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RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/7/2006 6:49:37 PM

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From: Texas
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quote:

She does not bestow this right on him, her need to submit does and that fact may have a life of its own quite apart from her perceived wishes. She may have no wilful control over the power she gives him.

That's exactly what I've always meant by having ones power 'taken' from them rather than giving it to someone. I didn't give anything to anyone. No cute little presents wrapped in cute little bows. No exchanges for toasters or sales on Ebay. It wasn't a gift! Master wanted it, he took it and he keeps it. What I hear more than anything is.. 'you have the power to walk away,'.. failing to see that I do not have that power because he took it from me! Master has made it clear, in no uncertain terms that I'm here for the duration or for as long as he feels like keeping me.. and I believe him.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to cillydom)

RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/8/2006 2:17:49 PM

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seems I inadvertently broke a rule on posting , so here is the update that was removed

Ok, onto a pet peeve of mine, mentors. Establishing friendships with dominants is perfectly all right, it may even give a new submissive a window into the dominant mind. But be wary of giving him any power over you, I have this suspension that males that mentor online have their own agenda and may not be attuned to the best interests of the submissive. Having him read her email and pass judgement on whom she should and should not speak to may prevent her from actually finding someone. I talk to many submissives online but I do so as equals, I don’t demand any ritualistic behavior and speech. I find the female mind fascinating and the submissive mind even more so. I like it to shine forth unhindered, unencumbered and pristine. Submissives looking for a partner should stand on their own feet and make their own decisions. After all the submissive is the one that will have to live with her decisions.

This is a work in progress and changes are made from time to time for clarity and continuance but the basic ideas remain constant. So if it interests you come back to find out what has been added. Rereading from the beginning is recommended as changes are made to the body of the text also.

(in reply to cillydom)

RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/8/2006 5:57:38 PM

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quote:

But over time, would he prefer her to be secure with him? For example i know that as long as i am pleasing to him i will be his. Thus, i will always work to be pleasing and find new and creative ways to do so. However, if loss of the relationship were used to manipulate me, i would think that would only have fed my insecurity, and my focus would end up being on something fear driven than HIM-driven. Hence, my focus becomes on me rather than on him. Whereas if i am secure on the foundation he provides, then i am not distracted by needless worry. Would you agree? Then all barriers are removed and you have a slave with no hangups, ready to expand her own boundaries, however difficult, to please you and make you happy. You are her goal - not her security. You did say subtle, however, which leads me to believe you are not outwardly hanging demise over her head as a form of negative motivation. Negative motivation (a different subject) has its place, but i tend to think fear driven approaches can lead to dangerous ground.

Wow...How beautifully articulated. My very first Dominant used the fear tactic, and at the time, I *was* very insecure about losing him...perhaps too needy at the time, and very vulnerable. And boy did he use it. I cringe to this day when I admit that it worked. That was a bunch of years ago and I have since matured emotionally and become more secure with my own perceptions of what my submission is, and what a healthy relationship should be. So I never have to feel that way again. But, wow, you surely did explain this 'cause and affect' theory absolutely beautifully. I agree completely; fear of the Dominant ending the relationship really should NOT be used as a tool. It fosters and exacerbates an insecurity that is sometimes already present in the submissive, and I cant see how using this as a tool of manipulation would really help the relationship to evolve. It may get immediate results, but in the long term, it would be a recipe for disaster. And I would pity the woman that it *does* work on. I was once she. But not anymore. And I have no desire to dis Cilly, cuz I dig his writings, but I have to ask, what kind of man would use such a tactic? I do not think he would have much character as a man or a dom. However, I can see how Cilly would see this as a possible tool, without realizing the long term affect that it can have on a submissive's psyche. I do know first hand that it *can* and *does* work (with *some* anyway). So I must admit that he has a point, I just dont agree with using it. Thanks for reading. :)

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/8/2006 6:07:28 PM

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This has been a fascinating thread to read. Moving from the vanilla world to this one has had its share of surprises. Both worlds have their share of airheads, of course. But I am pleased to note that I have experienced a lot more contacts here who have the capacity to stimulate me intellectually which is very important to me. Many of the doms I have met (including the one I am currently involved with for "real time") have been very creative and thinking men. I suppose l expected to find more brutes than I have. This has also been true for many of my fellow submissives. It makes me wish I had found my way here years ago instead of only recently.

I hope the journal to which you refer is the one with your profile. I am headed there to hopefully read more in depth. Thanks!

cadence

(in reply to cillydom)

RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/8/2006 6:08:47 PM

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quote:

She may have no wilful control over the power she gives him.

everyone has willful control over their choices, no matter how strong their 'desires' may be. To think otherwise, is a dangerous place to be in.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/8/2006 6:34:36 PM

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quote:

I would also ask a dominant who has a slave that is micro-managed in such an extreme manner... where the hell do you find the time & energy to maintain that type of relationship. Honestly folks, you would have to be retired & independently wealthy in order to be so controlling. It takes me all damn day to make sure I keep up with my own responsibilities without having to pick out my girl's clothes, ok her makeup, make sure she does her job right. Remember to eat.. & oh yeah... that it is ok for her to go to the bathroom now. PALLLLEEEEESE!!!

BAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA...EXACTLY! Who do they think they're kidding anyway? lmaoo

PS: I pulled this from the wrong person's post. and I dont know how to change it or delete it. I just wanted to confirm that the above quotation that I responded to was from Cilly's writings, not the person that I responded from. Thanks.

< Message edited by girlToServeYou -- 3/8/2006 7:06:56 PM >

(in reply to MstrssPassion)

RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/8/2006 6:43:54 PM

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_____________________________

MstrssPassion

(in reply to girlToServeYou)

RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/8/2006 6:49:01 PM

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quote:

Now the biggy, “DOORMAT”. I’ve marveled at the debates over this one, invariably debated among submissive women themselves. After looking at line upon line upon line of submissive discussion, I’ve come up with a working definition for doormat submissive. Are you ready? To a submissive woman a doormat submissive is “ any submissive more submissive than I am”. It’s just that simple. It’s all a matter of depth of need. The more needful she is to submit, the more likely she will be thought a doormat by other submissives.

I think the term "doormat" can be applied to anyone in any type of relationship, or life in general who goes around letting people crap all over them, and has a basic lack of respect for oneself. Im not sure why this term is thrown around so much in this context, but as far as Im concerned you either have a doormat mentality or you do not; submissive or vanilla, man or woman. And as far as being labeled by "jealous submissives", again, you will find jealous women every where. And men as well. Have you any idea how many self-proclaimed dominants, tell us that so-and-so Dom isnt a "Real Dom", he's just a top or a kinkster or whatever. Again, these issues can all be paralleled with ALL types of people in all relationships. I just dont see why the great need to differentiate so much between "vanilla" and "Ds". We really arent any different fundamentally with regard to basic human nature, than those who *don't* practice Ds.

(in reply to cillydom)

RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/8/2006 6:51:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cillydom

however they seek it, it's still love to them

is it love?... or just self-abuse!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to cillydom)

RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/9/2006 2:04:58 PM

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People you meet at the pool.

Lets take a trip to the d/s pool and meet the folks enjoying themselves.

The first group we meet at pulling up are the righteous indignaters standing outside the fence shouting insults and warnings of eternal tooth decay and skin rot if just one drop of d/s pool water touches your skin.

Passing through the fence we thread ourselves through the lounge chairs occupied by the voyeurs and wankers who would never actually touch the water.

Getting closer to the pool we come upon the occasional fantasy players making their weekly visit to dip one toe into the waters.

Sitting around the pool edge splashing the water with their feet is the faint of heart, afraid to muss their hairdos.

Getting in the shallow end we pass the bedroom aficionados.

Halfway to the deep end are the are the vast majority, enjoying the depth of the water where they are.

At the far end in deep water up to their necks are the “truly committed” oblivious to anything around them.

(in reply to cillydom)

RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/10/2006 3:42:16 AM

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From: Kentucky
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Welcome Cadence;

Everyone begins somewhere!

I believe we are where we are in our lives for a reason. Enjoy!

(in reply to cillydom)

RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/10/2006 9:12:32 AM

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The myths and reality of “in your face” control. This is a hotly debated and misunderstood factor of some d/s relationships. The question being how can you do it and my question is how can I not. I’d take an interest her. Some people seem to have the quaint notion that if he’s not around he isn’t controlling her, nothing can be further from the truth. When a nilla couple come in at the end of the day usually he wants to flop down and watch tv, she wants to talk about their day. She wants him to show an interest in her and what she did, he couldn’t care less. He is not interested and the thought of exercising any amount of control is totally foreign to his psyche. A dominant would be highly interested in her, in her day and what she did. Perhaps he would tell her what she should have done differently, how she should have behaved differently so that in the future she would have this in mind under similar circumstances and behave accordingly. Control doesn’t have to be a physically present matter, but control could be that she has his desires in mind and behaves to fulfill them. To them this discussion of the day would be a daily ritual. And in a sense he is constantly in control as long as she is mindful of his desires. In your face isn’t actually in your face all the time. It’s more like in her mind most all the time. Maybe it’s some innocuous secret ritual she performs or an incantation she says before doing certain things that is used to always remind her of her state of being, her state as his submissive. It’s not a overly complicated thing nor does it have to be overly bearing and it could be something she thoroughly enjoys. Then there’s the extreme level of control that is often talked about but that is difficult indeed to practice all the time, to the point of being impractical. There is nothing mysterious and many couples may be practicing this level of control and never thought of it in this way.

Authors disclaimer this is a personal philosophy presented to provoke comment and discourse. It is not a how to manual or a “This is the only way it should be” essay. But I dare say many will see things that pertain to them and their partners.

This is a work in progress and changes are made from time to time for clarity and continuance but the basic ideas remain constant. So if it interests you come back to find out what has been added. Rereading from the beginning is recommended as changes are made to the body of the text also. It is also in my profile in its entirety. Or I will gladly email you a copy.

(in reply to cillydom)

RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/10/2006 11:03:36 AM

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quote:

The myths and reality of “in your face” control.

cilly,
It would help provide perspective if you could provide your real time experiences using the philosophy you espouse. How many submissives or slaves have you trained? What was their reaction to your training? Have you amended your position based on your experiences? How? Under what circumstances did those relationships terminate?

Your dissertations are interesting, but I think it would help to know how your experience led you to these beliefs. Your profile didn't provide any help. It did raise a different question. I've always been curious in the "Gorian" ways and hope to someday have the opportunity to meet and hang out with a Gorian couple and compare their way with how beth and I live. You note that you are not as "severe as gorian"; how is gorian more severe than you?

Good luck in your search.

(in reply to cillydom)

RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/10/2006 11:27:21 AM

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the reference was to ritualistic behaviour

i'm more relaxed and just naturaly me

i'v had 2 submissives in long term relationships each spaning years.

i'v never just played around so much perfering to be serviced by one woman in a complete relationship

i was part of the msbd scene for some years even serving on the board of coordinators of the balck rose in dc

and i observed other pairs in their relationships closly

like i said this is personal beliefs but much in common with others

and as far as training, i don't particulary care for the word, but thats a personal preference

what does a grown woman really need to be trained to do, i think of it as her experiencing me and learning what it takes to please me

being x military i guess i'm adverse to useing the training word, reminds me of when i had to do close order drill on artilery pieces

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/10/2006 11:31:55 AM

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one other thing both were completely from out side never even knowing d/s exhisted in the way we know it

(in reply to cillydom)

RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/10/2006 12:02:32 PM

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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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I finally found the time without interuptions to read the entirethread and particularly the dissertation, which I enjoyed. As a personal philosophy, I found it interesting, and I immagine that under differing circumstances I could happily debate it from both an entertainment and me being a nosey Grizzly. I have to say cd, I also enjoyed readig your profile and I can understand your comment about not being as severe as Goreans seem to be... All in all, thank you.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to cillydom)

RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/12/2006 1:04:37 PM

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The three people involved in the d/s relationship. In a relationship of a dominant and submissive there is a third person always present. The dominant is most always the same as his dominance is internal to him, and his demeanor may not show what he is thinking, even when he is thinking about his submissive. The submissive on the other hand has two personas that she brings to the relationship, making 3 individuals in the relationship. The first is the thinking functioning woman, the woman that the world sees everyday, the woman that may have a prestigious position in the everyday work world. She may be highly educated, be very intelligent and have myriad interests, but her submissive persona will always drive her back to her dominant to serve his pleasure where she will have to subdue the thinking functioning woman. In effect attempting to turn her off, because the thinking woman may try to interfere with her true needful destiny. Often the thinking woman rebels and the submissive may need the help of her dominant in conquering the thinking woman. In effect there two people trying to liberate the submissive from within the dominant and the submissive persona. This is a struggle faced by many submissives everyday and won everyday. It’s a struggle the thoughtful dominant realizes has to be faced, and gladly faces. For only by overcoming the thinking woman can the dominant and the submissive realize her true potential.

Authors disclaimer this is a personal philosophy presented to provoke comment and discourse. It is not a how to manual or a “This is the only way it should be” essay. But I dare say many will see things that pertain to them and their partners.

This is a work in progress and changes are made from time to time for clarity and continuance but the basic ideas remain constant. So if it interests you come back to find out what has been added. Rereading from the beginning is recommended as changes are made to the body of the text also. It is also in my profile in its entirety. Or I will gladly email you a copy.

(in reply to cillydom)

RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/12/2006 6:25:38 PM

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Letting go. A time comes when the submissive woman faces the question of how far do I go. It can be an agonizing question and the answer is critical to her future in submission. Does she set limits and forever be in contention with dominants, what if the dominant doesn’t accept her limits, what will become of the relationship, is a relationship possible? If the dominant accedes to her limits what will her attitude be toward him? Will she think that she has the power of refusal and can exercise it at will? If she thinks these things, what’s she to think of someone that calls himself dominant? If this were to stand then their commitment to d/s was not total nor any where near it to begin with. If her submissive need is great enough in time she will come to resent him for his acceding to her limits, for in the depth of her soul this is not what she wanted, this was what the thinking woman wanted, so she, the thinking woman can say, I’m not really like that, I just like to play kinky games. This is where the dominant must be firm before he allows the relationship to develop so far that they both wind up getting hurt. Her for not really respecting him as a true dominant and his resentment for not getting from her those things he may have really wanted. The dominant should have a clear idea of what he wants out of a relationship and if any particular submissive is suitable for him. I don’t think most submissives are able to fully appreciate their suitability for a particular dominant, as her need may cloud her vision. I know im going to get a lot of flack for this but I’ve observed it may times and the wreckage of failed relationships when tension became so great that it could no longer be denied. The dominant should make it perfectly clear early on in the courtship process what covenant he is willing to offer her, such as health and safety, friends and family and career. After this he may say all else is mine. If this is done from the very beginning and the covenant comes from him first then she will not see this as a weakness but rather love and caring as he gave her these of his own free will, she did not have to demand them. She really doesn’t want to be in a position where she is able to make demands of any kind. She needs her dominant to explain and encourage her to just let go. What is to be done when after the relationship has become established and there is something she just cant perform as directed. It such a situation is allowed to stand and is glossed over her respect for him will begin to erode and the relationship is doomed. One possibility is to make the consequences so severe that she will not think that she got away with anything and in the future will think long and hard before refusing service to him again. This consequence will have to be up to the dominant and applied with the full knowledge he has of her needs. There is no universal consequence that can be applied. But the dominant better have a very good upstanding of her.

Authors disclaimer this is a personal philosophy presented to provoke comment and discourse. It is not a how to manual or a “This is the only way it should be” essay. But I dare say many will see things that pertain to them and their partners.

This is a work in progress and changes are made from time to time for clarity and continuance but the basic ideas remain constant. So if it interests you come back to find out what has been added. Rereading from the beginning is recommended as changes are made to the body of the text also. It is also in my profile in its entirety. Or I will gladly email you a copy.

(in reply to cillydom)

RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/12/2006 7:10:18 PM

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Guess I was too lazy to read the whole post, but I do agree on the limit issue. My own limits, albeit flexible at first, have been expanded a whole lot for the last five months. It depended on the right person, who I surrended the limit-control. Today I trust that same person to explore my limits and maybe stretch them.

_____________________________

Smack me around and call me Suzy...

(in reply to cillydom)

RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/13/2006 7:09:58 AM

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A conspiracy of two. To elaborate on the three person relationship. There is a more natural alliance between the dominant than there is between him and thinking woman. As the thinking woman may put up obstacles to submission, the dominant and the submissive woman may have to conspire against thinking woman. The dominant should be completely honest with the submissive woman about what is goals are, with honesty the submissive woman will gleefully join his conspiracy. After all it’s hers submission that is being held in check by thinking woman. The submissive woman must be taught and enabled on how to rise up and take control when the thinking woman has negative thoughts about what she’s doing and the relationship with the dom. She must be empowered to replace thinking woman’s negative thoughts with warm fuzzy erotic feelings that more realistically reflect her submission.

Submissive in a cage parable. The submissive woman is in a cage and she has the key in her hand that would open the door allowing her to walk to freedom but that is impossible for her to do. Intellectually she may know what the key is, she may know how to insert the key into the lock, turn the key and push open the door but she can’t. Even if flood waters came she could not open the door and she would perish. But when the proper dominant comes along and asks her for the key, she will gladly hand it to him and let him lead her away from what had been her real slavery.

(in reply to cillydom)

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