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RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/15/2006 8:01:59 PM   
Takethiswaltz


Posts: 199
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

Limits, especially hard limits, are there for a reason. As a person who is very self-aware, I do not accept that any dominant knows what is 'best' for me. I disagree with your contention that it is only the dominant's limits that 'count'. If an activity causes me great emotional distress, then I have the right to say NO!
What could be more important than the fact I pleased my dominant? The fact that I pleased him while remaining emotionally and physically unharmed!
I am, at the end of the day, the only person who is responsible for my own actions and safety. That has nothing to do with the validity of my submissiveness to my dominant.
I am submissive because it fulfills me; if I 'put all my desires aside' as you suggest, then I wouldn't be submissive.
D/s is not a one way street, the dominant is not the only one who matters. As DG is fond of saying, "The best D/s (or any) relationship is when both parties feel they are getting the better part of the bargain."


Wonderfully put. Adds a nice touch of realism to some of the nonsense that has been posted of late.

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/15/2006 8:05:11 PM   
Takethiswaltz


Posts: 199
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse


quote:

'SOME' of what you say is fine, some I disagree with, but almost ALL of what you've said could be said with at least 90% less verbage!


More realism. Love it.

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/15/2006 9:37:56 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cillydom

What if that is what the subbie really wants, shouldn’t she be entitled to it?


Yet previously you suggest that a submissive should not want anything except to please her Dom/Master whether or not it pleases her. You suggest that it doesn't matter whether the submissive likes it or believes she needs it, you do it anyway because you think that you know best and she couldn't possibly know herself better than you do. So, which is it?

I accept that you are under the impression this is working for you and your sub.



_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to cillydom)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/15/2006 9:53:20 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Takethiswaltz


Wonderfully put. Adds a nice touch of realism to some of the nonsense that has been posted of late.



Thanks! My idea of BDSM is that it should be grounded in reality, not fantasy!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to Takethiswaltz)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/15/2006 9:59:23 PM   
cillydom


Posts: 332
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		You know, if you look at some of the posts from other subs here that agree with me completely and encourage me to keep writing and the emails I get maybe you’d think differently, or are they wrong?

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/15/2006 11:05:19 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

Yet previously you suggest that a submissive should not want anything except to please her Dom/Master whether or not it pleases her. You suggest that it doesn't matter whether the submissive likes it or believes she needs it, you do it anyway because you think that you know best and she couldn't possibly know herself better than you do. So, which is it?


Speaking as a slave, it is both. i want more than anything to always please my Master, and by doing so, that means facing what he feels i should face. Pleasing him IS what pleases me. He does know best. That is why i am in his hands. So if he wants me to face something i am terrified of, i will face it. And 100% of the time, i come out stronger and better in the end, and closer to him as a result.

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/15/2006 11:38:32 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cillydom

You know, if you look at some of the posts from other subs here that agree with me completely and encourage me to keep writing and the emails I get maybe you’d think differently, or are they wrong?



You titled the original post One Dominant's controvesiral thoughts on D/s
In a later post you ended it with 'Let the flames begin.'
If you are going to invite controversy, then you should be prepared to support your position. Debate is not defined by how many people agree with you; rather, it is the ability to defend your point of view rationally and logically.
Your defense as I see it, is a whine and an attempt to pit sub against sub. Just because some submissive's agree with you does not mean that I have to as well. There is no right or wrong here, just different points of view.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to cillydom)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/15/2006 11:44:33 PM   
cillydom


Posts: 332
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		exactly , what i've been saying all along, mileage may vary.

it's just that im in a rather extreme falvor od d/s and to be told i'm wrong when most don't seem to have read what i wrote seems , well unseemly.

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/16/2006 12:08:32 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

Yet previously you suggest that a submissive should not want anything except to please her Dom/Master whether or not it pleases her. You suggest that it doesn't matter whether the submissive likes it or believes she needs it, you do it anyway because you think that you know best and she couldn't possibly know herself better than you do. So, which is it?


Speaking as a slave, it is both. i want more than anything to always please my Master, and by doing so, that means facing what he feels i should face. Pleasing him IS what pleases me. He does know best. That is why i am in his hands. So if he wants me to face something i am terrified of, i will face it. And 100% of the time, i come out stronger and better in the end, and closer to him as a result.


I have no disagreement with boundaries pushed, nor do I object to broadening my submissive horizons with new experience. In fact, when DG ups the ante, makes things tougher, I feel pride in my ability to meet the challenge.
Whether dominant or submissive, we all have limits. You may believe your master knows best, so be it. And I do truly hope that it all continues to make you stronger 100% of the time.
In my case, nobody knows me better than I know myself. DG understands that full well and respects me enough to respect my hard limits.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/16/2006 12:09:50 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

Her dominant pushing her gives her a feeling of being needed and loved for to her why else would he push her. Her limits are not a line drawn in the sand but rather like the water lapping at the shore ever fluid ever changing, ever exposing new possibilities. She needs a dominant that understands her well enough to know where , when and how much she needs pushing as probably she doesn’t know herself.


I think the main problem with this is it doesn't address the flip side of a submissive who has fewer 'limits' than the dominant. The limits which Himself has are inviolate, not to be pushed or crossed in anyway, by me or anyone else. Some of those things which he will never do for any reason, I would do at the drop of a hat. How does a dominant go about pushing limits if there are no appreciable limits to be pushed because of his own intrinsic beliefs? There is nothing that Himself desires that I am not more than willing to provide in my service to him. If feeling needed and loved is garned by pushing limits, then do you believe someone without those limits will feel neither needed nor loved? If a dominant has X number of limits and a submissive has X-2 number of limits, where does pushing limits come in?

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to cillydom)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/16/2006 12:19:48 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cillydom

exactly , what i've been saying all along, mileage may vary.

it's just that im in a rather extreme falvor od d/s and to be told i'm wrong when most don't seem to have read what i wrote seems , well unseemly.


Where did I say the words 'you are wrong'????
Are you suggesting that I did not read your posts? What do you base that assumption on?
Please clarify, is it unseemly to disagree with you in general or unseemly for a submissive to disagree with you? OH NO, not the unseemly label again!
Do I draw a conclusion based on your latest post that the only way you feel validated is that every submissive must agree with your 'flavor' of D/s?




_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to cillydom)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/16/2006 12:24:11 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

I know this flies in the face of conventional wisdom that she knows herself best, but she doesn’t, she needs the close guidance of a watchful dominant.


I have to say one more thing about this, and I cut this out separately because it's been eating at me since I first read it. First, a question - are these posts meant to speak to submissives who are fairly new in D/s? As someone who has been on this path for 24 years, there is simply no one, Master included, who knows me as well as I know myself. I've been with 'me' for 46 years, active in the search of self via BDSM for 24 of those 46 years and I met Master almost 10 years ago. I will grant he knows me very, very well.. but better than I know myself? I've spent 24 hours a day 7 days a week with 'me'.. Himself does have a job, his own life and interests that are beyond the scope of BDSM and D/s and I am not the be-all end-all of his existence. Self-discovery at this point in my life comes in spurts which are few and far between and are appreciated to the nth degree when I stumble across something new of myself. On the other hand, Himself is amazed at how much he discovers of me, almost daily. The journey will never be complete for either one of us, but my own path is much further along when it comes to 'me' than his own is.. as his knowledge of 'him' is much further along than my knowledge of him.

Celeste

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 3/16/2006 12:25:09 AM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to cillydom)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/16/2006 12:26:12 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

I think the main problem with this is it doesn't address the flip side of a submissive who has fewer 'limits' than the dominant. The limits which Himself has are inviolate, not to be pushed or crossed in anyway, by me or anyone else. Some of those things which he will never do for any reason, I would do at the drop of a hat. How does a dominant go about pushing limits if there are no appreciable limits to be pushed because of his own intrinsic beliefs? There is nothing that Himself desires that I am not more than willing to provide in my service to him. If feeling needed and loved is garned by pushing limits, then do you believe someone without those limits will feel neither needed nor loved? If a dominant has X number of limits and a submissive has X-2 number of limits, where does pushing limits come in?

Celeste


YES!
I frequently ask the question, if a slave has less limits than the master, does that make him/her a 'no limits' slave or just lucky?


_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/16/2006 12:31:04 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:


YES!
I frequently ask the question, if a slave has less limits than the master, does that make him/her a 'no limits' slave or just lucky?



There's a difference between 'no-limits' and limits with 'no' meaning. Given those two choices, I'd put my money on 'lucky'. ;) Or maybe on 'smart'.. as in being smart enough to have a Master who has the same or more limits than the slave.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/16/2006 6:13:06 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cillydom

exactly , what i've been saying all along, mileage may vary.

it's just that im in a rather extreme falvor od d/s and to be told i'm wrong when most don't seem to have read what i wrote seems , well unseemly.


As am, up to now, neutral observer here, I feel I should comment that the people who are most active in finding flaws in your monographs also seem to be the ones who have read them with the most care.

That said, I have to wonder at the genesis of this blanket dismissal of the point they have brought up.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to cillydom)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/16/2006 6:50:34 AM   
cillydom


Posts: 332
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		There are a subset of submissives that want to give themselves so completely that they give themselves almost as clean sheets to be written on anew by the dominant. They want to commit themselves so completely they loose the more normal sense of self preservation and the dominant can hurt them or he can make life for them heaven on earth and they wouldn’t utter a sound either way. With them the dominant has to use his own better judgement. I know this sounds preposterous but my first submissive was exactly like that, to bad I was newly awakened and didn’t know how to deal with her and we drifted apart. I am speaking from experience having lived and seen others in similar circumstances. And this has nothing to do with experience or lack of by the submissive as they will behave this way anew with a new dominant.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/16/2006 6:57:31 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cillydom
I know this sounds preposterous but my first submissive was exactly like that, to bad I was newly awakened and didn’t know how to deal with her and we drifted apart. I am speaking from experience having lived and seen others in similar circumstances. And this has nothing to do with experience or lack of by the submissive as they will behave this way anew with a new dominant.

For me it depended on the situation. I have gotten into certain headspaces and into certain relationships in which I literally had no sense of self, didn't care about self-preservation and simply would have gone as far down the rabbit hole as they wanted me to go.

Now, since I've never been with an owner who wanted to take me to a bad place or keep me in that headspace for extended periods, I don't really know how deep that would go.

But I have to say, even in those blank spaces, I think if they had gone to do something to my family, I'd have snapped out of it. My sense of preservation for them is a lot stronger than my sense of preservation for myself.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to cillydom)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/16/2006 12:01:44 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

There are a subset of submissives that want to give themselves so completely that they give themselves almost as clean sheets to be written on anew by the dominant. They want to commit themselves so completely they loose the more normal sense of self preservation and the dominant can hurt them or he can make life for them heaven on earth and they wouldn’t utter a sound either way. With them the dominant has to use his own better judgement. I know this sounds preposterous but my first submissive was exactly like that, to bad I was newly awakened and didn’t know how to deal with her and we drifted apart. I am speaking from experience having lived and seen others in similar circumstances. And this has nothing to do with experience or lack of by the submissive as they will behave this way anew with a new dominant.


This doesn't address either of my questions so I'm not sure if it's just a new thought and you are not going to address the issues which have been raised or you don't understand what people are asking.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to cillydom)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/16/2006 12:04:58 PM   
cillydom


Posts: 332
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		that issue was addressed in the essay when i said to find a dominant whos limits she could live with

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: One Dominants controversial thought on d/s - 3/16/2006 12:37:08 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

that issue was addressed in the essay when i said to find a dominant whos limits she could live with


So, if I understand you correctly, if a dominants limits are such that he cannot push a submissives limits because they don't exist, that element of need and love is missing from the relationship and must be garned in some other way which falls outside of the issue of limits?

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to cillydom)
Profile   Post #: 120
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