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RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 1:16:16 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

You know who else chooses their lifestyle? Self mutilators. Drug addicts. Serial killers. They're all doing what makes them happy, what gives them a rush, a release, what makes them feel truly "themselves."

Happy doesn't equal healthy.

Actually, it does. Because human sentience prioritizes psychological happiness over bodily health. The nonsensical suggestion otherwise is why I won't be able to buy clove cigarettes once stores run out of their stock: because some moralistic self-righteous crusader(s) feel they have the place to decide for me what happiness should be.


I'm not just talking about bodily health here, you know. I'm talking about emotional and mental health as well.

quote:

I don't recall any adage that ever read: "Life, liberty. and the pursuit of health".


No, but there are laws against physically harming someone. Not laws against making them unhappy.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Just because people like it doesn't make it right. Taken to the extreme, that line of thought is pure hedonism.

Yes, it does. That is precisely what "right" is. This is a base tenet in the understanding of anthropological human philosophy. We are all hedonists. The only difference between people is that some hedonists are deluded as to their hedonism being one that must be universal.


Wow I completely disagree with that. So much so that I don't think there can be any resolution.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Yeah see that's the thing. I can't stop you from seeking out relationships like that. And you can't stop me from intending to call the police if I witness a relationship like that.

That's a fundamentally cowardly point of view. It's moral blackmail. It's repulsive. It's only permissibility being that human thought and tolerance has not graduated to a sufficient level to where people can't get away with stuff like this.


How exactly is trying to stop domestic violence a cowardly thing? I swear to god, people are all like 'oh they're just doing what they want' well what are you going to say if he kills her? Accidentally or intentionally? Do you seriously not think that she's in an abusive relationship with an inherently unequal status that would make any notion of consent flimsy?

quote:

These words may as well have been spoken by a white supremacist 60 years ago threatening to call the cops on a white woman who is having a liaison with a black man.


Only if that black man were regularly beating her to the point of hospitalization, gang raping her, and legally in charge of her health and finances. So in other words the situations aren't even remotely parallel.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

No, I don't get it, and I likely never will. That doesn't mean I have to turn into froofy bunny girl and say I'm okay you're okay we're all okay, let's just do what gets us off. Yeah it's possible that at a current stage someone would want a relationship with someone who would murder them for talking a certain way. That doesn't mean there's no room for self improvement.

Just no room for your self-improvement, right? No room to understand this mentality makes you no better than any bigot of any era in human history. People all throughout civilization have committed atrocities not because they were bad people inherently, but because they so fervently believed they knew how other people should live that they were willing to threaten the sanctity of those people's lives to assuage their dogmatic delusions.


No room for yours then either, bloody hypocrite. I say Daddysprop's guardian should change his actions and ethics cuz I think they're fucked up. You say I should change my actions and ethics cuz you think they're fucked up.

I find it absoulutely fucking reprehensible that you're comparing my desire to CALL THE POLICE with historical atrocities, while skimming over this guy SUBJECTING HIS LEGAL WARD TO GANG RAPES AND BROKEN BONES and calling it fucking sanctified just because someone chooses to do it.

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 401
RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 1:16:58 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		<snip>
Do you remember when we first started talking on IM? How you said that being a slave was what you want, and I'd always come back to saying "how do you know that you can't change? How do you know that this isn't just a symptom of mental illness and if you got to a more stable point you wouldn't want this anymore?" and your response was basically "I don't care, I want it and I don't see anything bad in wanting it."
<snip>

Should those who seek to not be enslaved check themselves out for showing devastating symptoms of mental illness as well? Should people who postulate maybes be committed? Young boys dreaming of being cowboys? Young girls dreaming of being princesses? Those who prefer peanutbutter on toast to rare filet mignon?

Waltz me the fuck thru the logic of this, I don't get it. The subjectivity of that judgement being somehow right, and just and proper is way way way way beyond the pale of reason.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 402
RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 1:18:30 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: VirginPotty

quote:

Just because people like it doesn't make it right. Taken to the extreme, that line of thought is pure hedonism.


quote:

Yes, it does. That is precisely what "right" is. This is a base tenet in the understanding of anthropological human philosophy. We are all hedonists. The only difference between people is that some hedonists are deluded as to their hedonism being one that must be universal.


Following that logic NZ, since pedophiles like kids does that make it right?
Just a question, not a comparison to the topic at hand.

No, because I have always drawn the line, and specifically have done so in this thread, at consensual actions.

So, without getting into a REALLY outlandish discussion as to what prerequisities should qualify someone for the ability to make that choice, let's just continue the conversation under the general presumption that divides minors from adults.



Legally there is very little difference between Daddysprop and a minor. At least as far as things like signing contracts, opening bank accounts, making medical decisions, and consenting to brutal torture at the hands of her guardian.

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 403
RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 1:19:55 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
I believe laws should serve the best interests of the people, not their every whim.


By whose metric?

quote:

but in this case I do believe that if the law were to be enforced it would be in Daddysprop's best interest.


By whose metric?

quote:

Do you remember when we first started talking on IM? How you said that being a slave was what you want, and I'd always come back to saying "how do you know that you can't change? How do you know that this isn't just a symptom of mental illness and if you got to a more stable point you wouldn't want this anymore?" and your response was basically "I don't care, I want it and I don't see anything bad in wanting it."

That sort of thought is so self destructive.


BY WHOSE METRIC?


(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 404
RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 1:20:33 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

<snip>
Do you remember when we first started talking on IM? How you said that being a slave was what you want, and I'd always come back to saying "how do you know that you can't change? How do you know that this isn't just a symptom of mental illness and if you got to a more stable point you wouldn't want this anymore?" and your response was basically "I don't care, I want it and I don't see anything bad in wanting it."
<snip>

Should those who seek to not be enslaved check themselves out for showing devastating symptoms of mental illness as well? Should people who postulate maybes be committed? Young boys dreaming of being cowboys? Young girls dreaming of being princesses? Those who prefer peanutbutter on toast to rare filet mignon?

Waltz me the fuck thru the logic of this, I don't get it. The subjectivity of that judgement being somehow right, and just and proper is way way way way beyond the pale of reason.

Ron


Psychology defines mental disorder relative to the culture the patient identifies with. It's rarely an objective thing except in extreme cases.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 405
RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 1:21:52 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
I believe laws should serve the best interests of the people, not their every whim.


By whose metric?

quote:

but in this case I do believe that if the law were to be enforced it would be in Daddysprop's best interest.


By whose metric?

quote:

Do you remember when we first started talking on IM? How you said that being a slave was what you want, and I'd always come back to saying "how do you know that you can't change? How do you know that this isn't just a symptom of mental illness and if you got to a more stable point you wouldn't want this anymore?" and your response was basically "I don't care, I want it and I don't see anything bad in wanting it."

That sort of thought is so self destructive.


BY WHOSE METRIC?




I'll give you a hint. The first two quotes contained the phrase "I believe" and the third was quoting myself.

Not terribly hard to figure that one out.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 406
RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 1:22:47 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Psychology defines mental disorder relative to the culture the patient identifies with. It's rarely an objective thing except in extreme cases.


Heck, it's subjective even in extreme cases. There's just an underlying current of "fuck it, we have power and we're going to use it."

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 407
RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 1:23:39 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Psychology defines mental disorder relative to the culture the patient identifies with. It's rarely an objective thing except in extreme cases.


Heck, it's subjective even in extreme cases. There's just an underlying current of "fuck it, we have power and we're going to use it."


How cynical is that? Seriously.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 408
RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 1:24:12 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
I'll give you a hint. The first two quotes contained the phrase "I believe" and the third was quoting myself.

Not terribly hard to figure that one out.


Okay then. So if this is entirely your metric, why should anyone but you care about it? Why shouldn't people strive against your attempt to impose it upon the world, if their own metrics diverge from yours?

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 409
RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 1:25:16 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
How cynical is that? Seriously.


That's... not an argument against its veracity.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 410
RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 1:25:55 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
I'll give you a hint. The first two quotes contained the phrase "I believe" and the third was quoting myself.

Not terribly hard to figure that one out.


Okay then. So if this is entirely your metric, why should anyone but you care about it? Why shouldn't people strive against your attempt to impose it upon the world, if their own metrics diverge from yours?


Absolutely no reason at all. I don't expect anyone to just shut up and follow me. I'm just giving my opinion and at times acting on it. Everyone else will likely do the same.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 411
RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 1:28:05 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
How cynical is that? Seriously.


That's... not an argument against its veracity.


Well there's really no argument for or against it. You have one opinion of peoples motivations, I have a differing one. Without any objective proof we'd just be theorizing.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 412
RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 1:28:52 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		So don't coming whining to us when your neighbour calls the police and hauls your beloved away. You screaming, "I consented!! I consented!!!!!!!!"

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 413
RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 1:30:09 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Well, psychology has had little commerce with happiness and serenity in the whole. Because someone spent alotta time thinking about his mother when he beat off and therefore declared a lemma that that's what is at the base of pudpounding (and it ain't, I am a professional, don't do this at home kids) and it is aberrant behavior, don't fuckin necessarily make it so.

They can mask goofy fuckers by whacking them out with drugs, but other than that is is large treatises on asswipe and clinical statistics.

And culture? Now, I am an American of Norwegian/English background, which is to say all Norwegian.......what is my culture and who is the sport that is gonna define it for me, besides me?

Regardless of the prop question, one only needs to consider the style and level of writing and you are not dealing with your average slobbering pool of jello there....and so more than meets the eye and not one that the tutored or untutored should analyze and prescribe for, any more than the fuckwads like Dr. Phil should. Or Oprah.

Ron



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 414
RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 1:40:10 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

So don't coming whining to us when your neighbour calls the police and hauls your beloved away. You screaming, "I consented!! I consented!!!!!!!!"


I won't.

If I were truly worried about the law, I'd become an activist to change it. Not whine when my neighbor follows it.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 415
RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 2:00:44 PM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
I believe laws should serve the best interests of the people, not their every whim.


Their best interest as defined by whom?
You think it's morally just to force people to all live by the same rules based on... based on what exactly?
I can't belief that after all this time hanging around Goreans, you are advocating AGAINST freedom...
Or when you claim you are not doing that (which you're gonna) let me put it like this: you are advocating that a rule based morality better defined freedom than a agent based morality...
Again, who have you been hanging out with in the last two years?

quote:



I think there's a third option besides "emotionally unstable" and "nonconsenting" - well, maybe not for THIS type of relationship. But for relationships in general.


Emotionally unstable according to what definition? The legal one?
So now legal = moral?
She's not asking for help, what more do you want? How is it any of your business? Who are you, or anybody else, to determine what is in 'her best interest?'


quote:


Do you remember when we first started talking on IM? How you said that being a slave was what you want, and I'd always come back to saying "how do you know that you can't change? How do you know that this isn't just a symptom of mental illness and if you got to a more stable point you wouldn't want this anymore?" and your response was basically "I don't care, I want it and I don't see anything bad in wanting it."

That sort of thought is so self destructive. And not only that, but you've also said things like you're a slave and you need someone to step in and control your life.

Why's it okay for a man to step in and control you, but not a legal system? Other than one suits your hedonistic desires and the other doesn't?


So self-destruction is your big issue that defines legal incompetence, not harmful to others (which is a situation where I CAN agree with the need/right of society to intervene.)

Bella, I hereby declare you incompetent to make your own decisions.
I mean, come on, be serious...
You smoke, you drink, you are overweight, and you do a whole lot of other things that are absolutely self-destructive.
It is clear that you are not capable to make your own decisions and you need an "outside force" to determine what is right for you.
They need to put you in therapy right away to discover what is wrong with you that would cause you to do such gruesome things to yourself.
I mean, you are positively suicidal, you're slowly trying to kill yourself and all... what's up with that?

You get my point Bella... self-destructive by whose definition?
Should we just outlaw cigarettes, and fast-food, skydiving, alcohol?
What about driving a car?
Eating meat?
Building a campfire in your backyard when you've got friends over?

Where are you going to draw that line?
Why do you even care, if it doesn't affect you?

quote:


Depends on how you view consent in relation to emotional or mental instability.

Yeah let's say they were my neighbors, and I listened to you and didn't do anything.

Then the next week he kills her.

What are you going to do, buy me a cookie and tell me it's okay that I abandoned my own ethical code with disastrous consequences, cause it "wasn't my fault?"


You know me and my morality Bella, you know how I would feel about it...
I would consider the fact that you were emotionally disturbed to the point that you would be to be a symptom of one of the problems of our current society.
Doesn't mean that I would approve of his actions, nor does it mean that I cannot imagine a context in which I feel legal prosecution would be due... but I still wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
More so, I would consider YOU the one to be in need of therapy because you were losing sleep over it.

quote:

The girl's been declared mentally incompetent due to severe emotional imbalance. Therapy's only step one.


So what's the next?
How far would you go to forcibly save somebody that doesn't want to be saved?

quote:



No, not because they have a different lifestyle. Because the consequences of that lifestyle are brutal and dangerous and I find her ability to consent to it questionable at best.

People call self mutilation a "cry for help," even though if you ask most cutters they'd tell you fuck off, they're happy destroying their skin.


See my comments about your smoking...
You're damaging your body Bella, you're crying for help, that's obvious.
The results of that might be brutal and dangerous. (Might just as some men might end up killing their women.)
Obviously your ability to consent is questionable to me (seeing that I don't agree with what you are doing, how about we talk around in some more nice circles?)
So I know what I am to do, I need to fly my ass to Aussie land and come save you from that gruesome self destructive life you lead...
But fear not babe, I'm on my way... as soon as Master lets me.

I wish you well,

ishy


_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 416
RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 2:04:32 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline 		I think you missed the part where I said that psychiatry defines mental disorder as relative to the society with which one identifies.

(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 417
RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 2:09:25 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
I think you missed the part where I said that psychiatry defines mental disorder as relative to the society with which one identifies.


Actually, it's far more accurate to say that psychiatry defines mental disorders as relative to the society that one is identified with.

This isn't about choice. If I'm 8 years old, and I say I don't want to take my ADHD meds because kids in other countries wouldn't consider my behavior problematic, good fucking luck there. If I'm 14, and I start fights at school, and I say it's okay because I'm really part of some "proud warrior culture" and I believe it's the right way to handle things, good fucking luck there. If I'm 28, and I start a fling with a 14 year old, and I say it's okay because I feel like I'm really Bedouin inside, good fucking luck there.

Even when we're "healthy", we don't get to pick. Everybody has to conform to some degree or another.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 418
RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 2:11:59 PM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I think you missed the part where I said that psychiatry defines mental disorder as relative to the society with which one identifies.


Oh now you’re giving me an even easier way out dear.

You see... and wait... hold on... you guessed it...

I don't identify with our current Western society.

And in fact, the society I DO identify with (and let’s not make this topic another of target topic in the BDSM forum about that please...) considers my behavior to be perfectly fine and natural...

So there, I've just proven that I'm perfectly sane and able to consent... by your own definition...
I bet the same reasoning applies to other girls like me.
So hang up the phone and leave us be happy, would you please?


_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 419
RE: what is TPE 24/7? - 10/6/2009 2:13:47 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
I think you missed the part where I said that psychiatry defines mental disorder as relative to the society with which one identifies.


Actually, it's far more accurate to say that psychiatry defines mental disorders as relative to the society that one is identified with.

This isn't about choice. If I'm 8 years old, and I say I don't want to take my ADHD meds because kids in other countries wouldn't consider my behavior problematic, good fucking luck there. If I'm 14, and I start fights at school, and I say it's okay because I'm really part of some "proud warrior culture" and I believe it's the right way to handle things, good fucking luck there. If I'm 28, and I start a fling with a 14 year old, and I say it's okay because I feel like I'm really Bedouin inside, good fucking luck there.

Even when we're "healthy", we don't get to pick. Everybody has to conform to some degree or another.



Yes, that is a better way to put it.

You only have to conform to society's expectations so long as you choose to indulge in society's comforts. Things like electricity and a sewage system. Uncultivated land in the middle of nowhere is pretty cheap. Especially if you know how to dig your own wells.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 420
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