RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice?

RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (Full Version)

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domiguy -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:38:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I am not trying to be a know-it-all here... I just see a big diff between an action and an orientation. Which I think is the whole point of the thread, no? (The difference, not the status of your knowledgeability...:-P) If that is the purpose of the thread than the OP is horribly inept at stating her point. Anyone can choose to do anything...I can sing opera, I will just be God Fucking awful...and no one would consider me to be an opera singer.... I guess I could even suck dick for the right motivation...I would still be straight. Is that the whole purpose of this thread is whether we are capable of doing things that are not true to our nature? Yeah, we are capable of doing such things...Now what? Doesn't change who you are.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:40:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent It is noticeable that gay women holding hands while shopping etc is increasing - and as far as I can see people aren't batting an eyelid. Really? I wouldn't say this has been my experience. quote: For gay men - I don't see any antagonism towards them - men are what you could call being camp while they're shopping etc and from what I can see no one is batting an eyelid Again, not my experience-I've seen faintly camp men who I know to be straight get shouted at in the street for being 'batty boys' or whatever. quote: I'd imagine similar to the US in that the big cities are more tolerant than the villages out in the sticks. I live in Bristol (big city, reputation for being liberal), and I used to live pretty near London. Maybe you don't see it because you aren't looking for it, or something (?) But it's definitely there...

NorthernGent -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:41:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level Exactly. If two men were to kiss in public here, they might be, at the very least, verbally abused. Women too. Something's just come to me here.....I work in a small town....and at the train station there are a couple of young lasses who wait for their train about the same time as me and spend a good old 10 minutes kissing one another into a coma. Anyway - as you'd imagine - there are a few interested spectators but no comments in their direction nor any show of hostility - just a passing curiosity. Now were it two men then I'd imagine it would be different. I've seen men holding hands in Manchester doing their shopping and not a word mentioned - but I don't think the wider public are ready for men kissing - but it's coming in Manchester - give it 5 years or so.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:45:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RCdc Hi VC I just guess we come from completely different areas of the UK and it's entirely different. Our answers wouldn't be the same where we are to yours, more like NGs. I haven't seen reports of gay motivated murders in the news for a very long time for one. Young people are definately more open to homosexuality and bisexual relationships. My son(17) has two gay/trans friends and my daughter has a female bi bestfriend(15) and all are out at college and school without any issues of bullying etc. I believe that the older generation of homosexual peeps probably have more problems than people my childrens age because they are learning that it's not such a taboo subject anymore. Maybe it's an age thing. Julia. It was made legal in the UK to have homosexual sex in 1967. 21 was the age restriction but that has since altered to 16. the.dark. I think it does depend on where you live, and also a lot on social class in your area. On the subject of gay murders, this is the first recent link that came up on google; the murder took place in July 2008 but I'm sure I can remember more recent ones. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/young-gay-proud-murdered-the-hairdresser-battered-to-death-1630322.html

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:46:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I am not trying to be a know-it-all here... I just see a big diff between an action and an orientation. Which I think is the whole point of the thread, no? (The difference, not the status of your knowledgeability...:-P) If that is the purpose of the thread than the OP is horribly inept at stating her point. Anyone can choose to do anything...I can sing opera, I will just be God Fucking awful...and no one would consider me to be an opera singer.... I guess I could even suck dick for the right motivation...I would still be straight. Is that the whole purpose of this thread is whether we are capable of doing things that are not true to our nature? Yeah, we are capable of doing such things...Now what? Doesn't change who you are. Not the original purpose of the thread, maybe, but it did come out as a strong theme... My fault for not wording clearly enough there.

RCdc -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:47:39 PM)
I have lived central london, east end and now in essex. The only time I have ever encountered homosexual taunting to a degree of bullying, is when my sons teacher called me to tell me about an incident at school about 5 years ago, where my son stood between a small crowd of children and another boy who they were taunting for being 'gay'. He confronted them and demanded them to explain what was wrong with being gay. I was ultra proud of him for that. That was in Cornwall in a medium sized school out of town/city. It happens, but no more than any other kind of bullying or picking on - like racism or being female or being disabled. the.dark.

NorthernGent -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:50:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious I live in Bristol (big city, reputation for being liberal), and I used to live pretty near London. Maybe you don't see it because you aren't looking for it, or something (?) But it's definitely there... I'm one of those people who is curious about how people interact and react to certain situations - I would most certainly spot any show of hostility. Manchester seems to be a place where gay men don't shun what thay are and I think this helps - you know what the mob are like - the more you hide the more they're on your back. Edited to add: I've been in Manchester for 13 years or so and never seen 'gay-bashing' reported in the local newspapers. Not saying this proves it doesn't happen but it suggests that it's rare.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:51:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RCdc I have lived central london, east end and now in essex. The only time I have ever encountered homosexual taunting to a degree of bullying, is when my sons teacher called me to tell me about an incident at school about 5 years ago, where my son stood between a small crowd of children and another boy who they were taunting for being 'gay'. He confronted them and demanded them to explain what was wrong with being gay. I was ultra proud of him for that. That was in Cornwall in a medium sized school out of town/city. It happens, but no more than any other kind of bullying or picking on - like racism or being female or being disabled. the.dark. At my school the out lesbians (never the bisexual girls, so it was never me) would get the buttons ripped off their shirts on a regular basis. At the boys' school down the road a friend of mine who was pretty camp was driven to self harm by the constant taunting. I am very glad that your son's school has a better atmosphere-and I am sure that schools like that do exist. But that wasn't my experience.

Level -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:51:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Level Exactly. If two men were to kiss in public here, they might be, at the very least, verbally abused. Women too. Something's just come to me here.....I work in a small town....and at the train station there are a couple of young lasses who wait for their train about the same time as me and spend a good old 10 minutes kissing one another into a coma. Anyway - as you'd imagine - there are a few interested spectators but no comments in their direction nor any show of hostility - just a passing curiosity. Now were it two men then I'd imagine it would be different. I've seen men holding hands in Manchester doing their shopping and not a word mentioned - but I don't think the wider public are ready for men kissing - but it's coming in Manchester - give it 5 years or so. Here in small town Texas, we're still at the "be gay if you're gonna be gay, don't do it in public" stage, for the most part. We're much less advanced in that way, sadly.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:53:15 PM)
Domiguy said: quote: Is that the whole purpose of this thread is whether we are capable of doing things that are not true to our nature? When I read the OP, it seemed to me that the "purpose" of the thread was to figure out whether, in fact, people who were conscious, thinking adults would insist that they are, essentially, 'trapped' by the accident of their genetics, unable to decide for themselves how to live and how to present themselves in the world because they were born homosexual, dominant, etc. Just my take.

RCdc -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:53:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious I think it does depend on where you live, and also a lot on social class in your area. On the subject of gay murders, this is the first recent link that came up on google; the murder took place in July 2008 but I'm sure I can remember more recent ones. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/young-gay-proud-murdered-the-hairdresser-battered-to-death-1630322.html I do agree that where you live matters. My cousin lives in Bristol (that's SWAMP isnt it?) and I have honestly never come across it to the extent that it's prevalent, but then I have never lived there, only visited. One specific gay murder since 2008 is a small percentage in comparrison to the murders that occur everyday for different reasons, like being in a gang or being asian or a child - like you get in the east end. the.dark.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:56:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RCdc I do agree that where you live matters. My cousin lives in Bristol (that's SWAMP isnt it?) and I have honestly never come across it to the extent that it's prevalent. One specific gay murder since 2008 is a small percentage in comparrison to the murders that occur everyday for different reasons, like being in a gang or being asian or a child - like you get in the east end. the.dark. I'm not saying that it is massively prevalent; you said you couldn't remember seeing any on the news so I found you one, that's all. I don't really want to discuss this any more, if I'm honest; it's almost bedtime and this is making me sad. Think we can agree that our experiences differ and stop?

NorthernGent -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 5:02:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy Doesn't change who you are. Really? Well how do you judge someone? On their actions or what they say?

RCdc -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 5:04:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious At my school the out lesbians (never the bisexual girls, so it was never me) would get the buttons ripped off their shirts on a regular basis. At the boys' school down the road a friend of mine who was pretty camp was driven to self harm by the constant taunting. I am very glad that your son's school has a better atmosphere-and I am sure that schools like that do exist. But that wasn't my experience. It's so weird isn't it? Just how different places are. When I was a child and teen growing up in the east end, there was definately a gay 'area'. My family is like watching a film about the 'krays'[:D]... and I remember the gay hairdresser who used to do all my mum and aunts hair and we kids used to sit and drink orange squash out of those little plastic cartons with a straw - I remember it was the only place you could get it other than the cinema! And in the summer, he used to give us those straws filled with strawberry milkshake... you know 'Watchout theres a humphrey about'? and it was just accepted, even to the extent when he was targeted it was 'dealt with' (lordy don't ask[;)]) and that targeting NEVER happened again. It wasn't because the man was gay that he was 'protected' - but because he was seen as a decent human being who looked after everyones mums. And in walthemstow, ya just didn't mess with peoples mums.[:D] the.dark.

intenze -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 5:08:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RCdc Young people are definately more open to homosexuality and bisexual relationships. My son(17) has two gay/trans friends and my daughter has a female bi bestfriend(15) and all are out at college and school without any issues of bullying etc. I believe that the older generation of homosexual peeps probably have more problems than people my childrens age because they are learning that it's not such a taboo subject anymore. Maybe it's an age thing. the.dark. I agree, the same is true at the place I teach, and it is in rural Iowa, US. Most students just don't have an issue with it.

pyroaquatic -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 5:10:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy Why would anyone want to be gay? I'd imagine that there are a whole raft of incentives. For instance having your cock sucked is always useful (particularly when in dire need) and belonging to a community is good for the soul. Seems we see it differently - I'd say you can be anything you want to be - it's ambition that dictates your path (and even ambition can be changed where you spend time learning from the right people). "I'd say you can be anything you want to be." Come on. I want to sing opera. It will never happen. I couldn't be northerngent anymore than you could be domiguy. It doesn't work that way. Our brains will not allow that to happen. I have always been partial to brown eyes. It didn't come from an event or choice it always has just "been." It isn't mandatory but it is a preference. However, the brown eyes have to be in the skull of a woman. I have never in my life noticed those dazzling brown eyes of Denzel Washington. Denzel don't do shit for the Domiguy. So why are not all brown eyes equal? I find it kind of disgusting that people simply break down sexual preference as a matter of choice. It totally undermines what people have fought for with such great passion and determination. No one puts out that kind of a fight over broccoli. There are plenty of other green vegetables that will do in it's stead. For many it just isn't the easy choice of switching teams. They didn't sign up for it but they are only going to play for only one team for the rest of their lives. For most ...It's not a choice. It is a choice. We make conscious choices every day. They are accumulative, too. Once a choice is made, I can never undo the choice. It has been done. The most wonderful thing I can say about choice is that we are all affected by the choice of another. An individual across affects me. And vice versa. That is all I will say at this time. :D

RCdc -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 5:11:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious I'm not saying that it is massively prevalent; you said you couldn't remember seeing any on the news so I found you one, that's all. I don't really want to discuss this any more, if I'm honest; it's almost bedtime and this is making me sad. Think we can agree that our experiences differ and stop? Aw VC - no need to feel sad. I complete agree with you that it's probably far more to do with specific areas or pockets of communities where it happens and that our experiences just differ. Try not to feel sad - things are improving and for my childrens generation, I love that they can all be so open and free - thats something to really proud about. I'm cool about not discussing it anymore... it's all groovy![:)] the.dark.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 5:13:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RCdc quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious I'm not saying that it is massively prevalent; you said you couldn't remember seeing any on the news so I found you one, that's all. I don't really want to discuss this any more, if I'm honest; it's almost bedtime and this is making me sad. Think we can agree that our experiences differ and stop? Aw VC - no need to feel sad. I complete agree with you that it's probably far more to do with specific areas or pockets of communities where it happens and that our experiences just differ. Try not to feel sad - things are improving and for my childrens generation, I love that they can all be so open and free - thats something to really proud about. I'm cool about not discussing it anymore... it's all groovy![:)] the.dark. Thankyou-don't get me wrong, this isn't something that bothers me on a daily basis-I just find thinking about it a bit stressful. I have a hot water bottle now, though, so I'm feeling better. [:)]

LadyAngelika -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 5:24:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Vendaval Greetings Lady Agelika, Good to see you back on CM and posting again. As with any nature/nurture question I feel both create my path in life and relationships. Thanks! It is good to see you again as well. For the record, how we get our desires, nature vs nurture isn't even so much the issue that I wanted to bring up, though it does seem to have taken that slant, hasn't it! - LA

domiguy -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 5:27:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy Doesn't change who you are. Really? Well how do you judge someone? On their actions or what they say? There in lies the problem. It is sort of getting lost in translation, I fear. I feel that for some there is somewhat a sliding scale of sexuality and that may change with time....Does a young gal's cunt licking pursuits make her a lesbian? Or do we tend to reach our more authentic self as we age? We tend to tolerate less bullshit and become more rigid in what we accept and have a stronger self identity. It's an odd conversation, because you can only look at it through your own set o' eyes. I love sex. Live just a few blocks west of boystown in Chicago. Don't think gays are going to Hell. Not homophobic in the least. Have been hit on by guys and wasn't pissed at all. Then why haven't I bopped a guy? I don't think it would be too difficult and I think they would simply adore turning out such a lovely man. It just doesn't float my boat. Odd ain't it? Damn near puzzling, I say!!! The more I think about it, there does seem to be a lot more activity between women. I don't know why this is. Maybe it is because it is not only more tolerated but I have heard it might even be encouraged by some sick and disturbed red blooded males. This deserved more thought and a better post...But boys and beers are calling. Maybe I will drink some beer and bang one of my buddies tonight? who knows? I lo To me, there does appear to be an increase in chicks walking around holding hands. The whole lesbo thing is kind of dismissed. I have never heard of a single episode of "lez bashing" that comes to mind...However, I am sure that it has happened somewhere.

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