RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice?

RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (Full Version)

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NorthernGent -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 3:46:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: For instance having your cock sucked is always useful You mistake an act of homosexuality out of convenience with being homosexual.. the two are not synonymous Ok Julia - quite clearly you have this nailed down so I'll defer to your better judgement.

domiguy -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 3:47:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy I have a hard time believing a lot of this that I am reading....You think you have a choice in the way you conduct your life? You might have the possibility to make some small changes but much of who and what you are is determined right there in the womb. If you have suffered some sort of abuse or severe trauma then these events could alter your perceptions of yourself as well as how you perceive the outside world. Why would anyone want to be gay? There is a thread where Uganda has criminalized homosexuality. No problem. Everyone will simply stop being gay. Right? That's where the difference between desires and actions comes in-I, for example, can't stop being (mostly) gay, but I could choose to stop sleeping with women. The fact that I don't live in Uganda means that I don't have to. quote: It does not mean that you are anymore "openminded" if you are bisexual. it simply is what it is. If you are bisexual and so openminded than why don't you simply "choose" to enjoy broccoli or raw oysters? I said prettymuch that a few posts ago. LA agreed with me. She even called me a smart cookie for saying it! [:D] PS I do like raw oysters :-P I apologize, I didn't completely read the entire thread. But you are confusing desires with hard wired personal instincts. Here is the deal. Uganda outlaws me sleeping with women. Punishment is death. There is a good chance that I am going to be shot. I would rather abstain from sex or jerk off than bang some guy. The idea does nothing for me. There is no fascination, curiosity or the slightest allure. If Uganda continues this pursuit, people will be arrested and maybe killed. Only because they are homosexal and the alternative is not acceptable. You do have the ability to live in the states as a homosexual. but you can be heavily discriminated against. Marriage, employment, to name a few. Let alone what happened to Mathew Shepard. Who would choose and want to live this life?

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 3:54:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy I apologize, I didn't completely read the entire thread. But you are confusing desires with hard wired personal instincts. Here is the deal. Uganda outlaws me sleeping with women. Punishment is death. There is a good chance that I am going to be shot. I would rather abstain from sex or jerk off than bang some guy. The idea does nothing for me. There is no fascination, curiosity or the slightest allure. I think I would rather go with 'conflating' than 'confusing', but I will accept that instincts might well be a better term. In that case, you would be choosing abstinence rather than heterosexuality-but that is still an active choice you would be making. I don't know if you saw it, but there was also some discussion in this thread about flexibility, and how a person's sexual flexibility lies on a spectrum just as much as their sexual orientation, or their kinky orientation. So you're at the end of the spectrum-the choices are therefore a whole lot more clear cut for you than me, that's all. quote: If Uganda continues this pursuit, people will be arrested and maybe killed. Only because they are homosexal and the alternative is not acceptable. You do have the ability to live in the states as a homosexual. but you can be heavily discriminated against. Marriage, employment, to name a few. Let alone what happened to Mathew Shepard. Who would choose and want to live this life? Someone who values the benefits of being openly homosexual more than the dangers-that is still a choice that has to be made, though.

juliaoceania -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 3:55:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: For instance having your cock sucked is always useful You mistake an act of homosexuality out of convenience with being homosexual.. the two are not synonymous Ok Julia - quite clearly you have this nailed down so I'll defer to your better judgement. I am just saying, if Bubba sees a pretty boy join his cell block and holds up a girly mag while having sex, or otherwise fantasizes about the female form while being "gay"... well that really wouldn't be a homosexual thing to do... just like a gay man having straight sex with his wife isn't straight either... I am not trying to be a know-it-all here... I just see a big diff between an action and an orientation.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:01:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I am not trying to be a know-it-all here... I just see a big diff between an action and an orientation. Which I think is the whole point of the thread, no? (The difference, not the status of your knowledgeability...:-P)

domiguy -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:02:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy Why would anyone want to be gay? I'd imagine that there are a whole raft of incentives. For instance having your cock sucked is always useful (particularly when in dire need) and belonging to a community is good for the soul. Seems we see it differently - I'd say you can be anything you want to be - it's ambition that dictates your path (and even ambition can be changed where you spend time learning from the right people). "I'd say you can be anything you want to be." Come on. I want to sing opera. It will never happen. I couldn't be northerngent anymore than you could be domiguy. It doesn't work that way. Our brains will not allow that to happen. I have always been partial to brown eyes. It didn't come from an event or choice it always has just "been." It isn't mandatory but it is a preference. However, the brown eyes have to be in the skull of a woman. I have never in my life noticed those dazzling brown eyes of Denzel Washington. Denzel don't do shit for the Domiguy. So why are not all brown eyes equal? I find it kind of disgusting that people simply break down sexual preference as a matter of choice. It totally undermines what people have fought for with such great passion and determination. No one puts out that kind of a fight over broccoli. There are plenty of other green vegetables that will do in it's stead. For many it just isn't the easy choice of switching teams. They didn't sign up for it but they are only going to play for only one team for the rest of their lives. For most ...It's not a choice.

juliaoceania -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:02:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I am not trying to be a know-it-all here... I just see a big diff between an action and an orientation. Which I think is the whole point of the thread, no? (The difference, not the status of your knowledgeability...:-P) Yes, exactly... Like was said earlier, someone forced to live their entire life without being whom they truly are leaves a trail of victims....

Vendaval -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:03:04 PM)
Greetings Lady Agelika, Good to see you back on CM and posting again. As with any nature/nurture question I feel both create my path in life and relationships.

NorthernGent -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:06:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: For instance having your cock sucked is always useful You mistake an act of homosexuality out of convenience with being homosexual.. the two are not synonymous Ok Julia - quite clearly you have this nailed down so I'll defer to your better judgement. I am just saying, if Bubba sees a pretty boy join his cell block and holds up a girly mag while having sex, or otherwise fantasizes about the female form while being "gay"... well that really wouldn't be a homosexual thing to do... just like a gay man having straight sex with his wife isn't straight either... I am not trying to be a know-it-all here... I just see a big diff between an action and an orientation. Fair enough then. I think that at the drop of a hat it would be possible to list countless benefits associated with being gay (as there are with being straight) - the cock sucking bit followed "for instance" and I think it should have been clear that we were talking about being gay rather than some bloke who's been locked up for the past 20 years and is looking around for some sort of release. I dunno....perhaps it takes a gay man to explain why the rewards outweigh the negatives.....when all's said and done there has to be something in it for you to make it worthwhile......mind you the thread isn't really about this.

domiguy -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:09:21 PM)
You can choose to live your life in a number of different fashions. The gay guy who marries a woman is still gay. Usually he is banging guys while still going home to his wife. A white dude that speaks Cantonese is still white. What is the point? That people are capable of living a lie? Yeah they are. Or that if you are white and speak Cantonese that it makes you Chinese? I don't get it.

Level -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:13:09 PM)
FR I believe you are born gay, straight, or bi. I also think there is a much larger than is acknowledged number of people that are bi, a great many of them don't realize it, and may never realize it, for any number of reasons. Now, in a number of matters, you do have a choice in what you become, but as others have said, I don't think this overrides certain things.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:13:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy What is the point? That people are capable of living a lie? Yeah they are. Or that if you are white and speak Cantonese that it makes you Chinese? I don't get it. I think (correct me if I'm wrong, LA!) that LA was asking how the people at the flexible end of the spectrum decide which side of the kneel/which gender of partner they want in a relationship-and how flexible people feel they are, what factors affect that degree of flexibility... etc etc

domiguy -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:14:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent I dunno....perhaps it takes a gay man to explain why the rewards outweigh the negatives.....when all's said and done there has to be something in it for you to make it worthwhile......mind you the thread isn't really about this. Come on. You are one of my favorite posters. You don't have to ask a gay guy the positives of being gay. He will give you the exact same answers that a straight guy will inform you on the joys of being straight. However, the guy gay can go into great detail on all of the negatives of being gay that the straight guy has never been forced to consider.

NorthernGent -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:14:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy Come on. I want to sing opera. It will never happen. I couldn't be northerngent anymore than you could be domiguy. It doesn't work that way. Our brains will not allow that to happen. Course you could sing opera.....you wouldn't be invited over to Italy to show them how it's done mind you...but if it's a passion you could have a crack at it and enjoy yourself. Yeah you couldn't be me - for a start I'm 5'7 so stopping short of putting you in a vice and squashing you there's not a great deal we could do.....and plus my personal experiences (which I'm sure will not be the same as yours) have molded the way I think. But say you're going through a period of negativity - you have it within you power to change that - and the same applies to career choice. quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy I find it kind of disgusting that people simply break down sexual preference as a matter of choice. It totally undermines what people have fought for with such great passion and determination. It's a philosophical question really concerning the hman mind....quite an interesting one too....it doesn't undermine a thing.

juliaoceania -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:17:25 PM)
NG, how much negativity is in English culture toward homosexuals in general? Are there laws banning you from having sex, for example? Are gay men murdered for their gayness? Is being gay a point of ridicule amongst young men there to the point of shunning those who seem gay? I am just trying to understand if the downside of being gay where you are is anything like the downside of being gay on this side of the atlantic

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:21:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania NG, how much negativity is in English culture toward homosexuals in general? Are there laws banning you from having sex, for example? no quote: Are gay men murdered for their gayness? yes quote: Is being gay a point of ridicule amongst young men there to the point of shunning those who seem gay? yes Does that mean the disadvantages outweigh the advantages? Still a no.

domiguy -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:27:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika quote: ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika Snip... I do know some gay men who chose a heterosexual marriage because they tought it would be easier. Some still say it is. It is not for me to judge. - LA This is what I was stating above. Those men you know are still gay regardless of who they married. The only choice they made was whether or not to find someone who embraced their homosexuality. They chose not to most likely due to societal pressure. While they may in fact love their spouse, it's highly unlikely that they are fully 'in love' with their spouse, and even more unlikely that they consider themselves heterosexual. Very true. But they chose to live a heterosexual life. That is what I'm saying about choice. We all can chose. - LA Very few if any live a heterosexual life...They nail guys on the side. Because they are gay...On the exterior they are living a lie. It might be a choice to hide their homosexuality but it hardly negates who they are.

NorthernGent -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:31:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania NG, how much negativity is in English culture toward homosexuals in general? Are there laws banning you from having sex, for example? Are gay men murdered for their gayness? Is being gay a point of ridicule amongst young men there to the point of shunning those who seem gay? I am just trying to understand if the downside of being gay where you are is anything like the downside of being gay on this side of the atlantic I suppose I only really see that which exists within the circles in which I mix. Homosexuality is certainly tolerated where I live - accepted is another matter. It is noticeable that gay women holding hands while shopping etc is increasing - and as far as I can see people aren't batting an eyelid. For gay men - I don't see any antagonism towards them - men are what you could call being camp while they're shopping etc and from what I can see no one is batting an eyelid. But I haven't seen men kissing in the street - and I suppose that will be a move toward acceptance. Are gay men ridiculed and shunned? not where I live but they would be where I was born and bred. I'd imagine similar to the US in that the big cities are more tolerant than the villages out in the sticks.

Level -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:35:37 PM)
Exactly. If two men were to kiss in public here, they might be, at the very least, verbally abused. Women too. Again, to the OP: you can not choose to be gay. You can choose to have gay sex, but not to be gay, if that makes sense. Just thinking this stuff through my noggin here.

RCdc -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 4:38:02 PM)
Hi VC I just guess we come from completely different areas of the UK and it's entirely different. Our answers wouldn't be the same where we are to yours, more like NGs. I haven't seen reports of gay motivated murders in the news for a very long time for one. Young people are definately more open to homosexuality and bisexual relationships. My son(17) has two gay/trans friends and my daughter has a female bi bestfriend(15) and all are out at college and school without any issues of bullying etc. I believe that the older generation of homosexual peeps probably have more problems than people my childrens age because they are learning that it's not such a taboo subject anymore. Maybe it's an age thing. Julia. It was made legal in the UK to have homosexual sex in 1967. 21 was the age restriction but that has since altered to 16. the.dark.

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