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Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 12:39:05 PM

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Is this possible?

In light of a recent event, I am curious. This has come up in a certain circle with whom I speak regularly. The gal, like me, is switchie and tends to be more heavily submissive, but can be sparked by just the right subbie. She tends to be more submissive to men and dominant toward women. She took a new prospective male submissive into private for the first time the other day. He persisted in "wanting to please" her sexually. For whatever reason, he managed to push things further and further and the session ended with her feeling strangely used and violated despite she was supposedly in control of the whole thing. Before the question comes up, yes she said no to many things and repeatedly and no. she did not struggle for unknown reason, probably just trying to get her mind around what was happening. What do you think? Was this rape?

lovingpet

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 12:50:16 PM

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Wow. Big question.

From my perspective, I am going to say "no, not so much." Was it icky and not desirable, and not what she planned? Obvy. I don't know if *I* would call it rape if it happened to me. Me being cranky old domly type. If I say NO, and it isn't obeyed, a Secret Handshake comes into play, and whatever STOPS. If that doesn't work, and I am physically overpowered (a totally possible thing, which thank heavens has never happened) well yeah, I would call that rape.

Losing control of a situation, and letting it go too far... is a violation, yes, but to me, more of a mental thing. I know I have been taken advantage of in the past, for a variety of reasons. I felt badly about that, that I was not being dominant enough, not really in control, caved in, whatever. Icky.

So, if you don't fight back, have you acquiesced? Isn't that the kind of line that gets thrown in the face of rape victims all the time?

Sounds like I am saying that, doesn't it, and it is not what I mean to say! This is an issue that's been whirling around in my head for a few months now, due to a local Happening where the lines were very very blurred. What definitions of rape are we using? Are there varieties of "no"?

Dagnabbit, I didn't want to have any serious thoughts today!

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 12:52:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

Is this possible?

In light of a recent event, I am curious. This has come up in a certain circle with whom I speak regularly. The gal, like me, is switchie and tends to be more heavily submissive, but can be sparked by just the right subbie. She tends to be more submissive to men and dominant toward women. She took a new prospective male submissive into private for the first time the other day. He persisted in "wanting to please" her sexually. For whatever reason, he managed to push things further and further and the session ended with her feeling strangely used and violated despite she was supposedly in control of the whole thing. Before the question comes up, yes she said no to many things and repeatedly and no. she did not struggle for unknown reason, probably just trying to get her mind around what was happening. What do you think? Was this rape?

lovingpet

Not to me. Over the line, yes......but rape is too strong a word for what is described........to me.

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 12:57:14 PM

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Glad to hear that, LaT... did you know that you can stick your hand up someone's pussy against their will and it isn't rape? Yepper! Hereabouts, anyway...

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 1:02:00 PM

subtlebutterfly

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FR agree with tiger on this one, I think calling it a rape is too extreme.

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 1:21:47 PM

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Yeah, see, and that's where my question comes from. Supposedly, she was the one in control of everything and, therefore, if that came to an end somehow, it is her own fault and just an icky experience and one where she has to learn to keep things in hand better in the future. On the other hand, there is that old standby of, "If it feels like rape, then it is rape." I go with that in many cases that come through to doors of the DV shelter where I volunteer. A lack of struggle and even a lack of the word "no" is not necessary to make a case for it being rape. We are talking about full penetrative sex here, so in theoretical legal sense, it would be prosecutable as rape based on her statements that she was not consenting and was penetrated anyway. I dunno. That's why I brought it here.

lovingpet

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 1:28:24 PM

subtlebutterfly

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You can call everything rape. I could call my unsatisfactory one night stands a rape and could prosecute the ppls 'cause well I wasn't entirely sure if I wanted to fuck them or not.
You also need to realize what it means for the "do-er". In my opinion it needs to be a strict and consistent "no" and even more for it to qualify as a rape. She backed down, even though she may feel shitty afterwards then bugger for her. It does not, in my mind, qualify as a rape.
When people are horny they aint thinking straight so it needs to be told in a direct strict and consistent manner. If she backed down, how on earth was he supposed to know he was "raping" her.

a dom said no and he said no plenty of times but the girl kept pushing so the session ended with them fucking and she left n he felt confused and violated...does this sound like a rape? No, the guy would be laughed at..he simply got da sex of his life.

< Message edited by subtlebutterfly -- 10/12/2009 1:36:40 PM >

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 1:29:05 PM

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That subbie topped from the bottom she should have kicked him out immediately! and if he wouldn't go she should have called the police. He knew what he wanted sex and he got it. No! is No! in any situation if she felt violated it was rape or sexual assault depending on the facts. I suggest she stop being "Domme" because it's obvious she's not. Call the Police because he will do it again to some other "Domme"

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 1:39:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtlebutterfly

You can call everything rape. I could call my unsatisfactory one night stands a rape and could prosecute the ppls 'cause well I wasn't entirely sure if I wanted to fuck them or not.
You also need to realize what it means for the "do-er". In my opinion it needs to be a strict and consistent "no" and even more for it to qualify as a rape. She backed down, even though she may feel shitty afterwards then bugger for her. It does not, in my mind, qualify as a rape.
When people are horny they aint thinking straight so it needs to be told in a direct strict and consistent manner. If she backed down, how on earth was he supposed to know he was "raping" her.

I tend to agree insomuch as I believe most highly in personal responsibility. Do you think part of the expectation is stemming from her position within the attempted dynamic though? There are plenty of situations where one partner backs down despite wanting things to stop. It is a pretty common experience for a lot of people. I understand intimately what the consequences are for the doer, which is why I would be so careful making such a determination and deciding whether or not to pursue criminal charges. In honesty, if it were me in this case, I would NOT, but that is me. My sense of it is that my implied control by being in the dynamic would nullify my right to complain after the fact in this particular instance. Under other circumstances, regardless of dynamic, I may think differently. It seems to kind of echo a blame the victim mentality though. Just because she was SUPPOSED to have control of the situation doesn't mean she DID.

FoxyDom, I don't agree. I think she is well suited to dominate some people. This person was not one of them. In likelihood, she may not have the capacity to interact with a male in a dominant fashion. I think it is out of place to define another person for them. I agree, however, that no means no and he had no business pursuing things after that point. I am still on the fence as far as it being assault or rape, however.

lovingpet

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 1:53:50 PM

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Hello A/all,

Frankly I am stumped by this one. I am a 'subbie' to the core; but, I do find the prospect of a Switch-Session to have an appeal. I imagine that such a scene would require a very careful set of ground rules before play started.

At the least, this is topping-from -the-bottom at the extreme.

Respectfully,
Mike
SnowRanger

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 1:56:57 PM

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I would have to know more about her history and such before I could determine anything. On one hand I think one way and on the other I think differently. I know some who are stunned... say no but cannot fight for some reason. Then there are some who might be over the top on the emotions of what happened and they weren't really rape type emotions, but confusing and for lack of a way to sort it out, they feel more forced. It is simply too hard to say with the information given and so much unknown.

No means no... but how many in play in bdsm and d/s say no as part of the play? There are too many factors that would mean I could not determine what I am not sure she even can determine at this point.

I would venture to say that once more power/dominance was shown, even though she felt she should be the dominant... he took over and she may have gone to a more submissive place in her mind... not that she wanted to submit, but was not sure how to handle it. That is why I am saying she may have lost her barings and may have had some emotional stuff going on and he didn't understand because he just took in play. I am sure he would say that... but at the same time... no means no unless you have those dynamic's covered in discussion and he was in the wrong from what I can see so far... so.. was it rape... damn if I know and that kind of pisses me off.

I lean toward yes and swing back...

I do know that I have talked to submissive men who want to be submissive, but have a fantasy of overpowering the dominant or having a switch off if they can work it or something that means, they might sometimes overpower if they can. Maybe she needed to say more than no.... but there are lots of reasons she might not have. So basically in a cloudy situation with not a lot to go on... one cannot decide and one has to get through, think lots, examine things and maybe rethink some things. And stay away from a guy that hasn't respected no or at least questioned whether she was serious or not if he were confused... and here I go on that swing again.

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 1:58:27 PM

subtlebutterfly

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I'm not thinking about her as a dominant or submissive, I'm thinking about her as a person.

She should've backed down..but she didn't. I'm not saying it was not a rape but I'm not saying it was a rape either..because honestly, it's impossible to tell.
She may feel used and taken advantage of and under certain circumstances violated, but the thing is that she did back down..and you just cannot put the whole blame on the do-er.
Therefore, because of how serious a rape/sexual assault charge is I would say it just doesn't qualify as a rape. While you cannot make the guy take the whole blame, it's not a rape..and in my opinion it's not possible in this case.

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 2:22:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SnowRanger

Hello A/all,

Frankly I am stumped by this one. I am a 'subbie' to the core; but, I do find the prospect of a Switch-Session to have an appeal. I imagine that such a scene would require a very careful set of ground rules before play started.

At the least, this is topping-from -the-bottom at the extreme.

Respectfully,
Mike
SnowRanger

This was never supposed to have been a switch session and both were clear on that going in. At least, from what I have been told. As switch myself, the idea of an agreed upon switch session or just having the right chemistry with someone to be able to do so naturally would be great. Unfortunately, that's not what this is as best I can tell.

lovingpet

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 2:24:11 PM

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I feel badly for her... this has to be messing with her head, and of course affecting how she looks at that guy!

Crappy experiences happen, we are all victims of our own bad judgement sometimes... at least there was no injury, and hopefully she can just get whatever good out of it and move on.

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 2:27:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

I would have to know more about her history and such before I could determine anything. On one hand I think one way and on the other I think differently. I know some who are stunned... say no but cannot fight for some reason. Then there are some who might be over the top on the emotions of what happened and they weren't really rape type emotions, but confusing and for lack of a way to sort it out, they feel more forced. It is simply too hard to say with the information given and so much unknown.

No means no... but how many in play in bdsm and d/s say no as part of the play? There are too many factors that would mean I could not determine what I am not sure she even can determine at this point.

I would venture to say that once more power/dominance was shown, even though she felt she should be the dominant... he took over and she may have gone to a more submissive place in her mind... not that she wanted to submit, but was not sure how to handle it. That is why I am saying she may have lost her barings and may have had some emotional stuff going on and he didn't understand because he just took in play. I am sure he would say that... but at the same time... no means no unless you have those dynamic's covered in discussion and he was in the wrong from what I can see so far... so.. was it rape... damn if I know and that kind of pisses me off.

I lean toward yes and swing back...

I do know that I have talked to submissive men who want to be submissive, but have a fantasy of overpowering the dominant or having a switch off if they can work it or something that means, they might sometimes overpower if they can. Maybe she needed to say more than no.... but there are lots of reasons she might not have. So basically in a cloudy situation with not a lot to go on... one cannot decide and one has to get through, think lots, examine things and maybe rethink some things. And stay away from a guy that hasn't respected no or at least questioned whether she was serious or not if he were confused... and here I go on that swing again.

Welcome to being inside my head! Scary place isn't it? LOL

I know a lot of women tend to shut down in the face of being assaulted or raped and I really can't say if that is the case here or not. I do know that she is not one to be given to excessive emotions. She is usually pretty objective about things, even when they concern her, but no one is perfect. She seems sincerely traumatized, but my sympathy button seems to be broken because I can't get my righteous indignation up about this. I seem to hold her accountable in this situation and for me, I'll admit it comes from the fact that she was supposedly the dominant party at the time. It is rare that I cannot sympathize with a "victim" so it makes me wonder if there is something missing from the equation that makes me pull back a bit.

lovingpet

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 2:30:20 PM

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There's just not enough detail here to say - "certain things", I dunno what that is. Is it legally rape - is that the question? If so, it's really hard to say based on what we know. If she feels strongly it was, then she should consult a lawyer.

Are you asking more like - "can she say she was raped"? Yeah, if she feels deeply violated, how she self-defines the situation is up to her.

Does it empower her to call it rape? Will defining it as such help hear learn more about herself and how to handle future situations? The way I see it, whether it was rape or not isn't relevant except legally. That she feels icky, violated, used - that is what's relevant, and now the most important thing is for her to take something of value from the situation.

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 2:31:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtlebutterfly

I'm not thinking about her as a dominant or submissive, I'm thinking about her as a person.

She should've backed down..but she didn't. I'm not saying it was not a rape but I'm not saying it was a rape either..because honestly, it's impossible to tell.
She may feel used and taken advantage of and under certain circumstances violated, but the thing is that she did back down..and you just cannot put the whole blame on the do-er.
Therefore, because of how serious a rape/sexual assault charge is I would say it just doesn't qualify as a rape. While you cannot make the guy take the whole blame, it's not a rape..and in my opinion it's not possible in this case.

I tend to agree, but my experience with rape victims is that many do back down for various reason, one being fear and another being confusion. I wouldn't advise taking this to court simply because there is not going to be a good outcome no matter how it is viewed. He may go to jail with the belief that he was only following her lead or that he was equally as confused as she was. He may not go to jail and there will be a lot of personal details about both exposed for no good reason. It is just too close a call for "justice" to really have any meaning as far as I'm concerned.

lovingpet

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 2:33:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I feel badly for her... this has to be messing with her head, and of course affecting how she looks at that guy!

Crappy experiences happen, we are all victims of our own bad judgement sometimes... at least there was no injury, and hopefully she can just get whatever good out of it and move on.

She ended things bluntly with him. I know it is upsetting to her and I know she has more than once questioned a lot of things, including her fitness as a dominant person, but I think it will subside in time and with some positive experiences with those she has good rapport with already. She will come through just fine I am sure of that. It will just take some time and a lot of self examination.

lovingpet

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 2:36:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissCake

There's just not enough detail here to say - "certain things", I dunno what that is. Is it legally rape - is that the question? If so, it's really hard to say based on what we know. If she feels strongly it was, then she should consult a lawyer.

Are you asking more like - "can she say she was raped"? Yeah, if she feels deeply violated, how she self-defines the situation is up to her.

Does it empower her to call it rape? Will defining it as such help hear learn more about herself and how to handle future situations? The way I see it, whether it was rape or not isn't relevant except legally. That she feels icky, violated, used - that is what's relevant, and now the most important thing is for her to take something of value from the situation.

I guess primarily I am looking at it from a legal standpoint, because of the questions surrounding control and consent that are in play due to the dominant/submissive dynamic that was supposed to be in place. Regardless of the legal standing, I think she has communicated clearly that she FEELS raped and has to process things from that position.

lovingpet

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RE: Raped Mistress? - 10/12/2009 2:36:59 PM

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Coming from experience, I would consider that incident rape. It is rape simply because she said no. Regardless of her reasoning for not struggling or refusing more, she said no and he persisted. That by definition is rape.

In the court system her persistent refusal by saying no would constitute the sexual activity as un wanted and therefore rape.

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