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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 1:09:49 AM   
seekingOwnertoo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

There is a vast difference between a -male- and a -man- and frankly, that difference is often taught to males by women. In times past, certainly there were codes of honor, chivalry, and ethics that were taught to males and I sometimes feel as if we have lost a lot of the "better angels" in those codes in our standard western male upbringing.


Very good point ... similar to my hypothesis ... and there seems to be some observable truth here

Yet the question becomes ...how did we lose those codes? TV, Movies, Popular Culture? Did they contribute to the demise of honor, chivalry, ethics and gentlemen?

And most of all ... is there anything we can do to restore respect for these admirable traits?

< Message edited by seekingOwnertoo -- 1/15/2010 1:19:46 AM >

(in reply to OttersSwim)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 1:50:33 AM   
seekingOwnertoo


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quote:

Wickad
I must say that I am a bit tired of men seeking to be feminized and I won't even get into the reasons I've been told why they seek this.


i myself am not into this ... or cuckolding ... but as a man who reads a lot of Ladies profiles ... i must say ... there are a lot of Women who claim to WANT cuckolding on this site. Say thirty to forty percent of the Female profiles ... (Unscientific guess)

A much smaller number want to feminize men ... but there are still quite a few.

So perhaps ... and i mean perhaps ... they are saying what they THINK a Dominant Woman wants .... it is a thought i had ... because You know ... not everyone here on Collar Me has the knowledge You do ...

< Message edited by seekingOwnertoo -- 1/15/2010 1:52:09 AM >

(in reply to Wickad)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 2:27:24 AM   
seekingOwnertoo


Posts: 1323
Joined: 8/1/2009
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quote:

"forced masculinity" to sort of counterbalance this incredibly huge demand for forced feminization.


While i personally have no idea of the demand for forced feminization ... and i have no interest in doing it ...

i am thinking a lot of the demand may come from people who are relatively new ... and do not really know much about the site or anything else.

They have no idea of what D/s or power exchange involve.

Dommes who like forced Fem are few here (there are some).

But on pay sites, which may be some peoples only real experience ... it is played up way bigger. Some of those who come here to Collar Me ... expect a pay site experience ... but for free.

So their experience and expectations are WAY DIFFERENT from Yours ... but it is the only thing they know.

And the pay site caters to THEIR FANTASYS AND TEACHES THEM THE "D/s Lifestyle" .....

i admire You for putting forth Your own Fetish ... so boldly and upfront!

Cause if my scenario is even close to correct ... a lot of people will not like Your post!!!! LOL

< Message edited by seekingOwnertoo -- 1/15/2010 3:44:12 AM >

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 3:55:41 AM   
LadyDelilahDeb


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Fast reply:

LA, I'm going to peruse those articles when I get a chance.

The thing that I find interesting is that you have defined a characteristic of my only collared sub (at present). I have other regular subs, but only one collared. I had not thought of it in the light that you shine on it, but a great many of the behaviors/traits you specify are some of the ways that this particular gent has not only endeared himself to me, but made himself valuable during our opportunities for time together.

So, thank you. You have added another strand to my ruminations on *my* particular, preferred style of domination. (The last addition came from priestessing a collaring ceremony in which the couple in question and I all ended up agreeing that fealty and homage was the model we wanted to incorporate. And I was especially intrigued to realize that one of the synonyms of "fealty" is "submission."

_____________________________

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"…the Wicca…raise power from their bodies to give power to the Gods." —from British Traditional lore

(in reply to seekingOwnertoo)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 4:35:24 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo
Men who are in successful, long term relationships of the vanilla variety … tend to become domesticated … to the disposition of the Lady to whom they are married (involved with …etc).

They tend to behave, according to the standards imposed by the Lady they spend their lives with.

And while the standards defining the word gentleman … tend to vary from person to person … what is a very common is that the man adapts to the wishes of the Lady.

I am thinking the definition of this phenomena is love … and when it is discovered, admitted and accepted by the male … he instinctively begins to adapt to the standards set by the Lady.

Although, there is no observable, quantifiable standard to define a gentleman, each Lady has Her own standard. A standard to which the male is trained, learns, grows and adapts, over time. Or else, he does not stay in Her life.

This really is a very common phenomenon in human relationships … and not unique. And it is especially not unique to alternative lifestyles.

It is funny you should say that, as a group of my vanilla friends had a discussion about this at a dinner party over the holidays. And trust me, not all my girlfriends are Domme!

quote:

But You will NOT see men on collar me begging for this … because this is a REAL POWER EXCHANGE!

While I agree this represents a good portion of the people on this network, let's generalize. I do see relationship minded men here, serious men. If there weren't, I wouldn't be here.

quote:

The man really gives up power and authority to the Lady … and modifies his behavior to Her expectations and desires.

And … Real Power Exchange scares the hell out of men … and many are on collar me hoping for an escape ... a quick fantasy game.

And I know women can get scared too. When I was younger, I would play but I would not get involved in a long term relationship as I didn't want to get tied down. So this goes both ways.

quote:

So it is easier to carry on false facades of bravado … get online and beg for my fantasy (without any skin in the game) … and feel you are hidden from real life by a computer screen.

And of course, if you feel hidden by the computer screen … you naturally assume the person on the other end is doing the same.

True, though most men that are local to me that have written to me wanted to meet in person. Of course, I didn't meet them all in person, but a few yes to see if there was a click. So far, not the right click, but I am hopeful!

quote:

So the person who started the thread …

Your kink might just scare men …
It seems too vanilla … too real life … too serious ... to consider a kink!


Well I have been told I what I like is scary, even quite recently, but I think it was scary in a "good" way. ;-)

quote:

Yet I feel … just about any man You get involved with in real life … will swallow Your kink … hook, line and sinker … and believe it is the most wonderful kink they have ever encountered! Cause they will be in love ... and eager to please You!

So keep going ... because when You find Your one ... he will change to Your every expectation ...


Aw thanks. That is really sweet. :-)

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to seekingOwnertoo)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 4:43:16 AM   
seekingOwnertoo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Aw thanks. That is really sweet. :-)

- LA




You are VERY welcome ... Your intelligence, wit and wisdom keep me coming back to these boards! Smiles

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 4:47:04 AM   
seekingOwnertoo


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quote:

While I agree this represents a good portion of the people on this network, let's generalize. I do see relationship minded men here, serious men. If there weren't, I wouldn't be here.


You are again right on the money ... there are relationship minded men here ... You are not wasting Your time

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 4:48:51 AM   
seekingOwnertoo


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quote:

Well I have been told I what I like is scary, even quite recently, but I think it was scary in a "good" way. ;-)


i think that was a Beautiful Compliment to You ... big smiles

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 5:03:29 AM   
seekingOwnertoo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

And trust me, not all my girlfriends are Domme!


Only to be a fly on the wall ... LOL ... cause i know who the bosses were at that party ... LOL ... and i am simply trying to quantify my hypothesis ...

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 5:04:02 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

This is a great topic! There is a vast difference between a -male- and a -man- and frankly, that difference is often taught to males by women. In times past, certainly there were codes of honor, chivalry, and ethics that were taught to males and I sometimes feel as if we have lost a lot of the "better angels" in those codes in our standard western male upbringing.


Indeed! I feel it too. The men that I work with are all absolute gentlemen and I often tell them that I hope they are raising their sons to be gentlemen like this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

<after a FULL read through>

Gay Dom here - - - I demand such respect and gentlemany behavior from my boys.  As a Daddy-type (moving toward more Masterful behavior) I think of them as young men (NOT age-related) who need to learn those behaviors from their surrogate Father figure.


You are right in saying that the initial responsability for gentlemanly behaviour for a young man is assigned to his father. Unfortunately, in many cases the father isn't present and no one steps up to fill in this role. Even worse, the father is present and does nothing, perhaps because he doesn't know how to be a gentleman, perhaps because he doesn't know how to teach!

While I prefer meeting a man who's already a gentleman, I don't mind at all helping him along with refinement. I do this through education rather than forcing, of course, though sometimes there is a bit of a struggle ;-)

I will not however start off with someone who is completely without manners. In that case, I will send them to you Lance! ;-) Ha!!

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to LanceHughes)
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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 5:12:09 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyDelilahDeb

Fast reply:

LA, I'm going to peruse those articles when I get a chance.

The thing that I find interesting is that you have defined a characteristic of my only collared sub (at present). I have other regular subs, but only one collared. I had not thought of it in the light that you shine on it, but a great many of the behaviors/traits you specify are some of the ways that this particular gent has not only endeared himself to me, but made himself valuable during our opportunities for time together.

Funny that! The way to a woman's heart and into her life is by being a gentleman. You know, I have a few really close male vanilla friends, who yes, are good looking and successful, but so are many, many men in my environment. But some of my male friends stand out because they are total gentlemen. And all the girls I know go goo goo when they are around because no woman can resist a true gentleman. You want to talk about servitude? Well this is perhaps one of the most important demonstrations.

quote:

So, thank you. You have added another strand to my ruminations on *my* particular, preferred style of domination.


Yay! :-)

quote:

The last addition came from priestessing a collaring ceremony in which the couple in question and I all ended up agreeing that fealty and homage was the model we wanted to incorporate. And I was especially intrigued to realize that one of the synonyms of "fealty" is "submission."


That might make for an interesting thread :-)

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to LadyDelilahDeb)
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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 6:07:22 AM   
LadyPact


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It's been mentioned twice on this thread, but I wanted to emphasize the point.  It occurs to Me, LadyA, that you might be interested in a submissive with experience in the leather culture, with or without choosing to incorporate high protocol into your personal dynamic.  A good deal of what you state in the original is very common for those of us who lean towards leather.  In My experience, I can say that gentlemanly behavior is often the order of the day, regardless of role.  This was, and still is, one of the very reasons that I was drawn to the leather lifestyle from the very beginning.

Years ago, I was at a seminar which was a round table discussion on the subject of proper service in a leather household.  One of the recommendations in teaching those who weren't necessarily taught gentlemanly behavior in their upbringing but were wanting to become a leather slave was a resource that wasn't lifestyle related at all.  It was a pair of books penned by the same author written in the 1800's about proper ettiquette for young gentlemen and young ladies respectively.  I remember thinking at the time what incredible sense that made to Me.  One of those 'a-ha' moments that seemed so blatantly obvious that it makes you wonder why you never thought of it before.

I am not saying that you will only find such behaviors in those coming from the leather culture or even that you will always find it there, but it might be a commonality with your 'kink' of forced masculinity that you may like to explore.


< Message edited by LadyPact -- 1/15/2010 6:08:09 AM >


_____________________________

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Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 6:17:47 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I am not saying that you will only find such behaviors in those coming from the leather culture or even that you will always find it there, but it might be a commonality with your 'kink' of forced masculinity that you may like to explore.



LadyPact, yes I have noticed that it is a strong facet of the leather culture. And to be honest, some of my experiences in kink in my mid 20s were on the fringe of the leather culture which is, as you know, very common with LGBT (I was in a relationship with a woman at the time). I saw a lot of protocol there that was very delightful indeed and maybe to some degree, this is where some of it eminates from, the forced part that is. As the gentleman part eminates from the wonderful gentlemen I've known.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 7:21:28 AM   
LaTigresse


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Without going into details of my personal life......I do live my life pretty much surrounded by men. I have no particular desire to dominate a male (except Prince ) within a relationship context, and couldn't be submissive to one to save my life.

That being said, not that long ago I realized that all of the men in my life do end up being submissive towards me in a fashion.

IF I was going to go looking for a guy, I wouldn't look for an obviously submissive guy for most of the reasons discussed here. For many self identified submissive men, it ends up being more about getting their kink served and less about serving a woman as she wants. And I personally am not attracted to any feminine characteristics in a man.....aside from the previously mentioned male. Nor am I ever interested in any kinky activities with men. The very idea just gives me an "Eeeeewwww!!!"

For me, IF indeed I was looking for a guy, I would have to say it would be someone similar to the new Bond guy. A gentleman with an edge on him. Controlled power. Power that there is less an aura of submissiveness, but at the core, it is there. And it is controlled by a woman. I guess that character is not unlike one of the guys is my life. To way over simplify it, it is similar to my relationship with my horses.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 7:27:04 AM   
OttersSwim


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Posted for interest - Codes of Chivalry and Courtly Love:

The Ten Commandments of the Code of Chivalry From Chivalry by Leon Gautier
  • Thou shalt believe all that the Church teaches, and shalt observe all its directions.
  • Thou shalt defend the Church.
  • Thou shalt repect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them.
  • Thou shalt love the country in the which thou wast born.
  • Thou shalt not recoil before thine enemy.
  • Thou shalt make war against the Infidel without cessation, and without mercy.
  • Thou shalt perform scrupulously thy feudal duties, if they be not contrary to the laws of God.
  • Thou shalt never lie, and shall remain faithful to thy pledged word.
  • Thou shalt be generous, and give largess to everyone.
  • Thou shalt be everywhere and always the champion of the Right and the Good against Injustice and Evil.
  • \

  •  The Code of Chivalry From the Rifts: England Supplement.
    • Live to serve King and Country.
    • Live to defend Crown and Country and all it holds dear.
    • Live one's life so that it is worthy of respect and honor.
    • Live for freedom, justice and all that is good.
    • Never attack an unarmed foe.
    • Never use a weapon on an opponent not equal to the attack.
    • Never attack from behind.
    • Avoid lying to your fellow man.
    • Avoid cheating.
    • Avoid torture.
    • Obey the law of king, country, and chivalry.
    • Administer justice.
    • Protect the innocent.
    • Exhibit self control.
    • Show respect to authority.
    • Respect women.
    • Exhibit Courage in word and deed.
    • Defend the weak and innocent.
    • Destroy evil in all of its monstrous forms.
    • Crush the monsters that steal our land and rob our people.
    • Fight with honor.
    • Avenge the wronged.
    • Never abandon a friend, ally, or noble cause.
    • Fight for the ideals of king, country, and chivalry.
    • Die with valor.
    • Always keep one's word of honor.
    • Always maintain one's principles.
    • Never betray a confidence or comrade.
    • Avoid deception.
    • Respect life and freedom.
    • Die with honor.
    • Exhibit manners.
    • Be polite and attentive.
    • Be respectful of host, women, and honor.
    • Loyalty to country, King, honor, freedom, and the code of chivalry.
    • Loyalty to one's friends and those who lay their trust in thee.

    The Twelve Chief Rules in Love From The Art of Courtly Love by Andreas Capellanus
    1. Thou shalt avoid avarice like the deadly pestilence and shalt embrace its opposite.
    2. Thou shalt keep thyself chaste for the sake of her whom thou lovest.
    3. Thou shalt not knowingly strive to break up a correct love affair that someone else is engaged in.
    4. Thou shalt not chose for thy love anyone whom a natural sense of shame forbids thee to marry.
    5. Be mindful completely to avoid falsehood.
    6. Thou shalt not have many who know of thy love affair.
    7. Being obedient in all things to the commands of ladies, thou shalt ever strive to ally thyself to the service of Love.
    8. In giving and receiving love's solaces let modesty be ever present.
    9. Thou shalt speak no evil.
    10. Thou shalt not be a revealer of love affairs.
    11. Thou shalt be in all things polite and courteous.
    12. In practising the solaces of love thou shalt not exceed the desires of thy lover.
    The Art of Courtly Love From The Art of Courtly Love by Andreas Capellanus
    1. Marriage is no real excuse for not loving.
    2. He who is not jealous cannot love.
    3. No one can be bound by a double love.
    4. It is well known that love is always increasing or decreasing.
    5. That which a lover takes against the will of his beloved has no relish.
    6. Boys do not love until they reach the age of maturity.
    7. When one lover dies, a widowhood of two years is required of the survivor.
    8. No one should be deprived of love without the very best of reasons.
    9. No one can love unless he is propelled by the persuasion of love.
    10. Love is always a stranger in the home of avarice.
    11. It is not proper to love any woman whom one would be ashamed to seek to marry.
    12. A true lover does not desire to embrace in love anyone except his beloved.
    13. When made public love rarely endures.
    14. The easy attainment of love makes it of little value: difficulty of attainment makes it prized.
    15. Every lover regularly turns pale in the presence of his beloved.
    16. When a lover suddenly catches sight of his beloved his heart palpitates.
    17. A new love puts an old one to flight.
    18. Good character alone makes any man worthy of love.
    19. If love diminishes, it quickly fails and rarely revives.
    20. A man in love is always apprehensive.
    21. Real jealousy always increases the feeling of love.
    22. Jealousy increases when one suspects his beloved.
    23. He whom the thought of love vexes eats and sleeps very little.
    24. Every act of a lover ends in the thought of his beloved.
    25. A true lover considers nothing good except what he thinks will please his beloved.
    26. Love can deny nothing to love.
    27. A lover can never have enough of the solaces of his beloved.
    28. A slight presumption causes a lover to suspect his beloved.
    29. A man who is vexed by too much passion usually does not love.
    30. A true lover is constantly and without intermission possessed by the thought of his beloved.
    31. Nothing forbids one woman being loved by two men or one man by two women.


    < Message edited by OttersSwim -- 1/15/2010 7:58:12 AM >


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    RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 7:29:08 AM   
    LadyAngelika


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    Amazing Otter! Thanks.

    Now I'll replace, Church, God, King, etc by LadyAngelika and it'll all be good ;-)

    - LA

    _____________________________

    Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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    Profile   Post #: 76
    RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 1:37:01 PM   
    Wheldrake


    Posts: 477
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

    A devoted gentleman is well mannered and considerate. He opens doors for his Lady, walk on the outside side of the sidewalk and behind her up the stairs. He offers her his arm, helps her with her coat, pulls out her chair for her, stands when she, or any other Lady, excuses herself from the table. A devoted gentleman ensures his Lady's safety and comfort in a strong, confident way. Gallantry is also of high importance, lending her his jacket when she's cold, carrying an umbrella over her when it rains.

    However, a gentleman is much more than a devoted man who treats his Lady well. A true gentleman behaves in an exemplary fashion, always. He is polite and courteous with others, doesn't interrupt conversations. When he contributes, he stays on topic, avoids cursing or speaking loudly. He keeps his temper in check. During moments of tension, he will keep his cool and be the bigger man. He is polite, discreet and well groomed, hair and nails well trimmed. He has impeccable manners and knows proper wine service etiquette. He greets people with a firm handshake, makes eye contact with others when he is speaking to them and is capable of discussing a variety of subjects. He is discreet about his income, assets and in general does not discuss money in public situations.



    To me this sounds like a very specific type of masculine behaviour, and one that frankly strikes me as a bit formal and stilted. Proper wine service etiquette? Surely if one wants to consume wine, the suitable procedure is to pour it in a glass and drink it. I actually am fairly discreet about discussing money, but a few years of living in Asia has basically convinced me that this is a senseless Western inhibition I would be better off without. Although I make a point of opening doors for Mistress, and trying to make her comfortable in other small ways, I see this as a function of power exchange rather than gender roles. If she were my slave, instead of vice-versa, I'd probably expect her to open doors for me.

    If Mistress suddenly decided she wanted to make me into a gentleman in the sense you're describing, I think I'd find the process somewhere between uncomfortable and maddening. It would feel less like developing my masculinity than like learning to conform to a set of arbitrary rules and standards - which would also be my reaction, I suspect, if she suddenly decided to feminise me. Either one would test my ability to submit to an unfamiliar regimen, but beyond that I don't think there would be too much emotional impact (well, I'd find it humiliating to be paraded in public in feminine clothing, but that would have more to do with the likely reactions of other people - given that I'm sure I couldn't "pass" - than with the feminisation itself). I suppose traditional notions of how men and women should dress and behave just don't have too much resonance for me. Most of the qualities I try to cultivate in myself, including some of the ones you mentioned (courtesy, control of temper), are also qualities that I admire in women.

    Your mileage obviously varies, which is fine. The world would be a boring place if we all thought the same way, and I hope you find yourself a proper gentleman or at least someone you can gentlemanise (if that's a word). However, I do think you're trying to cultivate something more specific than what I would consider to be masculinity. It's an interesting project, especially since it seems to me that a lot of the formal deference to women that an old-school gentleman was supposed to display (holding umbrellas, and so on) was basically superficial and combined with an expectation of wielding authority over the womenfolk. A submissive gentleman, of course, would be free of this hypocrisy, which is something I like about your approach.



    (in reply to LadyAngelika)
    Profile   Post #: 77
    RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 1:52:49 PM   
    LaTigresse


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    I know a guy that is neither dominant nor submissive, just very very vanilla, that knows proper wine service and pretty much does everything on that list.

    It is not a really difficult list.


    _____________________________

    My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

    Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

    (in reply to Wheldrake)
    Profile   Post #: 78
    RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 6:08:12 PM   
    SomethingCatchy


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

    Lockit, thanks for trying to help. I have a feeling it is a wasted effort. I guess as a Domina on Collarme.com, I'm not allowed to talk about my kink without being flamed.

    So not only am I being told by half of the submissive men what I should be doing to them, the other part is telling me that I can't talk about what I like.

    - LA


    It's just a lame attempt to derail a thread NOT about force fem. They can't stand it that someone might *gasp* not want to talk about themthemthem.


    _____________________________

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    Profile   Post #: 79
    RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/15/2010 7:04:50 PM   
    Lockit


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    Joined: 5/7/2007
    Status: offline
     You know psychonaut... that is the one of the stupidest and downright offensive things someone could say. How dare you. You start arguments all over the place and I sure as hell won't argue with you... and do not want to see this thread go that direction... but you are talking out your ass.





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    (in reply to Psychonaut23)
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