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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 6:16:43 AM

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With reference to the post, "Young submission and its consequences" I think it would be better written as "NEW submission and its consequences", it matters not whether you're young or "mature" the fact remains ........ you can still be abused WHATEVER your age.

The reason I said "New" submission is because of the Drive a submissive has to belong, they can sometimes replace caution and common sense with an overwhelming desire to be owned, and "fall for" an abuser or wannabee with limited knowledge who thinks abuse is the "right" way to be !!!
If the submissive is experienced and STILL being abused, then to Me, it shows a lack of judgement on their part and I would suggest getting out of the relationship as soon as possible ! Not just physically, but mentally ( The HARDEST thing to do ) I know it's not as easy as I make it sound, so that is where the "support" should stem from. This is just My opinion, be it right or wrong.

(in reply to Prinsexx)

RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 6:22:14 AM

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No sympathy. empathy, kind words or advice here, op. For that matter, nothing from here regardomg you're daaughter. There's nothing in your post regarding " the connection between young submission and the capacity for abuse". In a sane world that could be a good topic but it isnt in that post. If the story you told is accurate then your part in all this is that you're a major enabler. If the story isn't accurate then its your latest cry for help.

(in reply to Missokyst)

RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 6:32:53 AM

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Not submission but sadism. This is the term that best fits the situation. He is sadistic and she is masochistic. A good combination as long as it is negotiated at the beginning. Prins describes aer daughter as having blame in this situation. Her blame is that she does not see that this is abuse. Perhaps he will gain from being help accountable. If you turn him in then there may be alternatives to his direct dismissal from the Army. If you do not then he will continue until real harm has been done. He needs help as much as she does. Is this the life that you chose for yourself? Have you walked these same paths as she? Would you have benefited from intervention.
Abuse is not what anyone signs up for. Abuse must stop. If she is so intelegent then she will be able to learn from therapy and improve her life if not avoid the abuse trap in the future.

(in reply to Prinsexx)

RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 6:38:30 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

And despite all my efforts I cannot save her from being a submissive female.

Nothing I see in what you have written is about her being submissive, everything points to her being in an abusive relationship.

Prin, I can't even begin to imagine the distress a mother (or father) goes through when seeing their child suffer at the hands of another but please, this is not about saving your daughter from being a submissive female, this is all about teaching her how to be a healthy and strong young woman who believes in herself and her choices and knows her self worth and believes that she deserves someone who will not beat her. If you are unable to teach her these things some of those dreaded counsellors can (fuck if I lived there I would offer my services for free for as long as she needed) and yes, she may need to go to a few to find one she feels comfortable with and then you can watch her blossom into an assertive and confident woman, proud of the choices she makes in her life.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx
And I cannot save her.

No but you can support her and love her and not enable her.

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(in reply to Prinsexx)

RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 6:40:34 AM

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Prinsexx, Sans ugly words or critiques because i don't know you personally or well enough online to suppose eanything about you, i will say one thing:

i grew up seeing my mother live the life of a domestic abuse victim. She is not submissive in the least. In fact, she is quite bossy and domineering in most of her relationships. Abuse and submission have very different faces.

i am going to pray for your daughter. That she finds clarity before it's too late. i feel for you, because no matter what people seem to list as your faults, i can't imagine anyone not feeling the same abject pain and confusuion seeing their loved one being hurt that i felt, as a child. Watching someone you love go through abuse does seem to cause a sense of powerlessness, and emotional lethargy as you deal with all the options, and their imagined outcomes...but at some point in time, action is necessary. G-d grant you both strength...

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(in reply to Prinsexx)

RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 6:41:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UKEvolutionary

With reference to the post, "Young submission and its consequences" I think it would be better written as "NEW submission and its consequences", it matters not whether you're young or "mature" the fact remains ........ you can still be abused WHATEVER your age.

The reason I said "New" submission is because of the Drive a submissive has to belong, they can sometimes replace caution and common sense with an overwhelming desire to be owned, and "fall for" an abuser or wannabee with limited knowledge who thinks abuse is the "right" way to be !!!

I agree. Thank you for that. The fact is i know that losing caution and commonsense occurs with inexperience. Age here, the fact that she is my daughter is coincidental.

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 6:45:08 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: prpackaged

Not submission but sadism. This is the term that best fits the situation. He is sadistic and she is masochistic. A good combination as long as it is negotiated at the beginning. Prins describes aer daughter as having blame in this situation. Her blame is that she does not see that this is abuse. Perhaps he will gain from being help accountable. If you turn him in then there may be alternatives to his direct dismissal from the Army. If you do not then he will continue until real harm has been done. He needs help as much as she does. Is this the life that you chose for yourself? Have you walked these same paths as she? Would you have benefited from intervention.
Abuse is not what anyone signs up for. Abuse must stop. If she is so intelegent then she will be able to learn from therapy and improve her life if not avoid the abuse trap in the future.

She's not a masochist...yet. And getting the pleasure-pain wires crossed is ceratinly something I can save her from.

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 7:12:51 AM

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Hi there! This is my first post. I feel I need to tell you what I went through with my daughter. She is also a submissive. This guy was her very first love... at 16. She hadn't dated very much at all, as she was very self conscience about her weight... but by 19 she had a son by him. This relationship lasted until she was about 21-22. After hearing about several more of times, him pulling her hair and dragging her out of the trailer they were sharing.. and breaking the bathroom door because he slammed her into it... trying to pull her by her hair out of a window while she was pregnant.. and PLENTY more... I HAD to do something. She was my only child and I could NOT let this go on. It broke my heart over and over. She came over to visit... and told me he wanted to get married.. I told her flat... IF she married him, I would sell everything I own and move away.. never to be heard from again.. AND I MEANT EVERY WORD!!! I told her she would be signing over her and my grandson's death warrant and I would not be around to witness it... I would be gone. She tried to convince me that it would be good.. he would change once they got married. and I told her.. I'd been there.. done that.. (with a very abusive man and left with my life) and it would NEVER be good... not with this kind of beginning. Anyway... another month went by... they didn't get married. Instead she tried to get him out of her life... and THAT was not an easy task. He would come over to her new apt and threaten her... finally she ran over to a neighbor's house and called the cops.. then me. It took me 5 min to get there from the other side of this small... I arrived to see that low life scum bag in the back of a patrol car. I asked that cop.. "What would it take.. for them to lock him up and stop him from bothering her... him killing her?" The cop told me they found him in the attic space.. trying to hide. Well... I'm very pleased to say... he's getting his... he's in prison for the next 45 years.. yep... maybe he will see his son when he is 73. After his arrest, they found he was a witness to a murder by his best friend and may have had sex with her before she was killed. They still haven't found her body.. so no one really knows for sure. Anyway... after his arrest, 8 girls came forward... under the age of 16 that he had been with and started abusing them. Yep... Oh happy day... PLEASE help your daughter! Tell the Army what they have and get a restraining order.. before it's too late. About a year later, my daughter came to me and hugged me particularly tight that day and kissed my cheek and said..' THANK YOU MOM... for helping me see what he was... before I made the biggest mistake of my life.' Yep.. there are happy endings........ Best of luck with you.... hugs

(in reply to abuddingdom)

RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 7:31:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brazilianone

Hi there! This is my first post. I feel I need to tell you what I went through with my daughter. She is also a submissive. This guy was her very first love... at 16. She hadn't dated very much at all, as she was very self conscience about her weight... but by 19 she had a son by him. This relationship lasted until she was about 21-22. After hearing about several more of times, him pulling her hair and dragging her out of the trailer they were sharing.. and breaking the bathroom door because he slammed her into it... trying to pull her by her hair out of a window while she was pregnant.. and PLENTY more... I HAD to do something. She was my only child and I could NOT let this go on. It broke my heart over and over. She came over to visit... and told me he wanted to get married.. I told her flat... IF she married him, I would sell everything I own and move away.. never to be heard from again.. AND I MEANT EVERY WORD!!! I told her she would be signing over her and my grandson's death warrant and I would not be around to witness it... I would be gone. She tried to convince me that it would be good.. he would change once they got married. and I told her.. I'd been there.. done that.. (with a very abusive man and left with my life) and it would NEVER be good... not with this kind of beginning. Anyway... another month went by... they didn't get married. Instead she tried to get him out of her life... and THAT was not an easy task. He would come over to her new apt and threaten her... finally she ran over to a neighbor's house and called the cops.. then me. It took me 5 min to get there from the other side of this small... I arrived to see that low life scum bag in the back of a patrol car. I asked that cop.. "What would it take.. for them to lock him up and stop him from bothering her... him killing her?" The cop told me they found him in the attic space.. trying to hide. Well... I'm very pleased to say... he's getting his... he's in prison for the next 45 years.. yep... maybe he will see his son when he is 73. After his arrest, they found he was a witness to a murder by his best friend and may have had sex with her before she was killed. They still haven't found her body.. so no one really knows for sure. Anyway... after his arrest, 8 girls came forward... under the age of 16 that he had been with and started abusing them. Yep... Oh happy day... PLEASE help your daughter! Tell the Army what they have and get a restraining order.. before it's too late. About a year later, my daughter came to me and hugged me particularly tight that day and kissed my cheek and said..' THANK YOU MOM... for helping me see what he was... before I made the biggest mistake of my life.' Yep.. there are happy endings........ Best of luck with you.... hugs

I hear what you are saying. Thank you for your first post here.
The boy is 16. I know him well.
He's not the same sort of man you are speaking about.

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 7:36:42 AM

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quote:

She is far too intelligent for any therapist believe me. She just happens to be submissive. Innately.

NOBODY is far too intelligent for a therapist... Or, looked at it differently, we all are. Deceiving a therapist is no real trick... it is, afterall, your own brain the therapist is poking around in. The real question is why spend hundreds of dollars just to lie to someone?

Insofar as just happening to be submissive innately (and also generally out there in the world), so is Carol. She submits to the grocery store clerk, the parking attendant, you name it. But she, apparently, has a much clearer sense of limits than your daughter does. I agree with Steel.. Let's not blame this on submission. There is something else going on here.

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(in reply to Prinsexx)

RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 7:43:29 AM

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after reading the posts on this...my only response is...

prinsexx, I don't really think you have a clue what submission is and I can only hope both you and your daughter get some deep deep therapy.

Please...for all that is sacred...leave bdsm behind. Walk away, get away from online and stop dating men for awhile and get both of you the help you both need.

Because honestly...reading this post and many many others from you...you really seem to be a very confused woman.

(in reply to Aileen1968)

RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 8:06:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

I feel for you, because no matter what people seem to list as your faults, i can't imagine anyone not feeling the same abject pain and confusuion seeing their loved one being hurt that i felt, as a child. Watching someone you love go through abuse does seem to cause a sense of powerlessness, and emotional lethargy as you deal with all the options, and their imagined outcomes.

Well spoken Tulip.

(I'm still struggling with how many people on this thread are "insisting" (to put it politely) on therapy ... therapy is pointless when "forced" on people)

Knee jerk kangaroo court going on here ... anyone fancy having a go at me ?

Pirate

(in reply to lronitulstahp)

RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 8:15:30 AM

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I agree forced therapy does not work.

To the OP: The situation you are facing has less to do with Dom/sub than abuser/victim. You get the behavior you tolerate. If you don't want to be abused or manipulated, don't tolerate it. Someone with good self esteem will walk away at the first sign of abuse, your daughter cannot seem to do that. You cannot seem to help her do that.

Have you talked to an abuse hotline?

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 8:27:21 AM

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quote:

The boy is 16. I know him well.
He's not the same sort of man you are speaking about.

Sounds like you are just as caught up in the excuses and denies as your daughter is. Seems you didn't learn much from your own history and instead of YOUR repeating it -- you are enabling and teaching your daughter to repeat it.

Until you both wake up -- someone is going to keep getting hurt and it won't be this guy. Secondly HE is 16? How old is SHE? Are you allowing some fucking punk kid to beat your daughter up and NOT doing anything? Are you TRYING to get someone killed whether its your daughter or some other girl who gets involved with him because YOU not showing him what he is doing is WRONG NOW, will only feed his belief he can continue doing so.

angel

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 8:38:57 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

after reading the posts on this...my only response is...

prinsexx, I don't really think you have a clue what submission is and I can only hope both you and your daughter get some deep deep therapy.

Please...for all that is sacred...leave bdsm behind. Walk away, get away from online and stop dating men for awhile and get both of you the help you both need.

Because honestly...reading this post and many many others from you...you really seem to be a very confused woman.

As usual someone who doesn't knwow me makes a sweeping statemnt: in order to do what@ Hijack a thread? Feel better now littlewonder?

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 8:40:21 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

quote:

The boy is 16. I know him well.
He's not the same sort of man you are speaking about.

Sounds like you are just as caught up in the excuses and denies as your daughter is. Seems you didn't learn much from your own history and instead of YOUR repeating it -- you are enabling and teaching your daughter to repeat it.

Until you both wake up -- someone is going to keep getting hurt and it won't be this guy. Secondly HE is 16? How old is SHE? Are you allowing some fucking punk kid to beat your daughter up and NOT doing anything? Are you TRYING to get someone killed whether its your daughter or some other girl who gets involved with him because YOU not showing him what he is doing is WRONG NOW, will only feed his belief he can continue doing so.

angel

I must have woken the snarks up I see.

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 8:47:06 AM

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quote:

(I'm still struggling with how many people on this thread are "insisting" (to put it politely) on therapy ... therapy is pointless when "forced" on people)

i agree therapy must be a choice. However, it is a fairly safe bet the op has downplayed the benefits of therapy to her daughter as she has done here.

i am in favor of therapy when there is a case of consistently returning to a non-consensual abusive situation.

What has me baffled is the op's statement that her daughter is too intelligent for a "middle class vanilla towing the line counselor who is there hiding her own bullshit".

And she is speaking as a therapist herself? Please....

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 8:51:59 AM

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I'm her mother.
And I know her.
She's a prick tease and provokes him.
She uses her beauty and her submission to get what she wants and she thought she could manipulate him.
There's a flip side to every coin.
And the side of this that no one seems to want to address is that women abuse too.
I'm not saying she deserved to get dragged along the pavement or beaten the way she did. But on the eve of going away in the army, having turned his life around the way he has, he didn't deserve some slut of a prick tease following him around the streets last night.
I'm surprised I can see it so clearly from both sides. But I can.
[/quote]Prinsexx first off I don't know you from Adam and I try VERY VERY HARD not to judge people,and resort to name calling and snarky remarks about people,but you not only do the above but talk about your own daughter like she's some piece of trash.Are you listening to yourself "'Im not saying she deserved to get dragged along the pavement or beaten the way she did."Yes you are saying exactly that by saying "she provoked him"Have you ever seen anyone literally beaten to death from a spouse or significant other?" I have and I as the police escorted her mate away in cuffs covered in her blood and all he kept saying was he didn't mean for it to go that far but she just kept provoking me.I was 10 and remember hearing my parents and their friends talk about glenda and jim and how one day she would push him to far when he'd been drinking and he was going to snap and nobody did anything to try and stop it .I'm sorry but this has opened up ghosts from my past and not making much sense.Bottom line NOBODY deserves that.And I'm telling you it can fucking happen anytime ,any day anywhere.You can either deal with it now while there's still time or be prepared to see what I saw of what was left of a family friend .Can you live with that possibility? There is no second guessing when she's dead.I pray your out come is better than Glendas was..............................Sorry for the hijack,ramble,and probably really bad spelling I'm stepping down from my soapbox now.

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RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 8:55:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

quote:

The boy is 16. I know him well.
He's not the same sort of man you are speaking about.

Sounds like you are just as caught up in the excuses and denies as your daughter is. Seems you didn't learn much from your own history and instead of YOUR repeating it -- you are enabling and teaching your daughter to repeat it.

Until you both wake up -- someone is going to keep getting hurt and it won't be this guy. Secondly HE is 16? How old is SHE? Are you allowing some fucking punk kid to beat your daughter up and NOT doing anything? Are you TRYING to get someone killed whether its your daughter or some other girl who gets involved with him because YOU not showing him what he is doing is WRONG NOW, will only feed his belief he can continue doing so.

angel

Please read.
http://psychrights.org/articles/rosenham.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cooper_(psychiatrist)

http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/psychology/maslow_pyramid.html

When you have educated yourself more fully and understood my position then mail me with something contructive to say..

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(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Young submission and its consequences - 8/9/2009 8:58:18 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

quote:

The boy is 16. I know him well.
He's not the same sort of man you are speaking about.

Sounds like you are just as caught up in the excuses

angel

I don't think I read anything about paedophilia untill brazillianone brought up the subject, I'm not sure what good it will do your trying to combine the issue into the topic?

Pirate

(in reply to barelynangel)

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