RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice?

RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (Full Version)

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NorthernGent -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 2:07:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika I've often heard/read, in relation to BDSM and other things related to sexual desires, people stating that they didn't chose a certain path -- being dominant, submissive, switch, vanilla, sado, maso, poly, gay, straight, bi, trans, etc.-- but that it chose them. Now I'm willing to accept that we might not necessarily chose our desires, but I do think that we are making an active choice when we seek out the relationships that we do. I actually have a hard time accepting that an able mind and bodied mature individual living in the Western World feels they aren't actively chosing their sexual, gender or kink orientation. But if I'm starting this thread, it is to hear your ideas and thoughts on the subject. - LA Take homosexuality as an example: during the Greek civilisation homosexuality was on an equal footing and was widespread; in western society when homosexuality was illegal it was perhaps not so widespread; today - as homsexuality has become accepted - it seems to be more widespread. And then there is the evidence that during protracted wars where men do not have access to women - men (who otherwise would consider themselves to be straight) have indulged in sexual activities with men. So there is a case there to suggest that homosexuality could indeed be a choice depending upon the prevailing attitude of the day. And not having the urge to have sex with men could quite easily be a result of the ideas of the day - humans adapt to their environment in all sorts of ways so why would sexuality be any different? The idea that we have a choice in all areas of our lives apart from our sexuality seems contrary to me. It's comforting because we can hold on to the idea of an enduring self (thereby affording personal stability) while allowing ourselves the luxury of believing we can change our situation in order to achieve. Great discussion topic by the way - shame we lack sufficient knowledge of the human mind to enable us to draw a conclusion.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 2:09:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: texangael However, there is an important distinction between orientation (desire) and behavior (action): while we cannot choose our desires, we always choose our actions. Thanks for chiming in! I appreciate your whole contribution, especially this part. - LA

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 2:15:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Take homosexuality as an example: during the Greek civilisation homosexuality was on an equal footing and was widespread; in western society when homosexuality was illegal it was perhaps not so widespread; today - as homsexuality has become accepted - it seems to be more widespread. Are you sure this is really true? Any statistics collected on the prevalence of homosexuality where it is illegal, for example, may well be distorted by the fact of its illegality-while it's possible that there may be less open practice of homosexuality in repressive societies, does that really have any bearing on the prevalence of the actual orientation?

LadyAngelika -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 2:23:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Take homosexuality as an example: during the Greek civilisation homosexuality was on an equal footing and was widespread; But it wasn't considered homosexuality back then. The origin of the word homosexuality dates from the late 10th century only. Anthropologists theorise that in ancient Greece, men who would go on to marry women would analy sodomise younger male, often those they were mentoring. There are also native tribes, specifically in regions of Africa, where young warriors suck off tribe chiefs as a right of passage, thinking that swallowing the semen of a great warrior will give them power. quote: in western society when homosexuality was illegal it was perhaps not so widespread; Well it was clandestine, but definitely, many refrained because of the fear of being caught. It is like that in most countries where homosexuality is illegal. Think of it, if you were a gay Ugandan, would you risk your life? Some would, probably for love. quote: today - as homsexuality has become accepted It has? Well ok, not to be completely sarcastic, there is still much social stigma. quote: - it seems to be more widespread. The seems comes from what the media is willing to focus on I think, though I agree that it is definitely easier to be gay today then even 15 years ago. quote: And then there is the evidence that during protracted wars where men do not have access to women - men (who otherwise would consider themselves to be straight) have indulged in sexual activities with men. So there is a case there to suggest that homosexuality could indeed be a choice depending upon the prevailing attitude of the day. And not having the urge to have sex with men could quite easily be a result of the ideas of the day - humans adapt to their environment in all sorts of ways so why would sexuality be any different? That was my example about prison. Some men go into prison heterosexual and walk out prefering relationships with men because they have accustomed to it. quote: The idea that we have a choice in all areas of our lives apart from our sexuality seems contrary to me. Me too. But then I've identified by bias in that my sexuality and my kink are flexible. quote: It's comforting because we can hold on to the idea of an enduring self (thereby affording personal stability) while allowing ourselves the luxury of believing we can change our situation in order to achieve. That makes a whole lot of sense. quote: Great discussion topic by the way - shame we lack sufficient knowledge of the human mind to enable us to draw a conclusion. Thanks. And I think it has some to do with brain and much to do with instincts. - LA

LafayetteLady -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 2:28:38 PM)
deleted because unlike my sexual orientation or my gender, which are not choices, the choice to ignore LA's posts which contrary to popular beliefe are not "thought provoking" but rather her clear desire to see her own words in type is a choice.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 2:32:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika I've often heard/read, in relation to BDSM and other things related to sexual desires, people stating that they didn't chose a certain path -- being dominant, submissive, switch, vanilla, sado, maso, poly, gay, straight, bi, trans, etc.-- but that it chose them. Now I'm willing to accept that we might not necessarily chose our desires, but I do think that we are making an active choice when we seek out the relationships that we do. I actually have a hard time accepting that an able mind and bodied mature individual living in the Western World feels they aren't actively chosing their sexual, gender or kink orientation. But if I'm starting this thread, it is to hear your ideas and thoughts on the subject. - LA I didn't choose to be dominant or bisexual, or to express my primary mental gender in collusion with the physical gender that I was born with -- but I -did- choose how I would behave and interact in different situations. I have chosen whether to be active or passive in my behavior, to be open or circumspect, to participate or not. While I -am- what I -am-, I have, indubitably, chosen how I would be -perceived- and how I would interact and encourage others' interaction with me. For example, I will happily admit that I worked hard practicing to be ambisexterous and open-minded. While it seems completely logical to me that people are inherently born and trained before they can rationalize to be canalized to certain attitudes and behaviors, I also think that we have a choice, as functioning human beings, to determine whether acting in given ways will further the goals that we've set for ourselves.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 2:34:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady But you might try to not take the position that people who see through the stupidity lack the reading comprehension to understand you, or that you have suffered any kind of reasonable discrimination remotely close to any marginalized group. Only the similarly deluded will agree with you. I don't know whether or not you saw this, but Stella did re-read the OP, after which she retracted her first post.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 2:35:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady But you might try to not take the position that people who see through the stupidity lack the reading comprehension to understand you, or that you have suffered any kind of reasonable discrimination remotely close to any marginalized group. Only the similarly deluded will agree with you. I don't know whether or not you saw this, but Stella did re-read the OP, after which she retracted her first post. I did see it and I dont' retract my opinion of LA's insulting or ignorance regarding people who disagree with her or the concept that she put forth.

dreamerdreaming -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 2:39:24 PM)
If we could all just choose our orientations, some might choose differently. But some stuff really is a part of our genetic makeup. We can stray away from it to a point, but then there's a point when we'd just be fighting against our own selves, and that's not productive. I'm sure if I'd been born with a genetic predisposition to be primarily gay, and was fighting it, at some point my mother would sit me down and say "look here, Darling, you weren't born to spend your life turning your back on your own true self. Do what feels right, or feels more right, to you." There are some ways to be, that just feel more comfy than other ways, to us. I was practically born slave, since I don't remember any other way of being, since I was a tiny little girl. So I embraced it. I went there and did that, in spades. I'm very glad I did, because it was wonderful. But people do grow and change, and I've been on the D side of the slash for a few years now because this feels right for me, now. It was a conscious decision based on how my feelings had changed. It was a new way of feeling that just happened naturally to me, but I did choose to act on those feelings. So yes, we do choose our orientation, to a certain extent. But for those whom a certain sexual or gender orientation is genetically part of their makeup, presumably fighting that would be counterproductive, and wouldn't feel as right as embracing it. In summation: we are all in charge of our own thoughts, feelings and actions. The ones we want to promote and reinforce, we do. But our genetic characteristics have a lot of bearing on that. We're not likely going to want to be ways that don't feel comfortable, or right for us. So the ways that feel better to us are the ones we'll likely embrace and reinforce. As we change and grow, we may feel more comfy exploring other options- or not.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 2:39:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady But you might try to not take the position that people who see through the stupidity lack the reading comprehension to understand you, or that you have suffered any kind of reasonable discrimination remotely close to any marginalized group. Only the similarly deluded will agree with you. I don't know whether or not you saw this, but Stella did re-read the OP, after which she retracted her first post. I did see it and I dont' retract my opinion of LA's insulting or ignorance regarding people who disagree with her or the concept that she put forth. Ok-I was just checking. That's your prerogative, I guess. I disagree with you, but I don't massively want to start an argument with you. I think that LA's first post could possibly have been better worded (maybe with more of an emphasis on the distinction between desires and actions?). I don't think for a minute, however, that she was being deliberately insulting.

NorthernGent -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 2:45:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious while it's possible that there may be less open practice of homosexuality in repressive societies, does that really have any bearing on the prevalence of the actual orientation? It's possible that the incidence of homosexuality occurs less in repressive societies (open or otherwise) - and were this the case it certainly would hold implications for the OP. Difficult to obtain data - granted.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 2:47:52 PM)
quote: I didn't choose to be dominant or bisexual, or to express my primary mental gender in collusion with the physical gender that I was born with -- but I -did- choose how I would behave and interact in different situations. I have chosen whether to be active or passive in my behavior, to be open or circumspect, to participate or not. While I -am- what I -am-, I have, indubitably, chosen how I would be -perceived- and how I would interact and encourage others' interaction with me. For example, I will happily admit that I worked hard practicing to be ambisexterous and open-minded. While it seems completely logical to me that people are inherently born and trained before they can rationalize to be canalized to certain attitudes and behaviors, I also think that we have a choice, as functioning human beings, to determine whether acting in given ways will further the goals that we've set for ourselves. I very much appreciate this post Calla. Thank you. - LA

LadyAngelika -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 2:52:48 PM)
quote: I think that LA's first post could possibly have been better worded (maybe with more of an emphasis on the distinction between desires and actions?). I don't think for a minute, however, that she was being deliberately insulting. You are right on the nose again, Ms. Smart Cookie ;-) Someone said that later on and I acknowledged that. In fact, I also said that I might see the world this way because of my "flexible" bias. The bottom line is that some people have a predefined notion of me and will always be hostile to anything I write. That is when I invoke the ignore button. Doesn't do much good when you quote them though! ;-) - LA

juliaoceania -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 3:04:23 PM)
quote: The thread really brought home to me that not everyone is flexible, and that a lack of flexibility isn't the same as prejudice or closed-mindedness; it's just wiring. I think this is worth highlighting and very interesting too.. just because one isn't flexible within their own wiring doesn't mean we are inflexible towards others... I am bicurious, but not so much so I would seek to switch sides on my own.. perhaps to please a lover I would, but he isn't interested at this point

domiguy -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 3:23:59 PM)
I have a hard time believing a lot of this that I am reading....You think you have a choice in the way you conduct your life? You might have the possibility to make some small changes but much of who and what you are is determined right there in the womb. If you have suffered some sort of abuse or severe trauma then these events could alter your perceptions of yourself as well as how you perceive the outside world. Why would anyone want to be gay? There is a thread where Uganda has criminalized homosexuality. No problem. Everyone will simply stop being gay. Right? Why are some people serious and others funny? You think that a type A personality is created? What about people that have the "gift" to write music or paint? If I took lessons for the next ten years I could never be able to create a decent painting or song. It does not mean that you are anymore "openminded" if you are bisexual. it simply is what it is. If you are bisexual and so openminded than why don't you simply "choose" to enjoy broccoli or raw oysters? That's right it doesn't work that way. People!

NorthernGent -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 3:30:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy Why would anyone want to be gay? I'd imagine that there are a whole raft of incentives. For instance having your cock sucked is always useful (particularly when in dire need) and belonging to a community is good for the soul. Seems we see it differently - I'd say you can be anything you want to be - it's ambition that dictates your path (and even ambition can be changed where you spend time learning from the right people).

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 3:32:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy I have a hard time believing a lot of this that I am reading....You think you have a choice in the way you conduct your life? You might have the possibility to make some small changes but much of who and what you are is determined right there in the womb. If you have suffered some sort of abuse or severe trauma then these events could alter your perceptions of yourself as well as how you perceive the outside world. Why would anyone want to be gay? There is a thread where Uganda has criminalized homosexuality. No problem. Everyone will simply stop being gay. Right? That's where the difference between desires and actions comes in-I, for example, can't stop being (mostly) gay, but I could choose to stop sleeping with women. The fact that I don't live in Uganda means that I don't have to. quote: It does not mean that you are anymore "openminded" if you are bisexual. it simply is what it is. If you are bisexual and so openminded than why don't you simply "choose" to enjoy broccoli or raw oysters? I said prettymuch that a few posts ago. LA agreed with me. She even called me a smart cookie for saying it! [:D] PS I do like raw oysters :-P

Rochsub2009 -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 3:35:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika quote: I think that LA's first post could possibly have been better worded (maybe with more of an emphasis on the distinction between desires and actions?). I don't think for a minute, however, that she was being deliberately insulting. The bottom line is that some people have a predefined notion of me and will always be hostile to anything I write. That is when I invoke the ignore button. Doesn't do much good when you quote them though! ;-) i'll just add a comment here in hopes of keeping the peace. It is obvious that Lady Lafayette isn't a fan of Lady Angelika. i used to enjoy saying "cat fight" each time Lady Lafayette would enter a thread that Lady Angelika started. But at this point, it is just getting old. Lady Lafayette, we understand that you and Lady Angelika will never sit down to have tea and biscuits. But do you have to enter each of her threads with weapons drawn? It often derails the thread. Moreover, saying "cat fight" just isn't funny anymore. You're forcing me to come up with new comedic material. [8\|]

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 3:39:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009 Moreover, saying "cat fight" just isn't funny anymore. You're forcing me to come up with new comedic material. [8\|] [hijack] Handbags at dawn! [/hijack]

juliaoceania -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 3:44:48 PM)
quote: For instance having your cock sucked is always useful You mistake an act of homosexuality out of convenience with being homosexual.. the two are not synonymous

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