the degree to which you find them publicly appropriate?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

But the real crux of the issue, for me, is that it impinges on the others existence. What happens if one is leading around another by a leash, with a collar, & some 'vanilla' individual comes up & starts screaming & throwing a world-class hissy fit?

We can't help that. It could happen for normal reasons. But...this is part of an argument that every minority has every had to deal with while trying to make their type of public "display" more common...because that still is the only way humans become more accepting of uncommon things.

Young women who have chosen to get abortions would run heavy risks trying to make it through potential crowds of fanatical folks potentially picketing a location because they consider her a soon-to-be-killer.

I guess maybe different people will think differently about whether the principle of being able to freely express themselves warrants potentially putting themselves in danger.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Or calls the cops, which probably would not result in jail but would certainly be interesting . . . . . I believe that my rights end at the edge of the other's boundaries, with the caveat that those boundaries can be amorphous . . . . . & that notion that another impinging on my boundaries makes for crappy justification for me to equal their level of intransigence . . . . .

Certainly we want to be careful of legal issues...but, yet again, I find no logical cogency behind the idea that people who are out in public can make any argument to being the "victim" of exposure to something. Our freedoms do not stop (and should not stop) where the propensity of someone else to be offended begins.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 7/12/2009 1:38:17 AM >

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I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 1:19:12 AM

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Mostly, for me, what's been discussed by me here is a matter of personal preference up to that point where it becomes more than that, & that's most definitely a vague middle ground . . . . . .

& what's socially permissible is a moving target. I've contemplated where the final hard line will be, at some point in the future, as a half-assed amateur futurist.

For instance . . . . .

Will there be some point in the future at which coitus -- vaginal, anal or oral -- becomes acceptable for non-consenting PDA?

When will it be acceptable to be publicly & entirely nude, entirely, & in crowded urban areas & not just isolate special places? Cuz that one will happen, it's just a matter of when . . .

Will a day come when the full spectra of mild-to-moderate BDSM behaviors becomes acceptable for a booth at the Saturday morning farmers' market? 'Anyone care for a nice flogging to go with your veggies?'

& what will attention whores do then?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

Surely there will always be that do such things just for attention. But, why would be quick to presume or social.sexual peers are doing it for that reason if it happens? Again, I'm dissecting the basic human habit to consider what is familiar as permissible and what is uncommon as flag-waving.

And, is our dislike of the chance that some attention hogs would use it to attract attention reason enough to prevent people who genuinely feels it's an extension of their relationship from getting to do it?

Even if I had a personal pet peeve about people sporting pink mohawks to get attention (), it doesn't automatically make having one in public "inappropriate" or "misbehaving".

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 1:24:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

You have to remember something, NZ. I'm a firm believer in not imposing My kink on those who do not wish to be involved in it.

What does that mean though? The same argument can be made that ugly people should not go out in public in order to not "impose" their horrific visage on other people.

We're talking about an act that, at its core, is just a show of affection between two people that does not affect anyone else short of the perceiver's morality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

While the times, they are a changin' I have no right to force exposure to anyone who does not want to be exposed. No, I don't believe everything is acceptable by the general public. Often, the public has said so.

Historically, the public has also said that we should not be "forcefully exposed" to seeing a black man kiss a whiter woman in public; that we should not be "forcefully exposed" to seeing two men kiss in public.

If we want to play the safe card until the rest of humanity catches up in the intelligence, tolerance and sensibility departments, that's a choice for each person to make...but what I don't understand is why we would, in our personal thoughts, still choose to treat those expressions as naughty ourselves...or even passively enable them being treated as such.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

You must also keep in mind that I have to maintain a very special balance. While I can be quite public with the kinky folks, My family has certain risks about the vanilla public eye. Believe it or not, that don't ask, don't tell thing doesn't just apply to non-heterosexual couples. It applies to those who participate in BDSM as well. What kind of Dominant would I be if I were to risk My sub, just because I thought leading him on a leash should be seen by everyone as a beautiful act?

I respect the feelings of people that choose to hide things from people...even those whom they would consider family. But, this still comes back to an issue of living without the shroud of personal guilt for being who we are.

I wouldn't see me as risking my sub by leading her around on a leash in public. It's an empowerment of honesty and willingness to live as we are ...who we are, regardless of whether society's current prejudices think we're pseudo-criminals.

And, while I don't presume to tell anyone whether they should be a public champion of something that is supposed to be a beautiful and important part of who they are, I cannot for the life of me understand why we would still try to convince ourselves (when no one "risky" is watching) that it isn't something we should hope and.or strive for...unless (again) we still harbor some inner hidden guilt that what we are doing is "wrong" rather than "right".

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 7/12/2009 1:31:11 AM >

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 1:29:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

& what will attention whores do then?

They'd be able to pretend it's Mardi Gras in New Orleans every day!

Again...not trying to place the mantle of responsibility of everyone, but if we are working with a mindset that we at least hope humanity will progress to where what we share can be equally acceptable, then we essentially have to understand that we need the Rosa Parks of BDSM (or any other social minority looking for acceptance) to exist in order to move society in that direction.

How are we even indirectly aiding that movement if we are prone to call them "attention whores" and/or treat them with derision?

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

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RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? - 7/12/2009 1:30:46 AM

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Kissing someone in public is construed as an act of affection. Leading a gagged sub around on a leash will not be construed by most people as an act of affection, an act of degradation more likely.

A business card? Sure.

A flyer for a proDomme on a window of a sportscar? Fine. On a window of a minivan with car seats? Inappropriate. In this case you're advertising a sex business, so you need to obey the rules for other sex businesses like strip joints.

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