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Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/19/2010 12:46:22 AM

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So, here's a fun philosophical question:

Should people with mental health disorders be considered competent to be "in the lifestyle", or should the non-normative psychological functioning preclude someone from participating in WIITWD?

Assume I'm talking about non-violent, "manageable" disorders, such as mood/anxiety disorders, OCD, Autism spectrum, etc. - not violent disorders or disorders involving severe delusional thought or behavior.

If someone happens to be kinky and crazy, should their kink go unfulfilled? (for that matter, if someone has to be crazy, should they be having intimate/romantic/sexual relations at all?)

RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/19/2010 8:51:19 AM

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What's your (or at least a) theory as to why they shouldn't? That would be the most interesting part of this discussion.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/19/2010 8:54:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

If someone happens to be kinky and crazy, should their kink go unfulfilled? (for that matter, if someone has to be crazy, should they be having intimate/romantic/sexual relations at all?)

Are they capable of consenting to vanilla sex?

If yes, I really don't see how, legally or ethically they could be denied. Now, it's a good thing is another matter completely and that simply depends on the individual person.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/19/2010 9:00:20 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

If yes, I really don't see how, legally or ethically they could be denied.

That usually isn't as much the issue as the deferment of responsibility to the other partner if something goes wrong. We see 'normal' adult relationships where the blame of responsibility gets thrown to the other partner under the guise of 'manipulation' or such silliness (which, at the core, is an admission that the 'victimized' party had a compromised ability to consent), I can't imagine how safe it could potentially be for someone engaging in a relationship with a partner who has a more clinical relation to issues that could affect their state of mind.

But, in the end, I don't see it as anything more than just another quirk in the 'baggage' department.

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(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/19/2010 9:02:01 AM

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It is so ironic that you asked this question. I was seriously thinking about it because of another thread.

In My personal opinion, there are some disorders that should not necessarily exclude someone from kink. At the same time, I absolutely believe there are some disorders that should. If a person does not have the mental capacity and/or emotional stability to consent, I don't honestly think they should be engaging in BDSM. Unlike Aqua, I don't base this determination on whether or not a person can have vanilla sex. There have absolutely been cases proven that a person didn't have the mental capacity to agree to having sex, because their mental state was such that they didn't know what they were consenting to.

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RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/19/2010 9:11:34 AM

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I still want to hear the theory as to why someone with OCD can't have sex?

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RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/19/2010 9:13:40 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: specialk2611

I still want to hear the theory as to why someone with OCD can't have sex?

Too busy washing up in preparation.

Sorry. Couldn't help myself.

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RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/19/2010 9:32:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

So, here's a fun philosophical question:

Should people with mental health disorders be considered competent to be "in the lifestyle", or should the non-normative psychological functioning preclude someone from participating in WIITWD?

It doesn't make sense to me that one would challenge their "competence." I can imagine individual cases where it wouldn't be particularly healthy for a mentally disordered person to engage in kink. But there are plenty of people who are fucked in the head - either through emotional baggage, stupidity or both - trainwrecks waiting to happen that enter into the "lifestyle" even though their particular set of problems don't merit clinical diagnosis. Designating the whole class of mentally disordered people "incompetent" to conduct a kinky relationship strikes me as over-broad.

quote:

If someone happens to be kinky and crazy, should their kink go unfulfilled? (for that matter, if someone has to be crazy, should they be having intimate/romantic/sexual relations at all?)

It's a good thing you specified that this was a fun philosophical question, rather than serious, because your use of the term "crazy" doesn't exactly solicit serious answers. It also ignores the many people who consider kink, by definition, crazy. Which arguably means that to answer Yes to your question, is to say No to all kink. I suppose it could be fun watching people back themselves into a corner in that regard. But really, I'd stick with -- it depends on the person. Frequently, an identifiable and treatable disorder is easier to manage in a relationship than the freewheeling insecurity and narcissism that so many nominally "healthy" people present with.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/19/2010 9:48:16 AM

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We are all banned according to the previous DSM-IV.

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RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/19/2010 9:57:05 AM

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I suffer from bipolar 1 and I can have SSC sex with any partners as long as they respect my hard limits. That means no anal play because I was raped at the age of 11 and because I do have an anal fissure. This also leaves rape play out. As long as I am in "control" nothing will offend me.

CountrySong and I both agree...having sex with someone who has bipolar disoprder tends to be fun and kinkier. The limits has to be respected, that's all.

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RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/19/2010 10:40:15 AM

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Anyone who is not mentally capable of giving consent to sex would or should be in the care of a guardian. Other than that, who the hell would police such a thing? There are many, many people who enter into this lifestyle who really shouldn't and I'm not talking OCD or Aspergers because its been proven that such people actually do very well in the mental side of this.
Take away those that need guardians, take away violent psychopaths (though you probably wouldn't know about that till its too late) and what are we left with?
Who is qualified to be in this lifestyle? should we set up a judging panel? if they don't qualify, who tells them the bad news?
Every individual that is capable to live independently and not in the hands of a carer will have and should have the right to make that personal choice.

Sometimes the BDSM world feels like it has a Malissia. A bunch of self appointed experts that look at controlling the whole environment.

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RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/20/2010 6:24:06 AM

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The following is based on personal observations from spending 3+ years working int he mental health field:

Approximately only 10-15% of people with an official mental health diagnosis can be classified as severely mentalydisabled, meaning they have difficulty functioning at even a basic level, these people require at times 24 hour a day supervision, or intesnisve community support servics. They are often incapable of indepedndently managing simple tasks such as money management, grocery shopping/food preperation, maintanence of living quarters, and scheduling of appointments, etc. They frequentely display poor decision making skills, and can be vulnerable in many ways. These are the inpatient frequent flyers, they typically have histories of numerous psychiatric admission due to decompensation.e shouldn't be considered capable in "lifestyle" or many other choices, and responsible people should politely decline to play with them. Unfortunately, the world is full of irresponsible people all all persuasions- a problem we probably won't solve here.

There is another 20-30% that are moderately functional, they arew capable of idepedndent functioning with a combination of a stable medication regime and minimal support, they often do best when they have a supportive family to assist. They typically have far fewer patient admissions, sometimes going for years between severely decompensation episodes. They tend to have better decision making skills, and are usually quite capable for forming appropriate interpersonal relationships with others, vanilla, kinky, or whatever.

Then there is the remainder- those people are your family, frineds, colleagues, and sometimes yourself. These people are futional in both their personal and professional life, they are quite capable of independently maintaining without medications- they just feel better withit, and it makes life easier. These are the ones who you'd never pick out as being mental health clients. They are often quite successful (esp. those OCD folks), I know of several who have prominent careers. No reason they can't play as well as the next person- and I know more than one person from kinkyville who I discovered later had a shrink and a prescription.

(in reply to allthatjaz)

RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/20/2010 7:57:07 AM

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It really depends on how well equipped the other partner is in dealing with the issues.

Personally,I am ill equipped to deal with drama on an ongoing basis.

(in reply to afkarr)

RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/20/2010 8:19:48 AM

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It depends.

Are they stable?
Are they taking their meds regularly?
Are they under a doctor's care/authority?
Going to psych appointments regularly?
Monitored?

If so then yes.
If not then they have a lot of work to do and while they may still seek this out I sure as hell would not want to get into such a mess.

(in reply to Smutmonger)

RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/20/2010 10:37:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

So, here's a fun philosophical question:

Should people with mental health disorders be considered competent to be "in the lifestyle", or should the non-normative psychological functioning preclude someone from participating in WIITWD?

Assume I'm talking about non-violent, "manageable" disorders, such as mood/anxiety disorders, OCD, Autism spectrum, etc. - not violent disorders or disorders involving severe delusional thought or behavior.

If someone happens to be kinky and crazy, should their kink go unfulfilled? (for that matter, if someone has to be crazy, should they be having intimate/romantic/sexual relations at all?)

I think the question the non-affected person should ask is if he or she is competent to determine whether someone suffering from a certified illness or dysfunction is capable of making decisions regarding domination or submission.

Without a full case history and a sufficient degree of expertise in handling someone with the specific illness in question I rather doubt it.

And yet the consequences for mishandling the illness can be traumatic, for both partners.

Thus I argue that those with disorders/illnesses/dysfunctions should seek help/therapy before considering a bdsm relationship.

This does not preclude the partner from participating in the therapy, helping his or her partner recover/cope with the illness, but does strongly recommend that any decisions regarding bdsm be postponed until the therapy has its desired effect.

Remember that Safe Sane and Consensual requires that both partners be sane, for as long as sanity is in doubt, so too is consent.

Personally, I don't believe it is responsible to involve someone when there is as much doubt as a certifiable dysfunction creates.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/20/2010 10:42:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
Other than that, who the hell would police such a thing?

Each of us is responsible for giving or refusing consent. As part of that responsibility it is incumbent on both partners to ensure their partner is capable of meaningful consent.

A submissive would be foolish not to ensure the dom is sane, just as it would be foolish for a dom not to ensure his partner is sane.

Of course, this doesn't rule out the possibility of deception (someone ill hiding their illness), but that is something long-term exposure (ie, simple dating) would reveal.

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RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/20/2010 10:45:36 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

It depends.

Are they stable?
Are they taking their meds regularly?
Are they under a doctor's care/authority?
Going to psych appointments regularly?
Monitored?

All of these things may be happening and yet the individual is not in a position to give meaningful consent because the healing process is incomplete.

And focusing on the one ill does not take into account whether the unaffected partner is capable of handling a breakdown/meltdown/episode which might be triggered at any time but especially during an experience involving bdsm.

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When your bdsm paradigm makes love essential, expect some flack from those for whom love is anathema.

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RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/20/2010 7:50:29 PM

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It just seems to me I would not have sex with or play with a person who is not capable of making clear decisions. This is just common sense. It's also why people should not have sex or play with complete strangers. I'm not saying anyone with a controled illness should be omited from living their lives as they want. You just have to know a person a bit and exercise good judgement.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/20/2010 7:53:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

It is so ironic that you asked this question. I was seriously thinking about it because of another thread.

In My personal opinion, there are some disorders that should not necessarily exclude someone from kink. At the same time, I absolutely believe there are some disorders that should. If a person does not have the mental capacity and/or emotional stability to consent, I don't honestly think they should be engaging in BDSM. Unlike Aqua, I don't base this determination on whether or not a person can have vanilla sex. There have absolutely been cases proven that a person didn't have the mental capacity to agree to having sex, because their mental state was such that they didn't know what they were consenting to.

I didn't ask if they can have sex. I said "are they capable of consenting to vanilla sex?".

My point being that if we are willing to regard them as capable of consenting to the "basic" sex acts, then I don't think we can pick and choose what else they are able to consent to.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 2/20/2010 8:44:49 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle - 2/20/2010 9:13:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
I didn't ask if they can have sex. I said "are they capable of consenting to vanilla sex?".

My point being that if we are willing to regard them as capable of consenting to the "basic" sex acts, then I don't think we can pick and choose what else they are able to consent to.

So how 'crazy' does someone have to be before you say "No, I won't share vanilla sex with you"?

_____________________________

When your bdsm paradigm makes love essential, expect some flack from those for whom love is anathema.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

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