RE: Misogyny and BDSM (Full Version)

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wisdomtogive -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 4:59:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drifa

We've had a couple of really trollish individuals of late. I expect they will eventually get bored and move onwards. Overall the forums I read here are pretty interesting, though *everyone* has passionately held opinions about things!

Here's the funny part about that.  Usually during those times when we get a higher level of those types, it is such a great coincidence that school is not in session and you can tell from their posts that they are young.  Some of our most recent variety don't fit the same criteria that we've had during holidays past.

I can't be the only one who's noticed this.



No, you are not. times are changing, people out of work, nothing to do, some i swear are having a manic eposide, use to have them myself. It is different for sure




kittinSol -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 5:00:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

You are one smooth motherfucking misogynist dude!



Brotherhood!

Jeff


Come for your ball wax, Jeffffwey.




Jeffff -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 5:02:28 PM)

LOL....  I can't help it. I am an iconoclast by nature. Or a dick. Depends on who you ask.


Jeff




kiinkerbell -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 5:06:40 PM)

FR

I happen to adore Men, and their unique qualities. I also love and admire Women, for the same reasons. The unique qualities that Men and Women have, are fascinating and exciting. Those unique differences, can also be the cause of friction. Thats understandable, and hopefully we live and learn. What ever side the the kneel you are on, i think that Men and Women compliment each other nicely.[sm=2cents.gif]




LadyAngelika -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 5:08:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45
Let's address that first word, for a second. Shall we? Would you say all men are gentlemen, regardless of their actions and such? I wouldn't. I think many would agree that not all men are gentlemen.


Not all men are gentlemen. Alas, true gentlemen are a rare breed in my experience.

quote:

However, suggest for one fraction of a second that not all women are 'ladies' and you get a dog pile of feminists jumping down your throat, calling you sexist, chauvanist, etc.


Oh gosh, not all women are ladies. I agree with you there!

- LA




Loki45 -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 5:13:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Oh gosh, not all women are ladies. I agree with you there!


You're definitely the first woman I've met that did. The rest take some righteous, defensive stance when I say that.




Kimveri -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 5:16:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy519
Hi kittin;

Could I trouble you for some examples?


Sure: there's a planet over there called "Gor". Scoop over to the Gorean forum section and do a quick search.


Wow. Here all these years I've been calling myself a Gorean, defending my beliefs, my right to be a woman & NOT a man, I was contributing to the hatred of women?

See, when I read this (in a freaking GOR book, can ya believe it??):

quote:

"Human females are such rich and wonderful creatures. Their sexual life, and feelings, are subtle, complex and deep. How naive is the man who believes that having sex with a woman is so little or brief a thing as to fall within the parameters of a horizontal plane, the simple stimulations of a skin, the results attendant upon a simplistic manual dexterity. How woefully ignorant are the engineers of sexuality. How much to learn have even her artists and poets! Women are so inordinately precious. They are so sensitive, so beautiful, so intelligent and needful. No man has yet counted the dimensions of a woman's love. Who can measure the horizons of her heart? Few things, I suspect, are more real than those which seem most intangible."~pgs181-182BloodBrothers


I did NOT feel hated as a woman....

But when I come here & read kittinSol's post.....I DO feel hated...

Hmmm...mebbe we have a new term....misGorist? ;-P

There is more to it than the masses most visible & vocal (in a textual fashion) might have ya think. Sorta like...ohhh...I don' know....BDSM, mebbe?

*shrug*

Ultimately, I agree with Ron, in that there's a lot of hatin' going on & for some folks, that's just their preferred form of recreation -- hatin' on someone. They got to hate a LOT harder to get through my thick skin. hehehe

Ya'll have a happy new year!

~Kimveri




LadyAngelika -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 5:20:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Oh gosh, not all women are ladies. I agree with you there!


You're definitely the first woman I've met that did. The rest take some righteous, defensive stance when I say that.


I know many women who share my opinion.

Regardless, it isn't always easy to be a lady or a gentleman. I try to be a Lady as often as I can. I have my moments where I'm less of one of course.

- LA




Aswad -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 5:24:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

Sadly, msandry is welcomed with open arms. Funny that.


Let's face it... prejudices are the inbred cousins of rules of thumb.

And, like rules of thumb, they originate somewhere before the inbreeding sets in (and I think it is a highly apt term for the process). Obviously, by the time you get to Cousin It, there's not much of the origins left, and those origins may have been questionable in the first place. But misandry has a pretty solid historical record to originate the prejudice, though it's still accurate to call it a prejudice, just one that has been internalized. Misogyny is not so different in terms of the end result, but has a poorer foundation, a less solid origin.

As such, misandry is far more understandable- and marginally more excusable- than misogyny.

No man or woman is born with a damaged relationship to the opposite sex. It starts from overgeneralizations based on bad experiences, or from being passed on from others, or from permeating the dominant culture in formative years. The ideal response is to deconstruct the prejudice and to demonstrate that it is not based on a representative truth, which is something that I've actually devoted a bit of time to. An important part of the response is to foster understanding of the real properties of the group that is subject to prejudice, and lately I have been pimping Dr. Tannen's work with that in mind, a recommendation I stand by. Knowledge is the sole cure for ignorance.

Of course, for willful ignorance, there is no cure. It's like with a rabid dog: sad, but putting it down is the only solution.

I don't think misandry is welcomed with open arms on this board, but just like kittinSol sees misogyny where I might be oblivious to it, so too do I see misandry being tolerated to a greater extent than I am comfortable with (and, yes, kittin, I'm uncomfortable with misogyny when I notice it, too). Far more frequently, though, I see people joke in a manner that may lead others to think real misogyny or misandry is intended. And I think that is encouraging- that some of us see it as a given that such prejudices are false, and accordingly think our jokes will be seen for what they are: humor by way of mocking said prejudices.

If a bit more time could be spent trying to bridge the gap in understanding and communication between androculture and gynoculture (and vice versa, obviously), and a bit less time were spent on propagating prejudices and getting all indignated over their existence, there would be far less of either kind going around after a short while. It certainly did have an impact on the Gorean boards, where it would be accurate to say that there's a stronger consensus that both genders be respected and that individuals be judged on their own merits than on most other points. (You hearing any of this, kittin?) And if it can work with us stubborn assholes, it should work anywhere.

So, if you find it sad, take the time to learn more about the differences between androculture and gynoculture, and go cure some ignorance. It makes a difference, and it beats lamenting the problem.

Health,
al-Aswad.





Aswad -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 5:26:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

[8|] That was sad [:D] .


More like sarcastic.

quote:

I'm the mother of a son: what the male half of the specie thinks is as important to me as what my sisters think.


Excellent. How about not misrepresenting it, then? [;)]

Health,
al-Aswad.





kittinSol -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 5:29:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

Ultimately, I agree with Ron, in that there's a lot of hatin' going on & for some folks, that's just their preferred form of recreation -- hatin' on someone. They got to hate a LOT harder to get through my thick skin. hehehe



It's certainly not you I hate: it's Gor [8D]. Gor's ideals are offensive to me: sorry if that offends you. That's why I seldom venture over there, incidentally :-) .




AnimusRex -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 5:29:25 PM)

I hang out with the Goreans enough to know that there really aren't any more or less misognyists over there than anywhere else.

What I have noticed and said elsewhere, is that "extreme" belief systems- extreme political parties, extreme religious groups, extreme philosophies- tend to be a magnet for broken and damaged people seeing their salvation in some Grand Unified Theory of Everything.

So in the BDSM/Gor world, there is in fact a significant number of men and women who are seriously messed up in some way or another operating out of anger and fear and self-loathing.




LadyAngelika -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 5:30:29 PM)

quote:

As such, misandry is far more understandable- and marginally more excusable- than misogyny.


No it isn't. You can't keep a whole gender accountable for the actions of a portion of it.

- LA




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 5:33:48 PM)

Ignorance is sad, especially when it is willful.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol


quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
i think citing Gor as mysogeny is a bit wrong though, sorry. its their belief system, their kink and if theyre subs and slaves are happy who are we to question their Masters.


They think there is a natural order for women to be underneath men. They also think that a woman hasn't found her own true nature until she is the servant of a man. They deplore progress and lament feminism: Gor is the ultimate in misogyny.




Loki45 -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 5:39:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Let's face it... prejudices are the inbred cousins of rules of thumb.

And, like rules of thumb, they originate somewhere before the inbreeding sets in (and I think it is a highly apt term for the process). Obviously, by the time you get to Cousin It, there's not much of the origins left, and those origins may have been questionable in the first place. But misandry has a pretty solid historical record to originate the prejudice, though it's still accurate to call it a prejudice, just one that has been internalized. Misogyny is not so different in terms of the end result, but has a poorer foundation, a less solid origin.

As such, misandry is far more understandable- and marginally more excusable- than misogyny.

No man or woman is born with a damaged relationship to the opposite sex. It starts from overgeneralizations based on bad experiences, or from being passed on from others, or from permeating the dominant culture in formative years. The ideal response is to deconstruct the prejudice and to demonstrate that it is not based on a representative truth, which is something that I've actually devoted a bit of time to. An important part of the response is to foster understanding of the real properties of the group that is subject to prejudice, and lately I have been pimping Dr. Tannen's work with that in mind, a recommendation I stand by. Knowledge is the sole cure for ignorance.

Of course, for willful ignorance, there is no cure. It's like with a rabid dog: sad, but putting it down is the only solution.

I don't think misandry is welcomed with open arms on this board, but just like kittinSol sees misogyny where I might be oblivious to it, so too do I see misandry being tolerated to a greater extent than I am comfortable with (and, yes, kittin, I'm uncomfortable with misogyny when I notice it, too). Far more frequently, though, I see people joke in a manner that may lead others to think real misogyny or misandry is intended. And I think that is encouraging- that some of us see it as a given that such prejudices are false, and accordingly think our jokes will be seen for what they are: humor by way of mocking said prejudices.

If a bit more time could be spent trying to bridge the gap in understanding and communication between androculture and gynoculture (and vice versa, obviously), and a bit less time were spent on propagating prejudices and getting all indignated over their existence, there would be far less of either kind going around after a short while. It certainly did have an impact on the Gorean boards, where it would be accurate to say that there's a stronger consensus that both genders be respected and that individuals be judged on their own merits than on most other points. (You hearing any of this, kittin?) And if it can work with us stubborn assholes, it should work anywhere.

So, if you find it sad, take the time to learn more about the differences between androculture and gynoculture, and go cure some ignorance. It makes a difference, and it beats lamenting the problem.


Your post was well-written, articulate and very well put-together overall.

However, in the words of "Bowen" from "Dragonheart" -- "I no longer try to change the world, dragon. I just try to get by in it."




Loki45 -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 5:41:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
It's certainly not you I hate: it's Gor [8D]. Gor's ideals are offensive to me: sorry if that offends you. That's why I seldom venture over there, incidentally :-) .


People are often offended by what they don't understand, no matter how ironic that is.




Lucienne -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 5:44:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
take the time to learn more about the differences between androculture and gynoculture, and go cure some ignorance.


I... what the fuck? "Androculture" and "gynoculture"? Where'd that shit come from?




Kimveri -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 5:45:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
It's certainly not you I hate: it's Gor [8D]. Gor's ideals are offensive to me: sorry if that offends you. That's why I seldom venture over there, incidentally :-) .


Uhh...did ya read the quote at all? Those ARE Gorean ideals, & you hate those??

Please, kittinSol, do not buy into the loads of ignorant fools who think, like a bunch of 3rd graders, that if they wear the mighty blue Superman/Gorean cape they ARE a Superman/Gorean. When you accept their insistence that THEY are actually Goreans & their idiocy is "Gorean ideals", you validate their pitiful fantasies! This leaves me with more (kitt)in-validated idiots humping my Gorean ankle which I then have to either drop-kick back over here to this side OR debrief them in a long drawn-out re-education effort!

SEE why I'm feelin' like ya hate me?? ;-D

Take care!

~Kimveri




Loki45 -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 5:47:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

I'm the mother of a son: what the male half of the specie thinks is as important to me as what my sisters think.


Excellent. How about not misrepresenting it, then? [;)]


Oh I think she represents just fine. You just have to read between the lines. What the male half of the species thinks is equally important to her, so long as it doesn't contradict the female half. I've seen it before....too often.

My own mom had a startling wake-up call from me one day. She is divorced....since I was 5 and raised 2 kids -- me and my sister who is 4 years older. Naturally, beign 4 years older, she hit her growth spurt LONG before I did. And being the older sibling, she used to pound on me when I was too small to do anything about it. See....that was 'ok.' She was a female beating up a younger male. No one cared.

When I finally defended myself, however, all hell broke loose. There were screams of "you don't hit women!!!!!" thrown about. Funny how those same screams were never heard when I was the one getting pounded on. But when I finally stand up for myself (as I was told to do) I get in trouble for 'hitting women.'

This happens every day in society, as well. We abhor men who beat women and naturally assume that in any domestic violence situation that the men are to blame. We are aghast at jokes made about such a topic, UNLESS it's the woman who's done the beating (Tiger Woods, anyone?)

Misandry doesn't necessarily come in overt ways. It's part of how men and women differ. Men are more in-your-face with their stuff. They are the 'aggressive' ones, so to speak. With women, the misandry comes in the form of them doing everything that they whine about men doing, and then saying "oh you should be able to take it, you're a man."




Loki45 -> RE: Misogyny and BDSM (12/29/2009 5:49:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri
Uhh...did ya read the quote at all? Those ARE Gorean ideals, & you hate those??

Please, kittinSol, do not buy into the loads of ignorant fools who think, like a bunch of 3rd graders, that if they wear the mighty blue Superman/Gorean cape they ARE a Superman/Gorean. When you accept their insistence that THEY are actually Goreans & their idiocy is "Gorean ideals", you validate their pitiful fantasies! This leaves me with more (kitt)in-validated idiots humping my Gorean ankle which I then have to either drop-kick back over here to this side OR debrief them in a long drawn-out re-education effort!

SEE why I'm feelin' like ya hate me?? ;-D


She hates what she doesn't understand. It's very common in our society.....and apparently hers too.




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