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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 4:08:15 AM

LillyoftheVally

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WOW Prins, I am sorry but just WOW.

First of all I do not see how you can use submission to manipulate it is a contradiction in terms.

I agree women can be abusive but that was not true in this case, I don't get how one moment you can be saying she loves him, would do anything yadda yadda and the next that she is a prick tease, and surely unless you were there you wouldn't know how she behaved. I really can't believe what I am reading here, I am acutally appalled I really am. I can't respond on this thread any more I think I will get too angry.

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 4:15:14 AM

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quote:

But on the eve of going away in the army, having turned his life around the way he has, he didn't deserve some slut of a prick tease following him around the streets last night.

Ok, I am now too disgusted to comment on this further.

quote:

I'm surprised I can see it so clearly from both sides. But I can.

Yeah, go with that

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 4:20:45 AM

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~Fast general reply to the op ~

I have never heard such bullshit in my life.

You say she's intelligent
You say she's submissive and therfore has no choice in how men treat her
You say she's being abused.
You say she's a cock teaser.
You say she's a manipulator.

That's alot of YOU SAYs in there.

I guess my question is

What does SHE say.

Because quite honestly; nothing you say is coherent enough to make sense of. You switch from placing blame on him to placing blame on her.

What exactly were you hoping for with this post?

Besides just the airing of dirty laundry and perhaps a bit of 'oh you poor mom to have to go through this'.

Personally, I am in total and complete agreement with what DesFIP said.

quote:

You make excuses for her because if she gets some help and fixes her issues, then you won't have any excuse to not fix yours.

She learned this at her mother's knee. You get into unhealthy relationships repeatedly and accept inappropriate behavior "because you're submissive'. There are lots of us who are submissive but do not accept such behavior

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 4:34:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The idiot wants locking up.

1) Ring the police and have him locked up.
2) Do not see this as the inevitable conclusion from an innate character.
3) Cruel to be kind. You need to find a way to have her take a look at herself in the mirror and develop a bit of steel - by whatever means necessary. Every problem has a solution.

He's away in the Army in a few days time. I hope they knock holy crap out of him.
If I go to the police his Army career will be over before it's begun. He will get a caution and naught else. And the entire cycle will start again.
And she will feel betrayed. It will set a rift between us forever.
I see myself in her when I was so young.

Well in that case do nothing. He will not be held accountable and will continiue the same behaviour. He might even come back to her and eventually kill her. But at least she won't feel betrayed and that is very important.

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 4:41:37 AM

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That's not submission.
It's lack of self esteem.
It's poor choices.
It's not being responsible for oneself.

It's a cop out to label it as submission.

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 4:49:19 AM

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Here is the deal Prin:

You say she is a prick tease... it doesn't matter.
She did not deserve this.

I know it might be something that seems acceptable to you but it isn't.

I am going to say something here -- and my intention is not to hurt you.
In my opinion your self hate is colouring how you are perceiving this.

She is your daughter.
You need to be her mom.

Prin, kids trump everything.
Your daughter needs help.

It is your job to guide her and get her that help.

BDSM vs Abuse

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http://www.womensaid.org.uk/

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 4:50:09 AM

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quote:

He's away in the Army in a few days time. I hope they knock holy crap out of him.
If I go to the police his Army career will be over before it's begun. He will get a caution and naught else. And the entire cycle will start again.
And she will feel betrayed. It will set a rift between us forever.
I see myself in her when I was so young.

Prinsexx - I am new here. Hopefully an outsiders opinion can help. You are in a tough situation and I hope you can change the cycle with your daughter. Here are my thoughts.

Sometimes a parent has to make hard choices. Rifts can always be repaired. Better to create a rift than to have her in danger. This guy's behavior needs to addressed before he does it again to your daughter or someone else. I echo what others have said - taking abuse from a guy is not submission, it is pure abuse. If she really is submissive, it's not a healthy form of submission. She should get counseling.

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 5:27:01 AM

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greetings to all,

Prinsexx, please forgive me if this post is in any way offensive to you. I am only trying to offer answers for you.

As a mother, and a former abuse victim (who was not entirely blameless, mind you) I can sympathise with both of you.

Your post (to me) was projection. You are worried for your daughter, but angry because you feel that *you* (as her mum, raising her and what not) have caused her to be in the situation she's in, and you feel guilty, and helpless.

As mums, we worry for our daughters; we worry whether they eat properly, whether the "latest boy" will take care of them, and whether they will end up in the situations that we have in our lives; I am currently even worrying about whether or not my little one will survive the night after I put her down to sleep (she's 11 months old).

Your daughter might have "provoked" this boy, but, he also had no right to do what he did to her. She needs counselling to help her self esteem (the phone situation was a dead giveaway that she has none) and to get over the trauma, and guidance (ideally from her mum). Don't be scared to talk to her; my bet is that she is dying for you to help her, but she hasn't figured out a comfortable way to express that.

If you need anything, please, feel free to cmail me!

well wishes,

(in reply to Prinsexx)

RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 5:32:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

~Fast general reply to the op ~

I have never heard such bullshit in my life.

You of all people understand the connection between being used and abused.
Did I touch a nerve?

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 5:34:16 AM

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quote:

He's away in the Army in a few days time. I hope they knock holy crap out of him.
If I go to the police his Army career will be over before it's begun. He will get a caution and naught else. And the entire cycle will start again.
And she will feel betrayed. It will set a rift between us forever.
I see myself in her when I was so young.

He is not the problem.

Your daughter needs therapy. Please do not attempt to play therapist with her. You need professional help more than she does.

You sicken me by criticizing your daughter and referring to her in the derogatory terms you use. The fruit does not fall far from the tree.

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 5:36:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

Dunno what you said, Jonnie, but I trust that it was helpful and therefore I thank you, too.

Well, it doesn't fit into a brief explanation on here, that's for sure, all I will say here is that it's damned easy to sit being judgmental from a distance over what is clearly a very emotive issue. I don't doubt there's been assault, that does not get far without a statement from a witness and almost never without A STATEMENT FROM A VICTIM (think about it, read the OP)

Abusive behaviour has many facets, gender and diversity "isms" are for soap box idiots, if you ask me.

What often fucks with my head (on this site ... where one would tend to think things would be "different") is the judgmental subjectivity that seeps out at times ...

FTR (esp for those not in the not in the UK ... if you're in the UK, you should already know) Police reaction to this subject varies DRAMATICALLY across the jurisdiction of England and Wales (fuck what the "policy" claims to be) ... more often than not both victim as well as perpetrator ... or perpetrator as well as perpetrator (which makes both parties victims ... justice is then served on a "first come first served basis") have their lives totally fucked over in the name of "clearing it up" (statistics).

No more comment from me on THIS case in public (at least here).

Pirate

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 5:40:06 AM

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Fast reply but have read all replies.
Wow.
This was NOT a request to ask what to do.
This was not a blame of the boy.
Or a blame of my daughter.
I am fully aware of the dynamic of their relationship and am very close to both of them and their issues in booth a subjective and loving way and an objective way.
I am trained.
I am also the mother and head of this household
Shame on you for projecting the usual onto me.
Only one person mailed me and rang me nad had the kind of insightful intelligence to support me in this situation. The support was not in the form of telling me what to do.
(AS per therapy by the way: my Ums classify as adults now. They have had ALL the interventions as children when i fled their father, was five times in Women's Refuges, two years in gripu therapy etc.
Nothing but huge amounts of money can buy therapy at the moment. Why would i want to subject her to a middle class vanilla twoing the line consellor who is there hiding her own bullshit? If you think thats a judgement get over it)
I was posting about the connection between young submission and the capacity for abuse.
Look within.

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 5:49:13 AM

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I do not believe this has anything to do with submission and everthing to do with the fact that UM's get wired by what they see, hear and learn.

You clearly stated that she is just like you when you were that age--is this what you want for her? I doubt it, I would assume you would hope she had learned from your life, it seems she did not---that is where the issue lies, not in any so called submission--this is her definition of loving and being loved--its now a cycle, it has to be broken. He does what she allows him to do, she allows it because in her wired psyche it means love---this isn't submission, this is a train wreck.

I'm not being glib, I've had a similar situation, because her low self esteem for whatever reason lead her to deadbeats, I fought tooth and nail with every breath I had ,to stop it, get counselling, get her to wake up before it was too late, she is only 19--it worked and she wasn't even close to what you have, but she was teetering.

Don't enable.

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 5:54:37 AM

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So just out of curiosity -- how are you going to feel when he comes home from the army and has a gun. And your daughter calls you saying Mom he just shot me.

I DO on some level understand your reasoning about him going into the army -- but hoping for the best is NOT the best option here. And the Army isn't allowed to kick their asses anymore from what i understand -- i don't think they can even swear or insult them in basic training anymore cause it may hurt their lil feelings. I understand this from my ex bf who was a drill sarg years ago so maybe its been changed.

What you need to do is get the restraining order PRIOR to him going into the army, even if she refuses to press charges. But until your daughter -- i am presuming she is an adult and has to do this on her own -- does this and stops the contact -- your best bet IS therapy. She needs to let him go because if she doesn't the restraining order won't mean a damn thing. She can go to a shelter and explain she has a place to stay she simply needs counseling she can't afford -- so again, you are making excuses. Also you may want to consider this -- many people marry once they get in the army, there are a lot of benefits that advocate people marrying. So you will have that to contend with.

However, i do agree with many this isn't a submissive person this is an abused person. This isn't about submission. And i also agree with many you are making a detrimental mistake trying to justify your daughters behavior because she is a submissive.

I don't know what type of support you are looking for because it seems you are looking for people to agree with you and well -- that's what you are doing with your daughter (indirectly agreeing with her maintaining contact etc and making excuses for her behavior) and how's that working for her?

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 8/9/2009 5:57:02 AM >

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 6:02:13 AM

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quote:

Why would i want to subject her to a middle class vanilla twoing the line consellor who is there hiding her own bullshit?

*shakes head*

But of course, you as a counselor/therapist differ....how?

And IF it is your profession as you claim...might i suggest you would appear to be less of a bloomin' fool if you spelled it correctly?

< Message edited by sirsholly -- 8/9/2009 6:06:55 AM >

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 6:05:12 AM

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You taught your child what is acceptable. That does not make her submissive, it makes her willing to view abuse as love.
Nothing comes before my children. I put my life on hold many times so they would not learn what I learned.
You may be right, therapy is probably not going to do a bit of good here. She has been trained by you.

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 6:10:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

That's not submission.
It's lack of self esteem.
It's poor choices.
It's not being responsible for oneself.

It's a cop out to label it as submission.

I agree that it is lack of self esteem
I agree it's poor choices
I agree it's not being responsible
Not a cop out.
Thats what inexperienced submission looks like.

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 6:14:01 AM

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No that's what inexperienced abused person looks like -- an experience abused person can recognize the signs.

Quit making excuses and trying to say this is submission -- its not, unless you advocate unhealthy dangerous submission.

You are making excuses and in doing so -- you may get a call one day that will make you wish you had handled this differently than trying to make her seem cool (and a part of the whole) on your BDSM board in her submission.

angel

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 6:15:31 AM

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 6:15:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

That's not submission.
It's lack of self esteem.
It's poor choices.
It's not being responsible for oneself.

It's a cop out to label it as submission.

I agree that it is lack of self esteem
I agree it's poor choices
I agree it's not being responsible
Not a cop out.
Thats what inexperienced submission looks like.

No. It's not submission. As long as you keep telling yourself that then you will never be any help to her or yourself.
She appears to be just like you.

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