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Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 7:29:24 AM

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Someone help me with this please? Confusion is raining in my pragmatic brain.

If you are in the country illegally how can you openly and VERY publicly protest about the consequences of your illegal action becoming more serious? How can the police that are being paid by citizen's taxes, protect versus verify, and if here illegally, collect them and taking them back across the border?

How can ANY person, especially the young "unmentionables", grow to respect any law with this example? The people may be immigrants looking for the "American Dream", but the bottom line is they are ILLEGAL immigrants. Amazingly they and their supporters don't argue that fact, they just don't think it's "fair".

Also, if you are from a different country what are the consequences of illegally immigrating to your country? Taking one at random, Mexico, the law of Mexico requires immediate incarceration, fine, and eventual deportation; after serving the time in a Mexican prison. Reciprocity anyone?

Randomly picked reference: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IMMIGRATION_RALLIES?SITE=7219&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-03-25-02-15-35

(Doesn't everyone love the "new and improved" linking method?)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 7:35:48 AM

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Shhh!!! Quiet!!! The Politically Correct police might hear you!!!

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 8:06:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Someone help me with this please? Confusion is raining in my pragmatic brain.

If you are in the country illegally how can you openly and VERY publicly protest about the consequences of your illegal action becoming more serious? How can the police that are being paid by citizen's taxes, protect versus verify, and if here illegally, collect them and taking them back across the border?

How can ANY person, especially the young "unmentionables", grow to respect any law with this example? The people may be immigrants looking for the "American Dream", but the bottom line is they are ILLEGAL immigrants. Amazingly they and their supporters don't argue that fact, they just don't think it's "fair".

Also, if you are from a different country what are the consequences of illegally immigrating to your country? Taking one at random, Mexico, the law of Mexico requires immediate incarceration, fine, and eventual deportation; after serving the time in a Mexican prison. Reciprocity anyone?

Randomly picked reference: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IMMIGRATION_RALLIES?SITE=7219&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-03-25-02-15-35

(Doesn't everyone love the "new and improved" linking method?)

Watched it! Even noticed how all three of the major cable news networks ''emphasized'' and ''over-exggerated'' the size of the crowd.

I chalk it up to selective enforcement of the law and both ''balless'' executive and judiciary branches. How much does anyone want to bet that the Senate votes against the ''felony'' bill the house just passed?

Merc.... thanks for shedding some light on this..

- The Ranger

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 9:03:03 AM

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Joined: 3/12/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Someone help me with this please? Confusion is raining in my pragmatic brain.

If you are in the country illegally how can you openly and VERY publicly protest about the consequences of your illegal action becoming more serious? How can the police that are being paid by citizen's taxes, protect versus verify, and if here illegally, collect them and taking them back across the border?

How can ANY person, especially the young "unmentionables", grow to respect any law with this example? The people may be immigrants looking for the "American Dream", but the bottom line is they are ILLEGAL immigrants. Amazingly they and their supporters don't argue that fact, they just don't think it's "fair".

Also, if you are from a different country what are the consequences of illegally immigrating to your country? Taking one at random, Mexico, the law of Mexico requires immediate incarceration, fine, and eventual deportation; after serving the time in a Mexican prison. Reciprocity anyone?

Randomly picked reference: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IMMIGRATION_RALLIES?SITE=7219&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-03-25-02-15-35

(Doesn't everyone love the "new and improved" linking method?)

The American revolution was illegal, was it fair? Japanese detention camps were legal, were they fair? McArthyism was legal, was it fair? The American constitution is crafted so that people can oppose to laws that they believe are unfair -- that is the essential point to freedom of expression. If I don't agree with something, be it my governments policy or its laws I can (and as a good citizen should) express my opinion and rally to change it. You conveniently forget your rhetoric and your history -- is fair more important than legal? is moral more important than legal? Ethical?

Also based on your logic how can the United State ever expect anyone to respect any of its laws? After all it, and they, were founded based on a series of illegal actions?

Finally while it isn't directly related to this conversation, I remember many years ago in high school having to memorize a quote from Lazarus that was on a French statue somewhere (forgive if not 100% accurate it has been many years):

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

As for reciprocity here is a short list of treaties where America has failed to meet the bar - NPT, opposition to the IIC, Convention of Kanagawa, Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, BWC, 'Freedom of the Sea laws' from 1930, Law of the Sea (1994), CTBT, Ottawa treaty (Landmine treaty), Kyoto protocol (but to be fair atleast the US government now recognizes what scientists the world over have had proof of for 30 years - global warming does exist!), and many many more. To use the reciprocity argument is i)Unethical and immoral ; ii)not relevant due to vastly different resources, structures and economies and; iii)as illustrated from the above list hypocritical.

Now the fact is none of this is very pragmatic unless you take the position that equality, fairness, freedom, common sense are the basis you want for the country you live in.

I just read my post and it seems somewhat vitriolic, I don't have time to rewrite it so please accept my apoligies for wording it badly, it isn't meant to be offensive.

< Message edited by TheTopHat -- 3/27/2006 9:08:54 AM >

_____________________________

TheTopHat (and Cane)

Just my 2.31 cents (In Canada you see)

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 9:09:41 AM

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You managed to link Kyoto protocol with illegal immigration, that makes no sence.

"The American constitution is crafted so that people can oppose to laws that they believe are unfair -- that is the essential point to freedom of expression" That is why we have the minutemen project because borer guards cant/wont do their jobs, and cops dont want to be bothered.

(in reply to TheTopHat)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 9:20:18 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

You managed to link Kyoto protocol with illegal immigration, that makes no sence.

"The American constitution is crafted so that people can oppose to laws that they believe are unfair -- that is the essential point to freedom of expression" That is why we have the minutemen project because borer guards cant/wont do their jobs, and cops dont want to be bothered.

I'll try and say it in plain English -- The United States has shown no commitment to reciprocity or 'fair play' in International relations. Everyone of those treaties are either unsigned, unratified or have exemptions from prosecution for the US, while the other parties to them have accepted them as being for the common good. So whenever the US claims an action is being done due to reciprocity the entire stance is hypocritical -- it is not an ideal or practice they recognize except when convenient.

_____________________________

TheTopHat (and Cane)

Just my 2.31 cents (In Canada you see)

(in reply to Moloch)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 10:41:40 AM

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Ok I understand that, but what does a Treaty has to do with illegal immigration? Maybe Im obtuse?

(in reply to TheTopHat)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 11:01:33 AM

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It's just typical equivalency arguments: We can't complain about anything someone else does because we are not perfect.

The reality is, a sovereign country still has the right to make and enforce its own laws. Anyone ready to complain about Afghanistan executing a man for converting to Christianity?

(in reply to Moloch)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 11:04:01 AM

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quote:

my governments policy or its laws I can (and as a good citizen should) express my opinion and rally to change it.

If the protesters were rallying in support of their ability to protest freely in the US, they'd be shouting "viva United States" versus "viva Mexico".

The American Revolution was a revolt against off shore rule. It also had a primary cause in the fact that the colonists were not given the same rights as the legal citizens of the British Empire. We were "Englishman" in name, paid taxes to England, but had different laws assigned. Where is the current comparison?

Your quote on the Statue of Liberty concerns LEGAL immigration. Your assigning the same status to illegal IS the problem. The lack of consistency. is consistent with the problem.

When is "fair" a "legal" requirement? Is it "fair" that people who can get relief from their pain though illegal medications such as marijuana can't? When 50 people fly by you on the highway doing 70+ MPH and you were pulled over for doing 68 MPH - fair?

No offense taken in your post. I'll even agree with some of your unrelated references to reciprocity. I'd refer to the tariffs assigned to US goods by other Countries compared to ours. Kyoto however does NOT apply. Not signing is not the same as signing and non complying. Consequences again are the difference. The Germans in WWII signed the Geneva Convention and therefor were convicted for not following it. The Japaneses didn't, ergo no war crimes trial in post WW II Japan. The Filipinos, Koreans, Chinese, and others who died in their camps didn't get their day in court as did those persecuted by the Germans.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 3/27/2006 11:06:14 AM >

(in reply to TheTopHat)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 11:50:08 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

my governments policy or its laws I can (and as a good citizen should) express my opinion and rally to change it.

If the protesters were rallying in support of their ability to protest freely in the US, they'd be shouting "viva United States" versus "viva Mexico".

The American Revolution was a revolt against off shore rule. It also had a primary cause in the fact that the colonists were not given the same rights as the legal citizens of the British Empire. We were "Englishman" in name, paid taxes to England, but had different laws assigned. Where is the current comparison?

Your quote on the Statue of Liberty concerns LEGAL immigration. Your assigning the same status to illegal IS the problem. The lack of consistency. is consistent with the problem.

When is "fair" a "legal" requirement? Is it "fair" that people who can get relief from their pain though illegal medications such as marijuana can't? When 50 people fly by you on the highway doing 70+ MPH and you were pulled over for doing 68 MPH - fair?

No offense taken in your post. I'll even agree with some of your unrelated references to reciprocity. I'd refer to the tariffs assigned to US goods by other Countries compared to ours. Kyoto however does NOT apply. Not signing is not the same as signing and non complying. Consequences again are the difference. The Germans in WWII signed the Geneva Convention and therefor were convicted for not following it. The Japaneses didn't, ergo no war crimes trial in post WW II Japan. The Filipinos, Koreans, Chinese, and others who died in their camps didn't get their day in court as did those persecuted by the Germans.

Wow I just stirred something up! Okay will come back and answer some of the sillier comments later (not in reference to your post). But one quick point - the illegal mexican labour work here, with no rights and no protections from the law (minimum wage, safety standards etc.), now while I acknowledge it is not a direct correlation that sounds similar to your reference about Englishman without the rights (as to taxes a fair argument can be made to the illegal immigrants contribution to the economy).

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think they should be given carte blanche access to the US. The idea however of restricting their ability to speak out, or using their protesting as a method of gathering information weakens the entire system. Citizen or not, resident or not, restricting their speech (or creating a situation where by speaking out they are immediately expelled) hurts the rights of all concerned. It's a case of 'I mat not agree with what you say, but I fight to the death your right to say it' (can't remember author). After all doesn't the US have enough problems with 'free speech' without finding another way with which to impinge upon it?

_____________________________

TheTopHat (and Cane)

Just my 2.31 cents (In Canada you see)

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 12:05:51 PM

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quote:

But one quick point - the illegal mexican labour work here, with no rights and no protections from the law (minimum wage, safety standards etc.), now while I acknowledge it is not a direct correlation that sounds similar to your reference about Englishman without the rights (as to taxes a fair argument can be made to the illegal immigrants contribution to the economy).

Just so this doesn't get into a "have - have not" debate. I'd enact and enforce at the same level of consequence laws addressing the people who hire these illegals. That would run the gamut from those getting their lawn cut for $2/hour to Tyson hiring $ 0.25 per chicken 'chicken plucker' in Arkansas.

There would be no illegal immigrants without an illegal market for them. However, those fighting against their 'exploitation' would see their goal accomplished by the law that is contemplated. They can't be 'exploited' if they can't get here.

(in reply to TheTopHat)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 12:36:57 PM

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quote:

There would be no illegal immigrants without an illegal market for them. However, those fighting against their 'exploitation' would see their goal accomplished by the law that is contemplated. They can't be 'exploited' if they can't get here.

Exactly. This is the key to the whole crisis. I think a madatory five-year-sentence for the first offense would send a pretty good message.

- The Ranger

PS - What did I tell ya..... a bunch of ''balless'' old men in the Senate
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/us/immigration

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 3/27/2006 12:56:18 PM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 1:30:28 PM

Pavel

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Partly off topic, there were war crimes trials held in Japan after the end of the second world war. They were called somthing like the International Military Tribunal for the Far East (as done by Americans, there were separate trials held by the Soviets and the Chinese). There's some questions as to if they went far enough, given that many people who very well could have been brought before this tribunal were not prosecuted, in exchange for their cooperation with the occupational authorities.

Actually on topic, I just think it's daft that we let these people openly break the law. If you're going to have a law, enforce it. By not enforceing the law, you only undermine your own authority.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 1:45:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheTopHat
The American constitution is crafted so that people can oppose to laws that they believe are unfair -- that is the essential point to freedom of expression. If I don't agree with something, be it my governments policy or its laws I can (and as a good citizen should) express my opinion and rally to change it.

Agreed but..........welcome to California. The citizenry overwhelmingly voted to oppose giving legal rights (including school and medical care, paid for by the legal taxpayers of the state, including legal immigrants) to illegal immigrants flooding in from Mexico. The courts overturned the vote.

(in reply to TheTopHat)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 2:29:16 PM

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This is proof that what they want is cheap labor, not tighter security.

What else really needs to be said?

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 2:34:17 PM

Gauge

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I did say somewhere that I don't like politics... didn't I?

Anyway, I saw something in the news about humanitarian aid stations for people crossing the Mexican border illegally. They apparently provide water and some other things that I don't remember. I remember sitting there and gawking at my television but at the same time being torn also. I understand that crossing the border can be a dangerous and life threatening thing and humanitarian aid could spell the difference between life or death... but I also know that if these people entered the country legally they wouldn't have to worry about things like that.
What is right and what is wrong is at issue, not what is moral because morals cannot be clearly defined from individual to individual. Call this what it is: Illegal. Don't try to put lipstick on a pig and call it a super model. It is time to spit into the politically correct faces and demand enforcement of these laws. Cracking down on illegal immigration will hurt the economy some because we will all end up paying more for our goods and services because industry and business use these people as slave labor. That isn't right that they are treated that way but I didn't bring them into this country illegally... I don't have an obligation morally or otherwise to provide safe haven for these people. They made a choice and they must live with that choice. I am sick to death of the bleeding hearts that cry out for someone entering the country illegally. Do it the correct way and there would be no issue to protest to begin with. These people would have the same privileges and rights that any citizen would have and would therefore be PROTECTED from abuses that are heaped upon them currently. Deport people that illegally enter the United States. Let them enter legally. Let them become citizens of this country. Let them really enjoy the American dream. Uggg.... Another topic to get me worked up about. God I love these boards!

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 3:11:46 PM

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quote:

LOS ANGELES - Tens of thousands of students walked out of school in California and other states Monday, waving flags and chanting slogans in a second week of protests against legislation to crack down on illegal immigrants.

By midmorning, the protests had spread to downtown, where hundreds of students walked the streets and chanted. The boycott had the tacit approval of school officials in some of the heavily Hispanic downtown schools, where word was passed through hall posters and public address systems.

In some areas, teachers and administrators walked with students "as a safety measure," Carazo said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060327/ap_on_re_us/immigration_rallies

Hearing these students interviewed confirms every worst case belief about the failure of the educational system in general and Los Angeles in particular. I predict there will be no protests tomorrow - rain is in the forecast and on those days the students decided it's better to stay in class. They'll resume on Friday so they'll have a 3 day weekend - forecast is clear skies with temperatures in the 70's. And why the hell not?

There is no enforcement of the law. The police are "escorting" them, not rounding them up and sending them back to the school. The school administrators join them, or hold the doors open, wave, and shout out; "have a nice day!". What a fine example of leadership and commitment to the law. Who can blame them the students? There is no threat of repercussion. Today they decided it would be; "fun to walk on the freeway!"

Ultimately, selective law enforcement comes with consequence. One big one may be that outside of 25 miles inland of the Pacific and the Atlantic, and everything south of Washington DC; people are getting a tad upset at the images on their TV. If you think that images of Vietnam had an impact, how about seeing people, who are admittedly in the US illegally, protesting for their "rights"? Who would appeal to them? A Kennedy, Clinton, Reagan type or someone brining a rule of law, tough, pragmatic, 'charismatic'; "I'll bring discipline and put things in order!" leader.

Putting aside the children's crusade; fighting for a day off, and to avoid taking the California High School exit exam; where is the logic of the left? Amazingly even the most knowledgeable protesters are fighting for the "rights" of illegal immigrants to come to the US to be exploited. No signs say "amnesty" as was previously given a few years ago to 'solve' the immigration crisis. It's clear that the protests against the new law are fighting for the right to make below minimum wage. Fighting to pay into the social security system money they will never see. As a businessman, maybe I'm on the wrong side of this issue.

Edited to add:
Wonder who would be "at fault" and held liable if a riot breaks out and a student from one of these schools is hurt or killed? Wondering, if as a parent with a student attending one of these schools are you concerned? Wondering if it will be covered when it rains tomorrow and kids are back in school if the civics lesson is taught that they are protesting at LA City Hall regarding a FEDERAL pending statute?

Not really wondering at all.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 3/27/2006 3:27:34 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 3:44:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
Cracking down on illegal immigration will hurt the economy some because we will all end up paying more for our goods and services because industry and business use these people as slave labor.

And what is your position on off-shoring labor and off-shore tax havens? Bring the labor here, pay for it over there - what's the difference to Walmart? Do business here, claim headquarters are on Cayman Islands - pay less in taxes...profit!

These issues are related. Bullshit stuff like paying for an illegal's education and medical bills is a drop in the bucket compared to bigger issues.

You want to alter the face of America? Gut the military budget.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to Gauge)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 3:54:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
Cracking down on illegal immigration will hurt the economy some because we will all end up paying more for our goods and services because industry and business use these people as slave labor.

And what is your position on off-shoring labor and off-shore tax havens? Bring the labor here, pay for it over there - what's the difference to Walmart? Do business here, claim headquarters are on Cayman Islands - pay less in taxes...profit!

These issues are related. Bullshit stuff like paying for an illegal's education and medical bills is a drop in the bucket compared to bigger issues.

You want to alter the face of America? Gut the military budget.

When off-shore taxes are up for legislation or the military budget is protested we know where you stand.

Regarding the current House Bill 4437 where are you; supporting the exploitation or for enforcement of legal immigration?

(in reply to Chaingang)

RE: Legally Illegal? - 3/27/2006 4:28:45 PM

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Sorry Merc, I mainly see it as a distraction as compared to other issues. [Sidebar: My hot button is abortion and I usually vote accordingly - but it is also a side issue, a mere distraction.]

The closest I can come to answering you directly is to say I am in favor of increased national security but not at the expense of the rights of American citizens. Illegals are here already, but I have no problem with tightening the borders - if that's really what they are going to do. And I'd rather have our military patrolling the border than fighting in either Iraq or Afghanistan.

But they won't do it and here's why: illegal drugs and munitions dealing.

If you've ever been to visit anyone in prison you may know that they search you pretty well going in. The inmates are searched rather thoroughly themselves - even stripped and cavity searched. So given that our prisons are all awash in illegal drugs - where do they come from? Could it be the guards that are paid barely better than subsistence wages? Perish the thought...

=)

So why won't they tighten the borders for real? Money. Someone is making beaucoup $$$ out of arms and drug dealing and who they are might surprise the hell out of you. The reason we have such harsh laws about such things is merely that they hate competition - and competitors go to jail.

The country has one foot in the grave and it's not because of illegal immigrants or whether or not we have legal abortions. It's really more about the fact that something to the tune of 40% plus of the federal budget is blown out the window at military expenses. How's that for excess federal employees and expenses?

The second largest issue basically boils down to the rights of the individual versus those of the corporation.

They say the first part of our legal history was the states versus the federal govt. The second part was supposedly about the individual versus the state. I'd say we are seeing a continuation of that with an extra heavy emphasis on the laws pertaining to corporations as individuals (an equation I oppose BTW). That's what's really at issue.

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 3/27/2006 4:29:45 PM >

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

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