Elisabella
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama
Calling YOU "little girl" is a phrase that might connote YOUR inferiority--you may have missed the clue, but I'm not terribly impressed by your agenda to force female inferiority on your entire civilization via its public institutions, regardless of the age of the children affected.
And I'm not terribly impressed by your agenda to force a feminist utopia on our civilization via its public institutions, that doesn't mean I'm going to lob what I perceive as insults toward you.
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So to clarify? I don't believe all women and girls are inferior to me--just the ones like you, who not only choose submission for themselves, but believe it should be imposed on everyone--and that it's morally right to inflict adult submissive sex roles on little girls at the age of seven or eight.
Well really, by saying you have a problem with the fact that NFL cheerleading exists, you're trying to impose your views on everyone, and how is that any different?
If you find child cheerleading to be a sex role, you and I see the world very differently.
I also don't think it's right to 'inflict' any sort of leisure activity on children, from forcing them to take piano lessons to forcing them into cheerleading. But I also don't think it's right to prevent a child from doing cheerleading, dance, or gymnastics if they want to, from preventing them from having fun with their friends, just because you think it's unfeminist.
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As for the poke about my family members? Yikes. Very, very trashy manuver--low class and contemptible. But hey, what else would I expect from someone like you?
Someone like me, eh? Someone trashy, low class and contemptible - have I insulted you at all in this thread? Have I degraded you as a human being just because we have a different idea of what the world should be like?
Forgive me if I don't get offended, but I don't feel that someone who is unable to have a debate without throwing insults is a proper judge of what constitutes class.
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I have two daughters, since you brought up the subject, and I have managed to shelter both of them from being sexually exploited at a young age for the entertainment of a degenerate and hypocritical society. If you expect me to be guilty or ashamed on that score, you're going to have a loooooong damn wait.
Sexually exploited. Strong phrase. Using it to describe cheerleading kinda demeans all those girls in Asia, Africa, and Eastern Europe who are raped on a daily basis.
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Google Catullus and Martial. And check the history of Greek and Roman frescos. Every time you see a scene of men drinking, you are likely to see them accompanied by nude women--those women exist to be exploited visually and sexually at a whim. They are a combination of entertainment, window dressing and waitress.
Frescoes of naked women doesn't mean that women walked around naked in public. And those women were probably slaves - you can't talk about the exploitation of women by referencing slaves any more than you can say that since male slaves had to do heavy work, all men are being exploited.
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"Chastity", in Roman times and now, was a matter of social class. The only Roman morality you mention is the idealized morality of the senatorial class--specifically the moral rectitude which was always expected of them, but which almost no one, male or female, ever practiced, except possibly for the Catos.
I'd disagree that almost no one lived up to those standards, but really now are you trying to say that there should be no standards at all?
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The "class of prostitutes" you're referring to was basically everyone who was not a patrician, including slaves, freedwomen, and plebians on occasion--the plebians being most likely to have been given a choice in the matter.
The class of prostitutes I was referring to were the meretrices.
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And even the bodies of patrician women were considered property, owned by their fathers, brothers and husbands, and occasionally even by the state.
You neglect to mention that all of the children of the pater familias were his property. Sons and daughters. Any property acquired by an adult Roman man whose father was still alive belonged to the father's estate, legally.
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The behavior of Julia was "notorious" because Augustus was such a stickler for moral rectitude--the ultimate "stiff".
Fascinating how that coincides with the beginning of the pax romana.
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If his sister was not a virgin nun, it tended to undermine his authority to command others to be virtuous.
Octavia was married 3 or 4 times...he hardly expected her to be a virgin priestess of a religion that didn't exist yet. He expected her to be faithful within marriage and chaste (or at least, publicly appear chaste) outside of marriage. Is there any political family in existence that doesn't keep up appearances?
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As for Messalina? Messalina's reputation is blackened by so much political propaganda that it is impossible to separate fact from fiction--accusations of moral impropriety and sexual excess were political weapons in those days, because then as now 1) any political power or influence in a woman's hands was despised and distrusted 2) it was considered the duty of men to control women's sexuality, and if they could not it was taken as a sign of weakness and effiminacy in the man--even if he was an emperor.
So are you saying she didn't cheat on her husband and go off to marry her lover?
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At any rate--I think this thread has been derailed more than sufficiently. I will not post again. As always, being a feminist and talking about feminist issues just attracts a lot of non-topical hostility, and this is not my thread.
The only hostility in this thread has come from you and DemonKia, with your unprovoked insults. If you really don't plan on posting again, the hostility will surely dissipate.
< Message edited by Elisabella -- 10/17/2009 8:56:35 PM >
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