RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE".....

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RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 6:30:22 PM

Posts: 166
Joined: 2/17/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VanIsleKnight

I think I'm a bit jaded due to the types of women I've met and see in profiles. They project a really one-dimensional, materialistic image that frankly irritates me, even more so when they constantly find men to sucker in.

Apologies for my initial knee-jerk reaction.

Van,

Thank you for writing the above. What you expressed pretty much summed up the source of a lot of confusion about tributes and financial domination. The crass, boilerplate teen-age or twenty-something psuedodiva with middle finger extended is, unfortunately, the first thing that comes to mind when these ideas are brought up. It's suitable for some who are looking for that specifically, but it in no way represents the practice of financial domination or tribute as a whole.

_____________________________

S a h a r a h E v e . c o m

Do your own homework. Write your own stuff.

(in reply to VanIsleKnight)

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 6:31:49 PM

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
1. It's negative. No matter how you word your debate guys, it does begin to be, just negative whining and I effing HATE constant negativity. Just get over the fact that it exists and focus on the positive things M/s or D/s means to YOU.

Yes, rants are negative. But then what you write is a rant against rants ;-) Your post here does not define you singularly since you have other posts that present a broader picture and clarify you are not a negative person. I think what matters is whether one speaks only of negativity, or whether one has other posts and aspects of self that bring balance.

I think rants serve a purpose. They enable venting, and they bring attention to an issue that exists. Thus, while I recognize and dislike the negativity they bring, I recognize that they will always be there. And I give similar allowance for such discussions from men and from women. Are rants against men or subs not negative? Why are they treated differently?

quote:

Just start thinking of this like vanilla dating with a better (for you) POTENTIAL relationship.

quote:

Now, where the difference lies, is vanilla women rarely demand you bring them a gift. Well, guess what guys, your not dating vanilla

I apply the parallel to vanilla dating to the matter of tribute. If the matter lies outside what one might expect in vanilla dating, I find it odd. Since I find it odd to purchase a pair of shoes off a wish list in order to have a conversation, I have declined when asked to do so. I do not see why it is a good idea to treat everything as if dating vanilla until it comes to this point.

I have had reasonably good success using the vanilla parallel. The tribute phenomenon exists mostly online. So I think the point that subs are not dating vanilla and must tribute is overstated.

To me the question is why do you think it is appropriate to demand a gift?

I am a fair-minded person. I respond well to fair-minded reasoning. In the years I have been on forums, I have not seen a fair-minded response to this question. And if you say everything is not fair, fair enough ( ;-) ). If it is something that is not fair, then the rants will come.

To the extent your post seeks to silence men about the matter, I disgaree with it.

I have more points to make but must leave them for a later time.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 8/13/2009 6:32:32 PM >

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 7:01:40 PM

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
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quote:

I am a fair-minded person. I respond well to fair-minded reasoning. In the years I have been on forums, I have not seen a fair-minded response to this question.

I'm truly stunned that you've never gotten a fair-minded answer to this question. I have a very good friend who went pro-domme. She used to post here, but due to illness no longer does. I don't think she'd mind me telling her story of how and why she decided to go pro.

She was playing with a several different submissives (she called them her boys) each month, no charge. She has spent, literally, hundreds of dollars on clothes, equipment, various toys and even fed a lot of these guys several times a month. She made a pretty good living and could afford it and just loved to play.

One day a submissive was going to her house for a session and she asked him to stop for a pizza. She was going to buy dinner but had been delayed at work and just didn't have time. The submissive went off on her. Ranted and raved about how he wasn't going to 'pay' for her service, it wasn't right that he should have to put out money yadda, yadda. Keep in mind, she'd already spent several hundred dollars and he had no problem taken advantage of the things that her money had purchased.

Well, that tripped her trigger and it dawned on her that not once, not a single time, had any of these guys ever offered to foot the bill for anything. So, she started asking for a few small things. At first it was for exclusive items to be purchased to be used only on the boy who purchased them. That was grumbled at by a few so she dumped them and concentrated on the ones who didn't mind buying their own toys. Then, after a while, one of the submissives bought her a great pair of thigh high boots. That rocked her world. Soon, she started asking for a few other things.. mostly clothing items that she would wear not just for the guys that purchased them but some of her other boys as well.

Time passed, a few years and she had a diverse and huge collection of items/clothing to use in her sessions. She made a request to one of her boys to purchase, I think it was a pair of boots, and rather than go buy the boots, he gave her the cash to go buy them. She went full blown pro, cash only after that since she was pretty well set in the toys/clothing department and the boys that wanted her time, effort and the use of her toys but weren't willing to pay a 'fair share' for their enjoyment, she dumped.

That seems fair to me. It's a matter of overhead and economics. Every session involves electricity, wear and tear on clothing, toys and equipment, consumables like candles or needles, etc. Why should only one person be footing the bill for everything when both people are getting enjoyment?

Oh, and that first 'boy' that bought that first pair of boots. They're married now.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to undergroundsea)

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 7:13:48 PM

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I've read most of the posts here, and have mixed feelings on the whole thing. I think it's wonderful that the OP has a loving, giving sub. He appears to be quite generous to others as well. They appear to have a dynamic that is successful. However, I take issue with the OP listing everything and then implying that giving in such a way is how "real men" do it. It cheapens the whole post, in my opinion.

I not the type of Domme who would ever require a tribute, and I am turned off when I see them requested, but I also believe male subs have brains. If they choose to pay tribute, that is their decision. The tribute thing wouldn't exist if there weren't subs buying into it.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 7:43:11 PM

Posts: 2400
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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

I am a fair-minded person. I respond well to fair-minded reasoning. In the years I have been on forums, I have not seen a fair-minded response to this question.

I'm truly stunned that you've never gotten a fair-minded answer to this question. I have a very good friend who went pro-domme. She used to post here, but due to illness no longer does. I don't think she'd mind me telling her story of how and why she decided to go pro.

You bring up a good point, which is to define tribute. By tribute, I do not mean what might be paid to a professional domme as a fee for a session. While you make a reference to professional domination, you speak of tribute in a non-professional capacity.

I have heard this justification before where the basis for demanding tribute is that one person has spent hundreds of dollars on toys. I have spent hundreds of dollars on toys, service items, and fetish clothing. I have hosted many times and have never thought to ask anyone to compensate me for it.

Would you say that a man who has invested in toys or clothes should be compensated for it by his play partners?

If you do, then we simply disagree about whether a man in this situation should expect a tribute. I would not want one of my play partners to offer me money because we use my toys, or my house, or whatever.

If you do not think a man in this situation should accept tribute then we agree. However, then the principle which you attribute to your friend does not universally hold.

For the most part, I have encountered good people. When I have encountered a person who I felt was selfish, I backed away.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 8/13/2009 8:35:45 PM >

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 7:46:33 PM

Posts: 2400
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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyJulieAnn
I think it's wonderful that the OP has a loving, giving sub. He appears to be quite generous to others as well.

To me, that he had personally gone to fix the ac, and helped with an aging relative and a family member who needed a new lifeline is what speaks most and characterizes the sincerity of the rest of his gifts.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to LadyJulieAnn)

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 7:54:12 PM

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Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

To me the question is why do you think it is appropriate to demand a gift?

I am a fair-minded person. I respond well to fair-minded reasoning. In the years I have been on forums, I have not seen a fair-minded response to this question. And if you say everything is not fair, fair enough ( ;-) ). If it is something that is not fair, then the rants will come.

To the extent your post seeks to silence men about the matter, I disgaree with it.

I have more points to make but must leave them for a later time.

Cheers,

Sea

The word "demand" is misleading. Of course someone who wants a transactional-based "pro domme" session but not in a dungeon will just demand they get a gift valued at x, or just cash, and say "that's the tribute required" and whatever. That's not what we are talking about.

We're talking about women who expect to be courted on some level if a submissive is interested in her taking the time to get to know him, just the same as it goes in vanilla circles. Nothing more, nothing less. As others have pointed out, the "dollar amount" on that doesn't matter; a lot of women just want the investment of TIME, and others may be used to finer things and that's just how they expect to be treated. Guy doesn't like it? Don't date her. Better to find out now she has rich tastes than to marry her and have her break the bank later.

What irks me is that sub men use the fact that some women are scammers as an *excuse* to be cheap. Dominant women, by their nature and also because of what submissive men want/need, tend to be direct. Blunt. Look, you want to date me, show up with flowers on the first date. Why am I telling you this? Because while more than half of vanilla guys "get it" and do it anyway, most subs don't, unless they are TOLD. You think women like having to spell out to a guy, "You know what...if you really like me, it is sweet if you show it by offering to pay for a meal, or send a card on my birthday. Otherwise, you look cheap." So they state it up front: I expect to be treated a certain way. If you don't like it, don't date me.

Most of this does not apply to me. Even when I dated, I liked to be the one asking a guy out, and I felt powerful dropping my credit card on the table for dinner, or showing up with a limo, or saying, "I'm flying you to SF for the weekend, pack your bags." I liked *courting* guys and making them feel all special and sexy because I could afford it, and being generous is fun. Did I get burned? Sure, lots of times. It doesn't stop me from giving guys gifts when I like them - I find that kind of exchange erotic.

But in cases where a man is courting a woman, "vying for her attention," wanting to make an impression, geez you think women were expecting him to sign over his savings, when really most are saying, "buy a sweet gift to show you care; it means a lot to us." All these sub men are so desperately clinging to their wallets it's sad. You think that it's attractive? If you DIG a woman, you see her, she wows you, you want to IMPRESS her, can't you take a little "risk" and spend time/money to take her to a nice dinner? Why do vanilla guys like to impress, to "wine and dine," etc?

Guys immediately zone in on the dollar amount and what's in it for him. Where are the guys that actually enjoy the process of giving, of courting, of romancing? Of feeling that if he wants to make her feel special, he should do a gesture, either creative or otherwise? When I was courting, I ENJOYED the process of spoiling a guy, of buying him gifts.

I can't believe how cheap sub guys are. Seriously. And that you cheap ones defend it so passionately just because you don't want to get ripped off. How sad for the woman that comes along and may take interest in you, but realizes you are cheap and a tightwad, and she goes on to someone who is happy to take her out to dinner and a show, or send her flowers, or send a card -- vs. those that only do such a thing when they feel their investment will pay back.

Akasha

_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to undergroundsea)

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 7:54:48 PM

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How IS your vanilla dating life going, Peon? Have you met a really great vanilla woman yet? Are you making the transition well to being a vanilla guy? Hopefully. I think in the end we all need to be happy, in whatever form that takes for each of us. Best of luck to you

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 8:27:12 PM

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Joined: 7/7/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

1 a : a payment by one ruler or nation to another in acknowledgment of submission or as the price of protection ; also : the tax levied for such a payment b (1) : an excessive tax, rental, or tariff imposed by a government, sovereign, lord, or landlord (2) : an exorbitant charge levied by a person or group having the power of coercion c : the liability to pay tribute
2 a : something given or contributed voluntarily as due or deserved ; especially : a gift or service showing respect, gratitude, or affection <floral tribute> b : something (as material evidence or a formal attestation) that indicates the worth, virtue, or effectiveness of the one in question <the product is a tribute to their ingenuity>

Reading through the posts, i see a disconnect between some people viewing monetary tributes as definintion 1b (1) and (2) and others seeing monetary tributes as 2a and 2b. It is an irritant indeed, when someone requires excessive monetary contributions without being worthy of them. Not all monetary tributes are excessive or exorbitant and not all people claiming D-status are worthy of them. Perhaps for someone, whatever act Xhe offered would be all that was needed to be considered worthy. Perhaps for someone, what is considered excessive is extremely different because of one's financial situation. i would hope that the Domme one engages with is able to tailor Her control in this regard in the same manner that She tailors Her control over you in other ways--dominating *you*, not the *idea* of you.

my ex-Domme needed extremely different kinds of tribute from me and my sub-brother. From him, She required he find a whole new, more lucrative, career as She expected Him to be Her world-traveling companion and to foot His share of the bill. It did create a lot of stress in Our family, She pushed Him too fast in some ways: requiring that He spend borrowed money He hadn't earned yet. Lucky, the storm was weathered, He did find a more lucrative career--one He deeply enjoys to boot, thus killing more birds with one type of control: moola'. It could have worked a different way and the whole thing could have come crashing down around Our ears.

From me, She enjoyed tributes that were more "service" oriented, more personal gifts. An example: the time i called out from work to care for Her when She had a cold. The loss of wages would be the monetary factor, but She found it all the more pleasant because of the nursing i gave her. She also enjoyed being given things like mixed tapes, baked goods, small things like that.

i have a question, and i hope it isn't considered a derailment of the thread.
Where does "service" end and "tribute" begin to you? i'm thinking of the old saying, "Time is money."

edited to add the smiley.

< Message edited by petmonkey -- 8/13/2009 8:33:56 PM >

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 8:34:53 PM

Posts: 1511
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Arillis,

quote:

Elan, the old adage "the cream rises to the top" once again evidences itself in your words. Elegance, intelligence, social grace, sophistication and a deeper understanding of the honor codes that lives within the male who will subject himself to the authority of a female leap from your words. No gift remains a gift when demanded upon.

There are certain topics that always seem to polarize. Anything regarding tributes fits this mold. And indeed, I walked in and swallowed hook, line, and sinker. It's better just to stay out of these threads because they always end up vitriolic and passionately stupid, with each person having viable, logical reasons for their stance. This particular OP compelled me to respond because I connected with how I might feel (which is not very good) were my partner to publish something similar.

Admittedly, when I read the OP today, it comes across differently than when I initially responded. I think TM is showing appreciation and love for her submissive. In essence, the OP is a love letter made public. This is rather sweet. As for the aspects of the OP that are derisive and demeaning to others, these are seemingly an unintended misstep, but not the focus of the OP. We all make these kinds of social blunders from time-to-time so perhaps I reacted overly quickly. Still, on initial reading, the OP does come across in a nasty, tactless way and again, I now believe this is unintentional.

Thank you for your compliments on my writing, Arillis. I'm not sure I deserve such high praise, but I'll humbly accept and again offer appreciation and thanks.

Elan.

(in reply to Arillis)

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 8:37:00 PM

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I pretty much agree with Sea's reasoning in response to you here.

Some folks have thrown personal anecdotes into the mix, so I'll throw one in too.

Years ago I was having an email exchange with Domme in CA whom I thought was pretty cool. We're on opposite coasts, so nothing was going to "happen." So, I mentioned to her that I'd love to have coffee with her e.g. that it would be fun to have an actual conversation in person. Her reply was she'd love to do the same if I paid for the coffee.

Have to say that I was fucking stunned. Who even gives a shit about who pays for the coffee?? I mean, WTF was that? I mean, like, really.......

I get having coffee and noticing that I don't offer to pay when we are there --- I'm cool with that -- but the above... that's just messed up.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 8:38:59 PM

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I guess service (for ME) is something I expect and tribute is something they do on their own.

(in reply to petmonkey)

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 8:48:19 PM

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quote:

I can't believe how cheap sub guys are. Seriously.

Seems to me sub guys are pretty generous with you, and where exactly are you gathering reliable information to make this generalization? How exactly do you make these conclusions when you are essentially a married, monogamous person?

Also, what sub guy here is defending "being cheap?" I haven't seen that in this thread.

It seems to me here you are overreacting in the same way you say femdoms overreact.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 8:49:41 PM

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Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

I can't believe how cheap sub guys are. Seriously.

Seems to me sub guys are pretty generous with you, and where exactly are you gathering reliable information to make this generalization? How exactly do you make these conclusions when you are essentially a married, monogamous person?

Also, what sub guy here is defending "being cheap?" I haven't seen that in this thread.

It seems to me here you are overreacting in the same way you say femdoms overreact.

Newsflash: I am in an open relationship as of this year, yah!!

Akasha

_____________________________

Akasha's Web - All original Femdom content since 1995
Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 8:50:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I mentioned to her that I'd love to have coffee with her e.g. that it would be fun to have an actual conversation in person. Her reply was she'd love to do the same if I paid for the coffee.

Are you sure that wasn't a joke? That sounds like something someone would say in jest. In my case, I find coffee so vile, you'd have to pay me to drink it.

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 8:51:03 PM

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Joined: 8/10/2009
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this is... troubling. if texasmaam and her partner are happy with their arrangement, that's great for them. but this:

quote:

I just had to share tonight's experience for those Dommes who are bombarded by whiney, wimpy, pathetic drips who have NO clue what it is to support the kind of woman they long to serve.

and this:

quote:

...and the rest of you whiney, petulant, selfish, self absorbed limpdicks can sit up and take notice of how a 'real man' pays tribute to his Domme!

seem to imply that a financial arrangement of this kind is requisite to being a good sub, which is indeed problematic. more worrying, however, is the rapidity and severity with which vanisleknight was reprimanded for expressing a dissenting opinion, how quickly that opinion was dismissed without (in my view) more thoughtful engagement, and how callously his integrity/legitimacy as a sub was called into question as a result.

i was under the impression that male subs were human beings free to use this forum to express themselves, and that the forums were indeed a place to discuss bdsm, its many manifestations, and people's diverging opinions thereof.

(in reply to StoneFox)

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 9:12:34 PM

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cloudboy,

quote:

So, I mentioned to her that I'd love to have coffee with her e.g. that it would be fun to have an actual conversation in person. Her reply was she'd love to do the same if I paid for the coffee. Have to say that I was fucking stunned. Who even gives a shit about who pays for the coffee?? I mean, WTF was that? I mean, like, really... I get having coffee and noticing that I don't offer to pay when we are there -- I'm cool with that -- but the above... that's just messed up.

This wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, but it would cause me to ask questions and explore what was behind it. Sometimes people voice things in a way that isn't what it actually seems. Certainly though, I wouldn't want to be with a partner who viewed me solely as an extension of her paycheque. I think we all (to some degree) consider how a potential partner will fit into and participate in our lifestyles and goals. But, there is a balance here. While money plays an important role in day-to-day living and planning for the future, I don't think money is the basis of love. When a relationship is based only on money, I can't imaging this ultimately being very rewarding for the partners involved.

Elan.

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 9:14:58 PM

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delonval,

+1

(...forum-speak for "I agree with you". :-)

Elan.

< Message edited by ElanSubdued -- 8/13/2009 9:17:32 PM >

(in reply to delonval)

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 9:23:56 PM

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I don't know -- it is kind of funny. Being on opposite coasts, though, I'll never know. Everyone has their own inventory of "little things" that happened in relationships -- our own proverbial Seinfeld moments.

Somewhat true to TM's thread, tho, I've been having to really remind myself that the world and the people in it aren't here to conform to me or my ideals.

(in reply to Venatrix)

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OL... - 8/13/2009 9:35:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I need to egg someone on at least once a day here. Otherwise, people would think I wasn't feeling well.

'
just remember, bear poking is best done with very long sticks

_____________________________

I have believed the best of every man. And find that to believe is enough to make a bad man show him at his best, or even a good man swings his lantern higher.- yeats

(in reply to LadyPact)

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