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RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/13/2006 11:09:57 AM   
cillydom


Posts: 332
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		How a dominant can come to know his submissive. For the relationship to work and last, the dominant must come to know and understand his submissive like no other. In deeply committed d/s relationships, one in which the dominant and submissive are deeply committed to their respective roles, one is more a mirror image of the other than in most any other type of relationship. The dominant first analyzes his dominant desires and understands them. For every desire he has the submissive has the apposite desire or close to it. For most every way he wants to use her, she wants to be used. After he understands his desires he can create a mental clone of the submissive and perform thought experiments on her prior to expecting her to actually obey. In the start of the relationship he starts leading her gently in the direction he wants her to travel, observing how she behaved the same or differently than his mental clone of her. As he gains experience with her he fine tunes his mental clone of her, bringing her clone ever closer to her reality. Then in his mind he can work out every nuance of her possible reaction to whatever he desires of her. After some time he can actually have her inside him, in a way she has become a part of what he is. As part of this modeling of her she has to help him. He has to make her feel secure enough that she will open her thoughts to him, holding absolutely nothing back. For this to happen he has to be constant in his demeanor, never belittling or criticizing her thoughts. She must never feel that he disapproves of her thoughts. He must during this time of her sharing put his own feelings aside keeping absolute control of himself. One mistake on his part could do damage to her trust that may take much time to repair. This is not something easily done, it takes a strong desire of the dominant to understand his submissive. In the early days before I came to fully understand my desires and to come to know what I am, I had a seven year vanilla relationship with a woman who I encouraged to share her thoughts with me, once she told me “this is great, I can tell you things I cant tell my closest friend”, needless to say that made this one feel great. If that level of trust can be established with a vanilla woman how much more is possible with a submissive woman?



Authors disclaimer this is a personal philosophy presented to provoke comment and discourse. It is not a how to manual or a “This is the only way it should be” essay. But I dare say many will see things that pertain to them and their partners.

This is a work in progress and changes are made from time to time for clarity and continuance but the basic ideas remain constant. So if it interests you come back to find out what has been added. Rereading from the beginning is recommended as changes are made to the body of the text also. It is also in my profile in its entirety. Or I will gladly email you a copy.

(in reply to cillydom)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/13/2006 7:22:27 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

I enjoyed the post... aside from the fact that it was so gender specific in your writing.

Yet as I was reading it I heard a song playing in my head... Rolling Stones: You can't always get what you want... but if you try sometime, you just might find, you get what you need.

So I did a little research for feed back on this very sentiment & found a cool read.

Excerpt from this: let go of expectations for emotional fulfillment. Personal relationships are always a challenge and I have consistently found that when I stop wanting other people, friends, family members, or colleagues, to be who I want them to be for me, and accept them for who they are, things just go more easily, and relationships are clearer and richer.

For most of us, emotional needs are laid down early in life. They are solidified reactions to the disappointments encountered in growing up. And as adults, we spend our lives trying to get what we never got as children. But the past is past. You cannot go back. When you accept the resonance of these disappointments moment by moment and don't try to avoid them, you discover a freedom to enjoy love, affection, and companionship, even though it doesn't correspond to precisely what you (mistakenly) feel you need.

Pick something you want, a physical object, a relationship, or some form of recognition. Let the feeling of desire arise. Experience how it arises in your body; feel all the emotions it triggers; and let all the stories it tells just be there. Don't be distracted. Don't try to control the experience. Don't work at anything. If you discover another level of yearning, move into that. When you move into the desire completely, a shift takes place and you know it as just an arising in experience. Now look at the object of your desire again. What has changed?

By going into the experience of desire itself, rather than acting on it, you let go of the belief that you are incomplete. The energy of desire ceases to dictate behavior and, instead, fuels presence: being completely in the experience of what is, internally and externally.

The chains of desire pull us into a life of frustration and suffering while renunciation cuts those chains. Renunciation, though often understood to mean "giving up" is, more accurately, the willingness to experience things as they are, not as we want them to be. Here you discover true freedom -- the deep quiet joy that has always been present in you.

(the full article can be found here: http://unfetteredmind.com/articles/want.php )

So often people are guilty of just this & find themselves in an endless cycle of disappointment & frustration. They ponder endlessly... I'm not asking for much, I just want to have someone who is this or that... really that isn't so much to ask for, is it? Expectations are immediately placing a brick wall up that you are unable to see, yet you will in the end find yourself standing there in the middle of the road, unable to move forward... blocked by that invisible barrier of expectations.

We are often guilty of building this laundry list of wants, needs & must haves & lose sight of what it is that we are truly in need of. If you can't find contentment within yourself... no thing or no person is going to miraculously bring into you that sense of contentment.

Maybe I am way out in left field with this reply... but that is the beauty of the boards, you never know what you're gonna get.


Wonderful post. And if you are in left field, that's ok lol, it's still the center of somewhere, right?

Level

"Normally, we do not so much look at things as overlook them" -------Alan Watts

(in reply to MstrssPassion)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/14/2006 2:43:52 AM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		I dont know whether its cuz Ive had a very long day, usually I have so much to say but reading your last three posts cillydom, I just found myself understanding what you were saying and that left me with nothing to say *grin*. I am going to reread them in the morning. I really enjoy your style of writing.

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/14/2006 4:05:08 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

However, if loss of the relationship were used to manipulate me, i would think that would only have fed my insecurity, and my focus would end up being on something fear driven than HIM-driven. Hence, my focus becomes on me rather than on him. Whereas if i am secure on the foundation he provides, then i am not distracted by needless worry. Would you agree? Then all barriers are removed and you have a slave with no hangups, ready to expand her own boundaries, however difficult, to please you and make you happy. You are her goal - not her security. You did say subtle, however, which leads me to believe you are not outwardly hanging demise over her head as a form of negative motivation. Negative motivation (a different subject) has its place, but i tend to think fear driven approaches can lead to dangerous ground.


Wonderfully said my friend *smiles*

Level

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/14/2006 4:10:12 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

It means my Master is of the same opinion, and i agree with it. i need him to use me as he does. If he didn't, i would not be living to my full potential and we would both be missing something special.


I haven't messed with you for a long time, so I'm due. ::giggles::

quote:

i need him to use me as he does.


I really relate to this and one of the hardest issues for me has been to overcome that 'need', realise it's a 'want' and work passed it with the help of Himself. What I mean by that is when he does 'not' use me as I 'want' him to, but rather does for himself, gets things for himself, serves himself ... whatever it may be. By not being of use as 'I' wish, but rather as 'he' wishes has been a much harder struggle, and takes a greater degree of .. submission from me than the other. Learning not to feel rejected or neglected by his choices to exercise power at his discretion rather than by what I believe that should be..

same thing for you.. or different?

I'm curious because the dynamic which we ::you and I:: both share with our Masters is very different in that you don't get as many opportunities, perhaps, as I do in living with Himself, but at the same time, perhaps do get 'used' by your Master when the opportunities arise. ::is this making any sense?:: In other words, if you have only an hour a day to spend with your slave, do you take full advantage of that.. as opposed to having 24 hours a day with that slave, where you do tend to want to do things more for yourself, more often. If and when the time comes where you move in together, how will you feel if your Master does some of those little things for himself instead of directing you to do them?

Clear as mud? ::chuckles:: Get some coffee and if I haven't explained myself very well, I'll blame it on the lateness of the hour and try again.

Celeste




Well said, Celeste, as usual.........and you bring up some questions I don't normally see in these discussions...him "doing for himself" and how that may affect the slave/submissive.

Level

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/14/2006 5:07:58 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		Limits, especially hard limits, are there for a reason. As a person who is very self-aware, I do not accept that any dominant knows what is 'best' for me. I disagree with your contention that it is only the dominant's limits that 'count'. If an activity causes me great emotional distress, then I have the right to say NO!
What could be more important than the fact I pleased my dominant? The fact that I pleased him while remaining emotionally and physically unharmed!
I am, at the end of the day, the only person who is responsible for my own actions and safety. That has nothing to do with the validity of my submissiveness to my dominant.
I am submissive because it fulfills me; if I 'put all my desires aside' as you suggest, then I wouldn't be submissive.
D/s is not a one way street, the dominant is not the only one who matters. As DG is fond of saying, "The best D/s (or any) relationship is when both parties feel they are getting the better part of the bargain."

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to MstrssPassion)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/14/2006 7:40:38 AM   
cillydom


Posts: 332
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Dominant insecurities. Before taking control of a submissive the dominant should have thought long and hard about his own insecurities and how they may affect the relationship. Everyone has insecurities but it is imperative that a dominant have his in control as there is no one in the relationship but himself that can help him. The submissive cant, she may have her own insecurities that she is looking to him to help her with. So he is on his own, I know some submissives will say they are willing to help him but I don’t believe that for a moment. They may be willing but that’s the last thing they need, to think for a moment that they have an insecure dominant. The dominant must realize, really realize that what ever desire he has his submissive fulfill that he is equally involved. It’s as though both were doing it. Before he has her fulfill a desire he has to be sure how he will feel about her afterward and not get in over his head. The submissive wants to feel his feelings for her wont change no matter what she does for him that he will be her rock, grounding her in security. If he cant do this then the relationship is doomed.



Authors disclaimer this is a personal philosophy presented to provoke comment and discourse. It is not a how to manual or a “This is the only way it should be” essay. But I dare say many will see things that pertain to them and their partners.

This is a work in progress and changes are made from time to time for clarity and continuance but the basic ideas remain constant. So if it interests you come back to find out what has been added. Rereading from the beginning is recommended as changes are made to the body of the text also. It is also in my profile in its entirety. Or I will gladly email you a copy.

(in reply to cillydom)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/14/2006 10:32:45 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cillydom
I know some submissives will say they are willing to help him but I don’t believe that for a moment. They may be willing but that’s the last thing they need, to think for a moment that they have an insecure dominant. The dominant must realize, really realize that what ever desire he has his submissive fulfill that he is equally involved. It’s as though both were doing it. Before he has her fulfill a desire he has to be sure how he will feel about her afterward and not get in over his head. The submissive wants to feel his feelings for her wont change no matter what she does for him that he will be her rock, grounding her in security. If he cant do this then the relationship is doomed.

Your overgeneralizations are reaching a boiling over point.

Plenty of M/s relationships can and do thrive even through periods where the master really IS insecure and needing to work through something, even when she submissive reall DOES step in and help the master get through it.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to cillydom)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/14/2006 10:45:04 AM   
cillydom


Posts: 332
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		I admit mileage may vary but there are many to which this applies.

I’ve already stated that what I’m writing wont apply tp 100% to 100% of the people in d/s..

And generalization is the best you can attain when writing about people.

My advise is take what fits and ignore the rest.

But I appreciate your comments nonetheless.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/14/2006 12:21:19 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cillydom

I admit mileage may vary but there are many to which this applies.

I’ve already stated that what I’m writing wont apply tp 100% to 100% of the people in d/s..

And generalization is the best you can attain when writing about people.

My advise is take what fits and ignore the rest.

But I appreciate your comments nonetheless.



maybe you should worry about writing about what works for just you.... for frankly, you really not an expert on anything but that..... no different than anyone else

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to cillydom)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/15/2006 1:25:48 AM   
cillydom


Posts: 332
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Are we having fun yet? This is for maybe the one in ten who feel compulsive about their d/s sexuality, who feel out of place among the general bdsm crowd. For most having kinky sex or engaging in play parties is a fun enjoyable thing to do and they do it for the fun and the sex. For them their activities revolve around the scene. They may have large toy collections and enjoy their mastery at using them. They frequently attend demos to gain ever more mastery and because it’s a fun social thing to do. I’m not knocking this, to each their own, I’ve been to them and somewhat enjoyed the experience though not as much as the rest of the attendees. No, I’m speaking about a deeper need. There are those among us that don’t engage in unusual sexual practices for the fun and enjoyment, though it is, it’s more that we need to, it’s part of our very core. It’s as basic as breathing to us, so when’s the next breathing party? As a dominant I do things with my submissive because they need to be done, she needs them done to her, she may not like it, may not want it but she needs them done to her as much as she needs to breath. This is an alien concept unless you feel that need. For this submissive the need to be pushed is a part of her existence, it expresses her sexuality in a way that no other can. Her dominant pushing her gives her a feeling of being needed and loved for to her why else would he push her. Her limits are not a line drawn in the sand but rather like the water lapping at the shore ever fluid ever changing, ever exposing new possibilities. She needs a dominant that understands her well enough to know where , when and how much she needs pushing as probably she doesn’t know herself. She is totally reliant on him for his guidance and firmness. Through close and careful observation of her reactions and not what she says, does he know what she needs. I know this flies in the face of conventional wisdom that she knows herself best, but she doesn’t, she needs the close guidance of a watchful dominant. Only under these circumstances can she realize the fullness of her femininity. As a submissive she needs to be made to grow into all her possibilities. Now let the flaming begin.



Authors disclaimer this is a personal philosophy presented to provoke comment and discourse. It is not a how to manual or a “This is the only way it should be” essay. But I dare say many will see things that pertain to them and their partners.

This is a work in progress and changes are made from time to time for clarity and continuance but the basic ideas remain constant. So if it interests you come back to find out what has been added. Rereading from the beginning is recommended as changes are made to the body of the text also. It is also in my profile in its entirety. Or I will gladly email you a copy.

(in reply to cillydom)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/15/2006 2:08:03 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		Just had to check and gosh I was right.

5' 9"! It is always the short little runts who are in love with their own voice and never able to actualy make a consise point.

'SOME' of what you say is fine, some I disagree with, but almost ALL of what you've said could be said with at least 90% less verbage!

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to cillydom)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/15/2006 2:08:26 AM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		You dont think most people involved in bdsm feel an inner drive cillydom? I guess I can hear what your saying, some people are into it for the fun and games...but...generally..as far as people getting into bdsm relationships..even if they attend parties or whatever...wouldnt they have an inner drive to?
Isnt it just about peoples choices...and about some people(couples) enjoying a more active social life and others dont? To me that doesnt mean one has more drive than the other, or more desire or need..its just that they live their lives differently?

(in reply to cillydom)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/15/2006 5:11:12 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		I look forward to the day I see an article entitled, "DOM/MES, You too Should learn to do things You loathe!"

cillydom says, "As a dominant I do things with my submissive because they need to be done, she needs them done to her, she may not like it, may not want it but she needs them done to her as much as she needs to breathe."

I contend that the activities in question have nothing to do with helping the submissive get what she/he needs, but is all about the dominant getting what he/she WANTS. A dominant can't have it all, and there are no super-subs!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to cillydom)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/15/2006 7:25:16 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I contend that the activities in question have nothing to do with helping the submissive get what she/he needs, but is all about the dominant getting what he/she WANTS. A dominant can't have it all, and there are no super-subs!


The two can go hand in hand. i have often had to face that which i did not want, only to end up stronger and more devoted in the end. In the case of my Master & i, it is about the big picture.

Um, short little runts? How unfortunate that an exchange, no matter how disagreed with, turns into personal insults.

His "overgeneraliztion" actually struck a precise recollection with me, of when i had the same concern and asked my Master about it. i was very worried, if i do such n such, even if HE required it, would he look at me differently later?? Thank God he had already done the necessary mental work to know how he would feel (as well as he could) AFTER he put me through the ordeal he did.

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/15/2006 4:38:58 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		The two can possibly go hand in hand, but certainly not in every situation. I'm not saying everything I do has to be easy, I enjoy a challenge, facing some of my fears, and expanding some of my boundaries.
But there are things that are so emotionally devasting that to force me to do them because a dominant has decided it would be 'best' for me and 'what I need' is an arrogance that I do not believe belongs in any D/s relationship.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/15/2006 5:15:54 PM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

But there are things that are so emotionally devastating that to force me to do them because a dominant has decided it would be 'best' for me and 'what I need' is an arrogance that I do not believe belongs in any D/s relationship.


Yet sometimes it works out that the extra push given by the dominant offers the submissive an ability to overcome something that has held them back. A release that they would have never obtained without emotional pain or even physical pain. The dominant must be completely prepared to pick up the pieces afterward & also suffer any repercussions thereof. I would not advise people to engage in this type of exchange with anyone that they do not have an extremely trusting relationship with. A deep bonding trust must be in place.

(a quick note to catize:) You can call it arrogance if you wish, it is your right to think this but it is only your perspective. Just don't be so arrogant in your thinking to not accept that many are or have been completely ok with offering their dominant this measure of controlling guidance in their lives.

I have never pushed anyone in an extreme manner & by that I mean to the point of being broken & racked with tears & take days to recover... but I have pushed in some very drastic ways that completely tilted their emotions. Though they were extremely stressed leading up to, during & immediately after... they have thanked me countless times for my forcing them to reconcile with (fill in the blank)... so that they were no longer burdened by this matter again.

_____________________________

MstrssPassion


(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/15/2006 6:48:40 PM   
cillydom


Posts: 332
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Authors disclaimer this is a personal philosophy presented to provoke comment and discourse. It is not a how to manual or a “This is the only way it should be” essay. But I dare say many will see things that pertain to them and their partners.

is at the bottom of every post, and there are those of us that are that extreme in our d/s, and for us it works

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/15/2006 7:29:53 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		Dominance should never be confused with therapy. It is the submissive's right to decide if they are willing to face the pain of healing, and I believe that if healing is called for and desired, it belongs within the realm of professional counseling. I would not choose to put my Dominant in that position, nor does he wish to open that emotional can of worms.
My hard limits are not arbitrary lines drawn in the sand; they are there for very valid reasons. As a self-aware adult, I know what is 'too far'.
My objection here is to the assumption that a submissive "probably doesn't know herself what she needs"; a statement that infantalizes the submissive as if we were all imbecilic children.
I would hope that those who 'offer this measure of controlling guidance' do so only after careful deliberation and with an awareness of the potential ramifications to their psyche.



_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to MstrssPassion)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/15/2006 7:41:30 PM   
cillydom


Posts: 332
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		What if that is what the subbie really wants, shouldn’t she be entitled to it?

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 100
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