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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/14/2010 10:07:20 PM   
seekingOwnertoo


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Ms Lockit ...

All i can say right now is .... HMMMMMMMM ...

It is really tough for a good man to make an impression around here .... LOL

i really have to read this thing ... in some detail ...

(in reply to Lockit)
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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/14/2010 10:10:06 PM   
Lockit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo

Ms Lockit ...

All i can say right now is .... HMMMMMMMM ...

It is really tough for a good man to make an impression around here .... LOL

i really have to read this thing ... in some detail ...


LOL... I think you have been doing pretty well for yourself!

_____________________________

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/14/2010 10:12:33 PM   
Reform


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
It's fun when kinks grow! Congrats! If you are curious about how I mix this up, read this.

- LA


Thanks! I'll be checking that out for sure.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/14/2010 10:21:19 PM   
LadyOddsworth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Ok, almost 5 years ago I started a thread on Forced Masculinity. Let's just say it had it's ups and downs. Part of it was because, as usual, I come to these forums with my half-formed ideas, ready to discuss them and I always inadvertently end up offending someone. But as we say in French, c'est la vie!

Now, I bring back the topic, a little wiser, a little more clear on what it is that I want to say. I call it "forced masculinity" to sort of counterbalance this incredibly huge demand for forced feminization.

One of things that has gotten me thinking is why do a great deal of sub men want to be dressed up like women? Is it because they want to be like us? Is it because they look up to us? What I've learned from those I've taken the time to get to know (and of course I'm not implying that this is every crossdresser's motivation) is that there is a desire to ignore the male aspect within themselves, to castrate it emotionally, to supress it.

Well fuck that! I want to bring it out the masculinity in my man ;-) You really want to be forced, boy? I'll force you to look in the mirror and reflect on what you really think a man is supposed to be, how a gentleman is supposed to act and treat his woman.

This is a crosspost from an article I wrote on FetLife about a month ago while reflecting on all this.

Respect. For your Lady. For yourself. That is what being a devoted gentleman is all about.

I crave gallant, chivalrous, masculine devoted gentlemen.

A devoted gentleman is well mannered and considerate. He opens doors for his Lady, walk on the outside side of the sidewalk and behind her up the stairs. He offers her his arm, helps her with her coat, pulls out her chair for her, stands when she, or any other Lady, excuses herself from the table. A devoted gentleman ensures his Lady's safety and comfort in a strong, confident way. Gallantry is also of high importance, lending her his jacket when she's cold, carrying an umbrella over her when it rains.

However, a gentleman is much more than a devoted man who treats his Lady well. A true gentleman behaves in an exemplary fashion, always. He is polite and courteous with others, doesn't interrupt conversations. When he contributes, he stays on topic, avoids cursing or speaking loudly. He keeps his temper in check. During moments of tension, he will keep his cool and be the bigger man. He is polite, discreet and well groomed, hair and nails well trimmed. He has impeccable manners and knows proper wine service etiquette. He greets people with a firm handshake, makes eye contact with others when he is speaking to them and is capable of discussing a variety of subjects. He is discreet about his income, assets and in general does not discuss money in public situations.

It is delightful to come across a gentleman. Unfortunately, I find they have become a rare bread.

It is also delightful to train a boy in the fine art of being a gentleman. I enjoy teaching him how I expect him to treat his Lady as well as all the aspects of being a true devoted gentleman. My incredibly high standards are appreciated as well.

There is a fabulous 3 part resource in the AskMen.com online magazine:

* Etiquette Of A Gentleman: Part I
* Etiquette Of A Gentleman: Part II
* Etiquette Of A Gentleman: Part III


So I look at my reflections from back then are still pertinent today:

My kink is masculanization. I feel a lot of men have lost touch of their masculinity. They have been "dénaturé" as we say in French, which is to take out of it's native environment, to deprive of its natural character, properties, etc,

I like to bring a man in touch with his true masculinity. Not some macho overcompensation but what it is to be a true gentleman, to take pride in manhood, in strength, etc.

Any other Domme share my fetish?


- LA


I like Lady Angelika's point. I love all of the aforementioned qualities in a man. I plan to help foster mine, (when I find one) in such a way.

I have personally found men who want to be forced into panties etc, crave humiliation. However, I crave being treated like a lady by a true gentleman, whom will go to any lengths to please me and make me happy.







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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/14/2010 10:30:28 PM   
OttersSwim


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This is a great topic!  There is a vast difference between a -male- and a -man- and frankly, that difference is often taught to males by women.  In times past, certainly there were codes of honor, chivalry, and ethics that were taught to males and I sometimes feel as if we have lost a lot of the "better angels" in those codes in our standard western male upbringing.

The primary thing I see in masculine behavior is the establishment of -boundaries- both personal and external beyond which a -man- will simply not go for himself, or when crossed by someone else, he will go and sometimes violently so.  They are ideals of behavior, courtesy, and the juxtaposition of gentleness and aggression that guide a man's actions towards all people around him, both other males and females.  There is also a boundary beyond which a man can and is expected to step out of the context of polite societal behavior and stand for something, or between something in protection, service, or aggression if necessary.

Key elements of a -man-, IMO, are idealized behavior patterns based on integrity, honor, and duty.  On the surface they manifest into what we commonly see as the behavior of a gentleman - opening doors, pulling chairs, helping others.  Deeper, we see males who act with integrity even when there is personal or life consequences at stake, or those who act out of duty or loyalty - again often at risk of self.

These qualities are not unique to males by any means...but there is most often a socialized expectation of these types of behaviors in males. 


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(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/14/2010 10:34:35 PM   
seekingOwnertoo


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This is a very interesting question ... one that makes me think ... and laugh ... in many ways!

i cannot think of many people ... Ladies as well as men ... who have ever said i was anything but a gentleman. (except those who called me %$*&$*( or $%&#(%*

Yet i can tell You ... in vanilla life ... have tossed me aside for their mental vision of ... John Wayne ... Jonny Dep ... Brad Pitt ... or Clint Eastwood .... or ... (name your star here)

In fact, one Lady told me point blank ... because i was a gentleman ... i wasn't man enough for Her !!! LOL

Of course She was vanilla ... and Her father was a politician ... but who is counting liars, cheats and other weak things ...

Again ... my third post and i haven't read the whole thing ... but i am thinking Movies and TV have had a LOT to do with defining male masculinity ... actions ... and behavior ...

As well as Women's expectations ...

i think We as a People ... have become so superficial ... we don't even know what we want ...


(in reply to LadyOddsworth)
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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/14/2010 10:36:41 PM   
LanceHughes


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<after a FULL read through>

Gay Dom here - - - I demand such respect and gentlemany behavior from my boys.  As a Daddy-type (moving toward more Masterful behavior) I think of them as young men (NOT age-related) who need to learn those behaviors from their surrogate Father figure.

So, ladies, send 'em to me and I'll train 'em the right way, my way........ooops!  Please pardon the redundacy with my signature line. LOL!

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 1/14/2010 10:38:05 PM >


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(in reply to OttersSwim)
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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/14/2010 10:37:34 PM   
Lockit


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Good point Otter! I expect from myself, the same things I expect in a man... except maybe our physical being. I have met many men who acted a gentlemen, who were nothing close to a gentleman! They opened doors... said all the right things and yet they didn't have an honest or honorable bone in their body.

It takes more then gentalmanly behavior to make a decent man or human being. Charactor goes for anyone. A good and strong charactor makes whoever or whatever we are... the great person and highlights whatever we have going for us in other area's.

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/14/2010 10:40:40 PM   
LanceHughes


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Lockit: You nailed it from my point of view.  Father figures can <and MUST> install masculine behavior in their young males.  The politness aspect is (to some extent) superficial.  Character, character, character. 

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"Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer, but wish we didn't." Erica Jong

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(in reply to Lockit)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/14/2010 10:43:04 PM   
Lockit


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Actually seeking... I use the names of famous people because it might help discribe someone or something that most will understand.

The hero types in my mind... in my life were my grandfather... my step father... men I knew and was with and men I knew and wasn't with... that no one here would know. It was my grandfather's loving hand that walked me to my first day at school, who walked me to my room at night when I stayed at their house, who taught me how to be a good person based on his example. A big man... a rough and tough, hard working man and yet the gentlest man I ever knew!

My step father was a hollywood looking type. His work ethics and honor... his directness and honesty, whether you liked it or not... helped me learn and teach my own children how to be a decent person.

The men I knew besides them... that stood out taught me many things, that only re-enforced what grandpa and dad taught me.

The men that touched my life were real and strong and I am very thankful for the lessons they taught me in life. And man... do I miss them!

< Message edited by Lockit -- 1/14/2010 10:44:50 PM >


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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/14/2010 10:43:49 PM   
seekingOwnertoo


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Your assuming ... they really want gentlemen .... my question is .. do they???

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/14/2010 10:47:05 PM   
Lockit


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Gentlemen come in all types of men... and yes... I want a gentleman!

Seeking... I am sorry someone said that to you.

_____________________________

No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!


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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/14/2010 10:59:24 PM   
seekingOwnertoo


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Sorry .. didn't see Your last post when i wrote that ... still laughing about Johnny Depp and Brad Pitt ...

All joking aside .. it seems You have clear role models ... in men ...

quote:

Lockit The hero types in my mind... in my life were my grandfather... my step father... men I knew and was with and men I knew and wasn't with... that no one here would know.


< Message edited by seekingOwnertoo -- 1/14/2010 11:01:26 PM >

(in reply to Lockit)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/14/2010 11:03:45 PM   
Lockit


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LOL Seeking... I do... but some were... well, quite fem or artistic as some called it. I will never forget my mother being afraid that I liked small men... men who were not the he-man type that she married in my dad. lol I pointed out all the types of men I dated... but her own image of what a man was, was rather fantasy like and it wasn't until much later in life she finally got it and found a man total opposite of what she had always gone for.

I just liked men period... but they had to have that charactor and keeping me laughing was a big bonus! lol

_____________________________

No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!


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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/14/2010 11:09:35 PM   
Lockit


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Shit... I just realized I called Johnny Depp... Johnny Deep... what the hell was I thinking? lol

_____________________________

No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!


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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/14/2010 11:17:44 PM   
seekingOwnertoo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Shit... I just realized I called Johnny Depp... Johnny Deep... what the hell was I thinking? lol



ROFL ... i can only imagine ...

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/14/2010 11:19:23 PM   
Wickad


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(fast reply)

Ty LadyAngelika,

I must say that I am a bit tired of men seeking to be feminized and I won't even get into the reasons I've been told why they seek this.

That being said, I don't want to force masculinity on anyone. I want my man to come already trained - lol. At first I was very on board with Otter's idea of a gentlemen but after reading LanceHuges post I realized that what I'm seeking is a Leather boy. Where I live they are few, far-between, and usually gay - lol. But that's my dream - a Leather boy for my very own - lol.

Wickad

(in reply to Lockit)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 12:33:05 AM   
SimplyIsaac


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I scratch my head wondering how you can force a man to be "masculine." In the past this was pushing males into traditional societal roles and out of others.

Masculine was anything not: gay, feminine (aka, no cooking, cleaning, or child rearing), secretarial, teaching elementary school, nursing, etc.


Judging by the quality of whining submissives aspiring to be the princesses in the relationship, it's not too hard to see LA's point here, Cloudboy. Perhaps the stereotype of submissive man=noodley pickle kisser isn't so far off, considering the strange fascination so many "submissive" men have with being feminized and cuckolded.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 12:40:16 AM   
seekingOwnertoo


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My thoughts … somewhat serious … are based on observation I have made… and hypothesis drawn from them. And of course, a hypothesis is not a law … and is always subject to change.

The hypothesis:

Men who are in successful, long term relationships of the vanilla variety … tend to become domesticated … to the disposition of the Lady to whom they are married (involved with …etc).

They tend to behave, according to the standards imposed by the Lady they spend their lives with.

And while the standards defining the word gentleman … tend to vary from person to person … what is a very common is that the man adapts to the wishes of the Lady.

I am thinking the definition of this phenomena is love … and when it is discovered, admitted and accepted by the male … he instinctively begins to adapt to the standards set by the Lady.

Although, there is no observable, quantifiable standard to define a gentleman, each Lady has Her own standard. A standard to which the male is trained, learns, grows and adapts, over time. Or else, he does not stay in Her life.

This really is a very common phenomenon in human relationships … and not unique. And it is especially not unique to alternative lifestyles.

But You will NOT see men on collar me begging for this … because this is a REAL POWER EXCHANGE!

The man really gives up power and authority to the Lady … and modifies his behavior to Her expectations and desires.

And … Real Power Exchange scares the hell out of men … and many are on collar me hoping for an escape ... a quick fantasy game.

So it is easier to carry on false facades of bravado … get online and beg for my fantasy (without any skin in the game) … and feel you are hidden from real life by a computer screen.

And of course, if you feel hidden by the computer screen … you naturally assume the person on the other end is doing the same.

So the person who started the thread …

Your kink might just scare men …
It seems too vanilla … too real life … too serious ... to consider a kink!

Yet I feel … just about any man You get involved with in real life … will swallow Your kink … hook, line and sinker … and believe it is the most wonderful kink they have ever encountered! Cause they will be in love ... and eager to please You!

So keep going ... because when You find Your one ... he will change to Your every expectation ...



< Message edited by seekingOwnertoo -- 1/15/2010 12:56:40 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 12:55:18 AM   
seekingOwnertoo


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quote:

I make brussel sprouts with sherry vinegar, maple syrup, shallots, Dijon mustard and pecans. Everybody (really everybody) loves them. They are delicious alongside roasted pheasant ;-)


Besides .. isn't the path to a man's heart through his stomach? And this dinner sounds ........ heavenly ........ big smiles

(in reply to seekingOwnertoo)
Profile   Post #: 60
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