RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice?

RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (Full Version)

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RCdc -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 5:28:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious Thankyou-don't get me wrong, this isn't something that bothers me on a daily basis-I just find thinking about it a bit stressful. I have a hot water bottle now, though, so I'm feeling better. [:)] Hot water bottles rock! I love mine, it's red and glitter... eek. Now I am now... all this reminiscing made me glowy. Poor Master is hearing about my red patent shoes when I was about 2 or 3... but that's digressing...[;)] the.dark.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 5:31:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW Domiguy said: quote: Is that the whole purpose of this thread is whether we are capable of doing things that are not true to our nature? When I read the OP, it seemed to me that the "purpose" of the thread was to figure out whether, in fact, people who were conscious, thinking adults would insist that they are, essentially, 'trapped' by the accident of their genetics, unable to decide for themselves how to live and how to present themselves in the world because they were born homosexual, dominant, etc. Just my take. I will admit it isn't an easy OP, but then again, even through my whole academic career, I haven't been the one that asks the easy questions. The OP was my half formed ideas brought forward for discussion. I presented my opinion on the topic, but the fact that I asked others to share their views demonstrated an openess to hear others views. The fact that I got a discussion going means that the OP was succesful to me. Firstly, I'd like to thank those who presented a differing point of view from mine in a respectful manner. I always say that it isn't by people telling me that they agree with me that I grow. It's by people challenging me. This thread was not meant to be nurture vs nature. I started off by saying that our desires are our desires, no matter how we aquired them. I guess a more accurate way to explain what was going on in my mind as I wrote the OP is that I don't really have a deterministic view of life. Because I am a citizen of a country where I have the right to be who I want to be regardless of challenges getting there, the path I chose is the path I chose. Simply. Now another thing I realised, and it was Ms Smart Cookie (aka VaguelyCurious) who said it so well: The thread really brought home to me that not everyone is flexible, and that a lack of flexibility isn't the same as prejudice or closed-mindedness; it's just wiring. - LA

LadyAngelika -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 5:34:55 PM)
quote: Hot water bottles rock! Since you ladies are off topic. Yes they do. I've had mine all day on the couch with the kitty cat & the remote. I did not chose to be a woman ;-) but I chose not to change it. - LA

heartcream -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 6:22:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level Here in small town Texas, we're still at the "be gay if you're gonna be gay, don't do it in public" stage, for the most part. We're much less advanced in that way, sadly. You know it is interesting to watch borders go splintering down. As I have mentioned I lived and worked in gay NY. I moved there the summer of 93. The thing is of course Gay Pride week was ginormous. Everyone came from the far reaches to be gay in gay NY. What was so cool to watch was how much more reserved the gay NY'rs were compared to the tourists of Gay Pride. It evolved more and more relaxed through the decade I was there. The out of towners thought NY'rs were so freaky and wild so they came acting that way. The NY'rs often were not the first to initiate the trends of behavior but NY was the space to be that way, until it became part of everyday life. On another note, I had two particular gay friends were partial to Central Park at night where you could get done by all sorts of guys by wandering into the Rambles. They would tell me of their escapades a bit and most of the time these men were married. These particular two preferred to bang married men, it was a thing with them. They didnt know each other but they were both into that same thing.

Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 7:35:56 PM)
LadyAngelika, To a certain degree of reason there is choice and tends to vary from person to person. You put together a string of paths in your opening post. Things that are similar yet extremely different at the same time. I'm going to use myself as a reference point in attempting to share with you and others my thoughts. Sexual Orientation - I'm not attracted nor drawn to men in a sexual manner, I don't have sexual fantasies centered around men. My sexual urges, fantasies are centered upon women and women stimulate me sexually. Guys, don't do it for me. If guys did, I have had more than enough opportunuties to engage in sex with those of my same gender. However, also with that said, there have been women that have not sexually stimulated me. So in within the scope of being "Straight" not all women turn me on nor do I find them sexually attractive. All of which at this level, is not a matter of choice. In regards to me having sex with somebody I find attractive or sexually stimulating - This is where I have Choice. BDSM orientation label - I've selected the label that best applies to me. It's how the labels are grouped together and the situation things apply to. There are choices, yet also attractions to certain kinks and tendancies. Sexual Dominant - Urges, Tendancies, fantasies I'm drawn to very much in the same manner I am with women. However, this gets more confusing. Different women bring out different urges and desires. None the less, I enjoy doing bad things to girls. I very much so have choices in what I do. However, the fantasies and irges. Those things I have not much choice over. Social Dominant - Magically finding myself group leader or stepped up to the plate when group leaders fall flat on face. At times, I actually don't want, desire being in this role. In many regards, I enjoy dealing without the added responsbilities and complexness it brings. Again, a choice. Regardless if there's an urge or natural situation that occurs. I have the choice to say, you know what... I don't want the job. In fact, I might be thinking to myself OMG.. can't somebody else do this. Relationship Dominant - I have a tendancy to gravitate towards being boss, regardless how much I try to shun it. There are choices I make very much so with any relationship. One thing is that I'm not submissive when it comes to relationships. It's just simply not my personality or nature. It's equal footing or above. Get's confusing because for equal footing to occur, it requires a women with Dominant tendancies that I click with. This all can get rather confusing inside of BDSM labelology. Kink I'm drawn to certain things and some of it is coupled with sex and some of it ain't. Sadism - This area is a very tightly controlled thing for me, because of this.. I very much have choices. In fact, I can turn the sadistic urges down like a volume knob on the stereo. However, there are triggers that crank the urges up to 10 in no time flat. Choice is very much in control of this. Though mind you, I do have a sadistic sense of humor and make sadistic jokes, remarks, comments and express some very dark humor. If I'm pissed off I might make sadistic sarcastic remarks. There are many situational type of things regarding this. If I am around a Masochistic women, I'll let the sadist out of the closest to play, just not in some BDSM scene box either. This aspect of my life, is a rather complex facet. Masochistic - At the moment my cravings for pain are very low, in fact I would not deal with it well at the moment. However, there are times when I'm craving for a fix, and my tolerence is very high. It's a bit like the wheater in this department. These urges, I have no choice over. I end up getting my pain fix and everything is all smoothed out again. However, I'm rather a Sexual Masochistic and enjoy finger nails, being bite, and this sounds silly even the sensation of having the hairs on my arms plucked while I'm holding somebody in my arms. It's sort of like painful preening. There's other things I enjoy too. Difficult to explain. However, I have choices. Shall I let somebody pluck out the hairs on my arm or not? I've enjoyed it in the past and it did not conflict with my Dominant label. (only been with one girl that ever did that, and I'll be content with that.) Changes in time There are many things I can take or leave now. After you've said and done a number of things, well it's not that big of a deal. There's something to be said about having a relationship with somebody. At times it's our emotional needs that over ride some of our kinky desires and urges. There are other things besides our orientations, kinks, fetish. and fantasies that have a large influence in our lives. So, choices always within some range or scope. Other things, no so much. I'm a by product of human biological urges, Childhood Experiences, The enviroment(s) that suround me, Cultural influences, Life Experiences, blah blah blah... so many different factors. Pair me up with an Adorable Masochistic girl that I'm sexually and mentally into.. Certain facets of me come out. Paired up with a somebody that's extremely sexual and less Masochistic.. again slightly different facets shine out. It's all themes and Variations at the end of the day for me personal, with a certain degree of choice.

LadyPact -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 7:40:39 PM)
<Using fast reply> I haven't read the whole of the thread, though My intuition is telling Me that Mine is going to be the answer in the minority. Choice! I've always had a dominant personality. (In My opinion, that's different than being a Dominant.) I have always done well in positions of leadership and authority. Those are things that I attribute to the type of person that I am. That's the 'who' I am. The rest of this; the power dynamics, the kink, even the sadism, I could (and have) walk away from it. Not a bit of it defines Me. During that time in My life that didn't include BDSM, I wasn't sitting around pining for it. I was (and am) quite happy in an equality based relationship. The rest of this stuff is just extra to Me. Kind of like desert. I love ice cream, but if I never had it again, it wouldn't be some great upheaval in My life. I just might have a passing thought about the taste of ice cream once in a while, and then I'd get on with whatever it was that I was doing. I see all of this in very much the same way I do as most things in My life. It's not a need, but a want. Since it is a want, I realize it's an 'extra' in My life and I don't depend on it. Instead, I appreciate it because I know it's a benefit, rather than a necessity. Personally, I function just as well as a kinky person as a vanilla person. Since I have both, I appreciate the positives of each without detracting from the other.

sweetboundesire -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 10:03:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy Doesn't change who you are. Really? Well how do you judge someone? On their actions or what they say? There in lies the problem. It is sort of getting lost in translation, I fear. I feel that for some there is somewhat a sliding scale of sexuality and that may change with time....Does a young gal's cunt licking pursuits make her a lesbian? Or do we tend to reach our more authentic self as we age? We tend to tolerate less bullshit and become more rigid in what we accept and have a stronger self identity. It's an odd conversation, because you can only look at it through your own set o' eyes. I love sex. Live just a few blocks west of boystown in Chicago. Don't think gays are going to Hell. Not homophobic in the least. Have been hit on by guys and wasn't pissed at all. Then why haven't I bopped a guy? I don't think it would be too difficult and I think they would simply adore turning out such a lovely man. It just doesn't float my boat. Odd ain't it? Damn near puzzling, I say!!! The more I think about it, there does seem to be a lot more activity between women. I don't know why this is. Maybe it is because it is not only more tolerated but I have heard it might even be encouraged by some sick and disturbed red blooded males. This deserved more thought and a better post...But boys and beers are calling. Maybe I will drink some beer and bang one of my buddies tonight? who knows? I lo To me, there does appear to be an increase in chicks walking around holding hands. The whole lesbo thing is kind of dismissed. I have never heard of a single episode of "lez bashing" that comes to mind...However, I am sure that it has happened somewhere. dear me, must i give you this info? i thought by 2005 most men "got it" no offense, Domiguy....your far ahead of most men by cynicism alone... this is just the plain blunt, DUH of reality between women and men why can two women become intimate so much easier over men... for one, we are emotional & highly more evolved in being not only in touch with our feelings but communicating them. we are soft, fragile, strong and immensely beautiful creatures that when recognized for who we are, respond with love, warmth, understanding and physical desire. Women are a gift from heaven above. It is puzzling to me how us bi women still long for something about a man...yet i am one of those women...there is something about you men i cannot find fulfilled in a women, yet beyond this...women, who are able to reach the understanding of who they are and the gifts they bring to life, just being the creatures they are and having a good head upon their shoulders and a body they take care of, well dear Domiguy, they are a gift of the gods. I love men, i love pleasing the right man and being submissive to that man yet there is not one iota of female magical beauty they can offer that a woman who knows her self and her sexuality and cares for her body bestowed to her can offer that a man can have a chance to compare to. That man shouldn't even try. Men, glory in your own uprighteousness of manhood, it is something that is what us bi and straight females are pulled toward, yet woman in her own right is a glory to the pragmatic realities around and should forever be upheld for the beauty and wonder she sprinkles upon this basic reality around us all.

juliaoceania -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/13/2010 10:23:20 PM)
quote: Women are a gift from heaven above. Um, and here I thought men were[;)]

afterforever -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/14/2010 7:12:42 AM)
I guess I'm in the flexible actions camp too, possibly by virtue of being born bisexual (no choice there). I consider myself naturally bisexual, polygamous, submissive, and masochistic. I would probably be most happy in a relationship with numerous people, of both genders (or somewhere in between), at least one of whom wants to control and hurt me. I was born that way, but I don't always have to act that way, and I don't consider it to be living a lie or ignoring my true nature, I'm still that way underneath, I'm just capable of compromising some of these aspects for the right person. I have in the past chosen a relationship that I knew was going to be monogamous, equality based, with a completely non kinky, very straight man. And for a while there, I was sort of happy, although I have to admit I did find ways to defer to his opinion and generally act submissive, so that's probably the least flexible part of me.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/14/2010 8:37:26 AM)
quote: Well I don't want to put words in her mouth as she's quite articulate, and I hope she chimes in, but what I get from her posts is that she can never imagine vanilla. thank you for your kind words, LadyA. although it is imaginable...this slave is not oriented for nor willing to engage in a relationship with a vanilla foundation. it isn't fair to the one who requires a vanilla foundation for this slave to fake/act comfortable in that role...and faking/acting isn't comfortable for this slave, either. due to her militaristic childhood training, it's a hung jury on deciding if nature or nurture gets the credit...was this slave "naturally" submissive and she took to the training like a duck to water? or was she "naturally" dominant and the training was so effective it "nurtured" *any* tendency for dominance right out of her? either way, the end result is a heterosexual female submissive, in or out of the bedroom. as far as enjoying women sexually? never have---tried to once or twice, but there is no attraction to or enjoyment of females or their sexuality for this slave, so what would be the point?

sexyred1 -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/14/2010 8:54:52 AM)
I firmly believe that we are hard wired during childhood for the type of sexuality we possess. I have known about my proclivities since childhood without knowing they were sexually based until puberty and connecting the dots. I don't think you can change the sexual pattern you are born with, however, I do believe and will always believe you have choices in how you perceive the pattern, how you react to it, how you try other avenues and what you actually implement in your life. As others have said, I believe you are born gay, straight, bi, dominant, submissive, etc. However, the knowledge of what you are or may be, may not be present until a specific act or event solidifies the pattern. I can go into more detail, but do not care to at the moment. Suffice it to say that every person I have ever met, knows of the defining moment or moments that put their particular pattern in place and it always happened during childhood or your teens.

Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/14/2010 9:36:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 ...Suffice it to say that every person I have ever met, knows of the defining moment or moments that put their particular pattern in place and it always happened during childhood or your teens. This has been my experience as well.

Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/14/2010 9:39:26 AM)
flexible This word/concept appears on a number of posts. However it is something that orientations, labels and lists don't address very well.

lally2 -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/14/2010 1:06:22 PM)
even if i went to life skill classes, relationship classes and studied psychotherapy for a decade i could not change what i inherently am. i am attraced and fasinated by a certain type of man and they are attracted to me. it makes sense to go with that. its a prefferance not a choice per se. in a way i choose to be in an Ms relationship, yes. but my options are limited, since vanilla does not work for me on any level whatsoever and Ds doesnt either. ten or so years ago i broke up with my mysogenistic boyfriend and six years before that i walked away from an abusive bastard, i switched on my brand new computer and signed on to aol. at the time one of their public discussion boards was Dominance and Submission. i discovered that i was of a type, that there were many others of my type and that there were men who complimented my type. at that point i chose to explore and pursue this more. but only because i recognised myself in the descriptions written on submissives and knew that i had found my 'place'. the choice to pursue this was mine, my sexuality and personality type had already been determined and had nothing to do with choice at all. in a way, it would be more of a 'choice' to go vanilla. as it is im just doing what comes naturally to me, so why stress myself out and force myself to be something that im not.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/14/2010 1:49:31 PM)
quote: thank you for your kind words, LadyA. They were honest words beth! Thanks for chiming in. :-) - LA

LadyAngelika -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/14/2010 1:59:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4 quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 ...Suffice it to say that every person I have ever met, knows of the defining moment or moments that put their particular pattern in place and it always happened during childhood or your teens. This has been my experience as well. I personally cannot as it was all so cloudy for so long: when I discovered I might be attracted to women (12) when I realised I could do something about my attraction to women (17) when everyone in my environment, including professionals, told me that I had to chose gay or straight (those famous determinists) and the diagnosis was that because I was attracted to women I was gay so to focus on this (21) when I finally, after many years of not being completely happy with my sexual orientation, met more open-minded people who told me that it was ok to be bi (25) when I finally accepted who I was (27) So I've had peace of mind for the last 10 years or so since people stopped telling me what I am or should be, both on this side and the kink side of my life. - LA

Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/14/2010 3:18:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika quote: ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4 quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 ...Suffice it to say that every person I have ever met, knows of the defining moment or moments that put their particular pattern in place and it always happened during childhood or your teens. This has been my experience as well. I personally cannot as it was all so cloudy for so long: when I discovered I might be attracted to women (12) when I realised I could do something about my attraction to women (17) when everyone in my environment, including professionals, told me that I had to chose gay or straight (those famous determinists) and the diagnosis was that because I was attracted to women I was gay so to focus on this (21) when I finally, after many years of not being completely happy with my sexual orientation, met more open-minded people who told me that it was ok to be bi (25) when I finally accepted who I was (27) So I've had peace of mind for the last 10 years or so since people stopped telling me what I am or should be, both on this side and the kink side of my life. - LA It took you how many years to accept something you already knew about yourself since age 12-17?

LadyAngelika -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/14/2010 3:21:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4 It took you how many years to accept something you already knew about yourself since age 12-17? If you really think it boils down to a simple question like that, you obviously do not have a clue what sexual orientation confusion is all about. - LA

whiteslavebitch -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/14/2010 5:00:03 PM)
I'm a submissive to the core. I've had to work hard at not being submissive at inappropriate times. I feel I was born with the tendency, and life experience has caused me to develop into a submissive. My only choice is whether or not to par- ticipate in BDSM and M/s. I have a 23 year vanilla marriage behind me that didn't work partly because I had way more control than I was comfortable with. I have come to the realization that D/s or M/s was a much better fit for me.

DesFIP -> RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you have a choice? (2/14/2010 5:02:21 PM)
I never had a WOW moment about sexual orientation. Guys looked good, women didn't. As far as submission, yes. I was about 48 typed bondage.com into the browser looking for erotica and instead discovered a site filled with all sorts of people who talked about stuff I didn't even have the words for. Came across the general definition for submission and said "aha, so that's what I am". Hard to know you are something if you don't know the something even exists.

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