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RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 4:23:21 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Seems to me Orion came here for support in a time of awful stress. Also seems to me that he has always shown a consistent, honourable and ethical style in the past, even when disagreed with, such that I find it deeply distressing that he be here accused of confabulations - confabulations which incidentally he should have nothing to gain from - by someone long since proven to be an expert in such matters and utterly unashamed and undeterred on that account.

I therefore nominate said person for the highly unsought after award of the Estayehfoo Society of Collar Me. Can I get a seconder on that please?

You're darned right I'll second it! Just, uh... as soon as you tell me what the heck it means....

You know, when I put "said person" on ignore a week or so back, I was a little conflicted because I was worried I'd be missing out on all the comedy for which he is so often the catalyst. However, I decided it was worth it, because A) he so seldom says anything worth reading, and B) his nonsensical yammerings just distract from so many otherwise intelligent discussions.

But now I'm finding I've got the best of both worlds - I still catch the blowback from his most outrageous ridiculosity, but don't have to swat away the other pesky crap he constantly fires at us like some bizarre cross between a parrot and a machine gun.

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 12/7/2009 4:33:54 PM >

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RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 4:33:05 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Those that believe so, can believe that it is a hoax, or a metaphorical story, I don't care about either. What I do care about now is some information getting out, that I had not thought of before. Pretty stupid, but I will live with it.

Orion,

There may very well be no other poster on this site whom I respect more than i do you. There are probably a handful of others whom I would put in roughly the same category, but I can say with considerable confidence there is nobody i respect more. You are a man of almost unparalleled character and integrity, and please believe me when i say - anybody to whom a man such as you would have to prove your credibility isn't a man worth proving yourself to. You're among friends here, and I think I speak for almost everyone when i say we accept you exactly as you are, at face value. If there's anyone here who's earned that, it's you. I hope you and your loved ones continue to do as well as possible in the aftermath of this unfortunate event.

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Panda, panda, burning bright
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What immortal hand or eye
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RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 4:47:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

You will have noted that the guidelines have been updated following the Martin case of course.

There is no evidence whatever that Orion knew the intruder was going for a gun or indeed any weapon. The English law is very clear on this matter - unilateral attack is not self defence. Self defence is only legitimate when it is proportionate to attack and threat - there was no attack and there was no threat (the intruder being held at gunpoint) and therefore there was no self defence.

E

Thats not for you or I to decide, but a jury, in a court of law. Stating it as if it is fact wont make you right. You still havent posted details of a case that backs up your absurd claim.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 5:20:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius
You really really are not in touch with reality are you? In England, where handguns are illegal, more and more the criminals have handguns.

Burglars and such like don't typically have guns here. Drug pushers and gangs fighting over petty territory do. Different criminals have different approaches and the chances of a home invader using a gun here would be rare to the point of being practically unheard of. I’m sure if it was happening on a regular basis I would hear it reported on the news here but nada.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
So show me some evidence. The only high profile case I can recall recently is Tony Martin, who I mentioned.

Yeah why did they release him again? He shot someone in the back, in the dark, leaving the crime scene. Probably political pressure had more to do with his release than justice. He is in a slightly rare position legally because he was allowed to own a shot gun (for all those vital farming activities that require a gun such as errm clay pigeons and foxes perhaps.) thus some lawyer argued a shot gun was the first thing to hand or an impulsive action to a threat he faced. This would not be the case for most householders as the reasonable action is to evacuate the property and call the police. Why therefore it is held up as a typical example when it is an extreme case that doesn’t for the most part relate to the rest of us is not known. Do you own a shot gun perhaps?

I'm tired of Tony Martin being brought up to justify responsible gun ownership especially when the facts of the case state he was at the end of his tether and just flipped after continued harassment i.e. not at all the model of responsible gun ownership.

I don't care much for the other arguments, all the same nothing new but with perhaps the added flavour of an emotive firsthand experience.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 12/7/2009 5:22:20 PM >

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RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 6:05:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

OK...if he had died would it have been worth the junk in your basement big man?

Could you have quietly...with gun in hand called the police and said there was someone in your house then made sure your wife was safe...again with gun in hand and wait for the police to arrive...again with gun in hand?

Butch

This comment is too stupid for words. By your logic, we should all just allow crooks to do as they like. After all, it's just our 'junk' they're after. Our 'junk,' cars, money, lives. Why defend any of it?

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RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 6:11:06 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

OK...if he had died would it have been worth the junk in your basement big man?

Could you have quietly...with gun in hand called the police and said there was someone in your house then made sure your wife was safe...again with gun in hand and wait for the police to arrive...again with gun in hand?

Butch

This comment is too stupid for words. By your logic, we should all just allow crooks to do as they like. After all, it's just our 'junk' they're after. Our 'junk,' cars, money, lives. Why defend any of it?

I like you, man, but mark me down as someone who has no interest at all in your junk. Nothing personal; I just ain't wired that way.

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What immortal hand or eye
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RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 6:32:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

OK...if he had died would it have been worth the junk in your basement big man?

One man's junk is another man's treasure, and its worth to defend is for him to decide. But looking past that, there is a matter of principle here. Such things matter to some men, though only to the best of them.

"I do not understand then," she said.
"To uphold the law they have jeopardized their careers, they have entered into exile?"
"There are such men," I said.
"I do not understand them," she said.
"That," I said, "is because you do not understand honor."
"Honor," she said, "is for fools."

Perhaps it is true that men of principle are fools. But, too, perhaps the approval of someone who would ridicule a man for defending what he values is not that important.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/7/2009 7:13:01 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 6:36:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Were I an insensitive, but pragmatic, asshole; I'd say your mistake was only wounding him. But, trying to fit in the new PC culture, I'll keep those thoughts to myself.

I'll say it out loud for the both of us then. I've no interest in being PC when it comes to the safety of my family.

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RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 6:39:52 PM

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Joined: 5/30/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

OK...if he had died would it have been worth the junk in your basement big man?

Could you have quietly...with gun in hand called the police and said there was someone in your house then made sure your wife was safe...again with gun in hand and wait for the police to arrive...again with gun in hand?

Butch

There is no position easier to play than Monday morning quarterback. To sit in the comfort and safety of one's own home and dissect what was done when a dangerous and potentially deadly situation was going on is inappropriate to say the least.

I do not say that your idea of how to handle it is not valid. But it wasn't you or your loved one's on the line. Orion's was. Let's keep that in mind, shall we?

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 6:40:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I am going to put this here as it will wind up political. Please excuse my writing this morning, as I have been up since 3:45 am.

....

So to all the gun ban proponents out there, fuck you. I am going to eat, try and relax, and get some sleep. Argue as most of you are likely to do, but I feel better knowing my family was kept safe. I am sure there will be second guessing on things to do, I have been sitting here myself and doing that, but regardless the outcome is better than what it could have been,

And that, friends is how it's done. Orion went above and BEYOND what neeed to be done and the idiot STILL made a threatening motion towards him.

Good job, dude. Nice aim as well.

Edited to add: If you have any trouble winding down or sleeping at night, first remember that you warned him more than sufficiently and he made his choice. Secondly, a simple google search of news archives will show you what 'could' have happened had he gotten the upper hand.

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RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 6:51:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I stepped up to the door, weapon raised, and standing in the room was someone dressed in a bulky dark colored coat (later learned it was navy blue), ski mask, and gloves. They were bent over and looking through some of our storage boxes, and had pulled out a small fireproof safe that was at the bottom. I quick glanced the room, which there are no hiding places from the doorway, and I saw no one else. I aimed my pistol center mass and said "Don't move I have a gun pointed at you." and the person stopped, and slowly stood straight up. Now they were turned mostly away from me, and I could not see their hands. I then told them "slowly raise your hands in the air so I can see them".

At this point my girl had come to the entry way to the basement foyer and asked what was going on. Keeping my eyes on the person I told her to call 911 and tell them I had an intruder at gunpoint. The person still did not raise their hands, and I could not see them. I told them again "Slowly raise your hands in the air so I can see them, and make no sudden moves." There was no waivering in my voice, as I have been in similar situations, but the person did not raise their hands still. I finally said "Look motherfucker if you do not raise your hands I am going to assume you have a weapon and shoot you." The person turned quickly and as they did their right hand was coming up from their waist area, so I fired three times.

...Three shots, two in the chest and one in the abdomen. They searched the guy, and found a .25 cal pistol in his right coat pocket, a straight bladed knife, and burglary tools.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

There is no evidence whatever that Orion knew the intruder was going for a gun or indeed any weapon. The English law is very clear on this matter - unilateral attack is not self defence. Self defence is only legitimate when it is proportionate to attack and threat - there was no attack and there was no threat (???) (the intruder being held at gunpoint) and therefore there was no self defence.

E

Lady Ellen,
I think you may just be pointing out the stark contrast between your system and ours but I feel a need to confirm that.

The facts as presented by Orion speak for themselves and I am not sure why we are seeing this so differently.
Do you think Orion should have waited for the guy to turn around, gun in hand?

Orion did not want to shoot anyone on Saturday night.
He just wanted to ensure the safety of his family.

Also, you make several mentions of the fact that the perpetrator was shot 3 times.
In this country a law enforcement officer probably would not have behaved any differently.
If they are dealing with someone whose behavior indicates they probably have a weapon, they generally do fire more than once.
If they have a gun you do not want them to be able to use it. It was appropriate force.

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(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 6:54:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

OK...if he had died would it have been worth the junk in your basement big man?

Could you have quietly...with gun in hand called the police and said there was someone in your house then made sure your wife was safe...again with gun in hand and wait for the police to arrive...again with gun in hand?

Butch

I haven't continued to read the rest of the thread since My last entry. I saw this on the scroll. (I'll correct that afterwards.) I don't know if Orion has answered it, but I certainly will.

Yes, in fact, that 'junk' would have been more important to Me. So would have the rest of the things, as well as the people who were in the house.

Had it been Me, I wouldn't have taken My eyes off of the intruder for a second to fumble for a cell phone or to attempt to call the police Myself. That slight diversion could have cost Me My life in that situation. Since I would be the armed person in the home and the other members of the family may not have been, making that kind of mistake would have put all of them in jeopardy.

Say all you will about 'oh the intruder could have lost his life over junk' bit if you like. I'll stick with protecting Me and Mine anytime, whether it's PC or not.

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 12/7/2009 6:55:34 PM >

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RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 7:00:04 PM

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"OK, Mr. Burgular--you swear you're just here for the junk, and not to hurt anybody? Pinky-swear?"

Also, I can just see Ellen the Prosecutor:

"So...you DIDN'T see a bullet flying toward you, but you fired anyway, just on the odd chance that his sudden movement might be going for his gun? Not a Snickers bar?"

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 7:05:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Its odd that this hasn't shown up in the Georgia news yet.

Usually this sort of thing does.

In my area, the cop logs are posted in the paper only once a week.

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RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 7:56:34 PM

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Has it occurred to anybody that they've only heard one side of the story?

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RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 7:58:32 PM

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So let's see.

A friend has an armed intruder, and shoots him. You say, "Well, OK, but what's the intruder's side?"

Whatever.

(in reply to rikigrl)

RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 8:00:02 PM

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Hello Riki,
Of course we are hearing only one side of the story. But since you have not been around a long while, let me give you a little information about the man who created this thread. I have rarely seen a man of such integrity here or in real life. He is tough, honest, honorable, and speaks his mind - whether other people like it or not. He does not give two shits what others think. He walks in strength and does not apologize for it. He takes responsibility for his actions. If he says he did a, b, and c, you can damn well take it to the bank that he did a, b, and c.

We should all be so decent.

I wish you well,
sunshine

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RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 8:02:01 PM

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quote:

Has it occurred to anybody that they've only heard one side of the story?

What, the guy was simply lost and wound up in Orion's house by accident... in the middle of the night.... with his knife and gun?

Glad to hear that you and yours are all right, Orion.

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RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 8:08:18 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

You will have noted that the guidelines have been updated following the Martin case of course.

There is no evidence whatever that Orion knew the intruder was going for a gun or indeed any weapon. The English law is very clear on this matter - unilateral attack is not self defence. Self defence is only legitimate when it is proportionate to attack and threat - there was no attack and there was no threat (the intruder being held at gunpoint) and therefore there was no self defence.

E

Is English law really that completely fucked up, Lady E? Orion's actions would seriously not have been considered self-defense there, or is that just your interpretation of how it would apply in this case?

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

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RE: Defended my home - 12/7/2009 8:30:04 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

OK...if he had died would it have been worth the junk in your basement big man?

Could you have quietly...with gun in hand called the police and said there was someone in your house then made sure your wife was safe...again with gun in hand and wait for the police to arrive...again with gun in hand?

Butch

This comment is too stupid for words. By your logic, we should all just allow crooks to do as they like. After all, it's just our 'junk' they're after. Our 'junk,' cars, money, lives. Why defend any of it?

I am balancing life against things...for all you know the crook could have been your child on a dare from friends or high on drugs. Would you have liked him to gun him down then?

Things… under no circumstance are worth a life…no matter low that life is. The only important point is that the burglar may have used the gun…BUT only after he was confronted. He should have waited for the police to arrive, remember he moved to confront the burglar. Now if the burglar gave him no choice than that would be a different situation. It had not reached that point yet and a boy was unnecessarily shot.

If you can’t see that then you are the stupid one not me.

Butch

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