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RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 8:42:31 AM

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And, I said...in my first line addressing You, that it might be reality in YOUR world. You too, are addressing you, not the generic situation. Yet, you are calling me out on it. If it's for you, fine. But, to make the statement an absolute "But in this scenario? She'd better strip, and not even hesitate first" is where things get sticky. Because, for you- just like other posters (myself included)- it's colored by Your experiences and Your relationships. It then stops being hypothetical, and becomes situational. I only got to this point, because I was addressing TxRanger, who SPECIFICALLY said: The hypothetical question is one of slavery not civil disobedience. We are not discussing Thoreau. The motivation, judgment or sanity of the Master is not relevant to the discussion. The question is the depth of her slavery. Which, in a way, seems to mirror the statement you made here: "If that makes a girl foolish to you, there's a world of vanilla waiting for you, no worries." So, I can either do what I know I need to in order to be safe OR I can be vanilla?

< Message edited by antinomy -- 2/24/2010 8:43:22 AM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 8:46:05 AM

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Why is this such an issue for you? Why do you even care?

"Blanket statement?" If she's my slave, she'd better strip. Yes. How is that a blanket statement? It is, after all, limited to girls who have decided to serve me as slaves, and whom I've accepted as such. That would definitely exclude you.

As for the rest, twist this as many ways as you wish. That's not hard. Enjoy.

It's still self-righteous claptrap built on erroneous assumptions.

I've striped girls at the airport, bus/train station, parks, restaurants, concert theaters, and a bunch of miscellaneous places. And I tend to attract and date professionals. Yet no arrests. No scandals. No ruined careers. No traumatized onlookers.

Just wet and satisfied girls.

So go ahead and construct more false dilemmas if that's your thing. Have fun.

The rest of us will carry on without you. We'll manage somehow.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 2/24/2010 8:51:58 AM >

(in reply to antinomy)

RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 8:54:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Why is this such an issue for you? Why do you even care?

"Blanket statement?" If she's my slave, she'd better strip. Yes. How is that a blanket statement? It is, after all, limited to girls who have decided to serve me as slaves, and whom I've accepted as such. That would definitely exclude you.

As for the rest, twist this as many ways as you wish. That's not hard. Enjoy.

It's still self-righteous claptrap built on erroneous assumptions.

I'm going out on a limb here, and guessing for the same reason it's an issue to you? Because it's important to me. Because I feel my point as valid as yours? Because I see both sides of the equation, and don't care to be negated simply because my reality is different than yours? I never tried to negate your point of view, nor did I treat your opinion with anything but respect and curiosity. I really want to understand the mindset of a Dominant that feels this way. It's foreign to me, and I'm curious. So, shoot me. I thought that was one of the reasons for the forums, to learn about other people- and their point of view.

I didn't twsit a single thing. I'm not self-righteous. And, since the OP gave few details, any assumptions- inculding mine and yours- can be erronoeus.

Edited to add: I really had no idea you had been elected to speak for everyone else on the board. Thanks, though, for letting them know I'm no longer welcome by you. I'm sorry if I hit a nerve, but sheesh...do you so easily dismiss everyone that sees things differently?

< Message edited by antinomy -- 2/24/2010 8:57:45 AM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 9:01:28 AM

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Read what you just wrote. Compare what it says to how you say you see yourself.

Take your time.

(in reply to antinomy)

RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 9:07:48 AM

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Musicmystery....honestly, I am not seeing whatever you are. I'm quite serious here. I was being honest and inquisitive in my posts. I found what you wrote to be very dismissive- and I sincerely have no idea WHY. So, I'm going to come out and ask you to elaborate. The only stupid question is the one not asked. Please, expand on what your last post. Where, exactly, is the discrepency in what I wrote and how you seem to think I perceive myself? I don't see the disconnect...

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 9:10:49 AM

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OK, start with your gratuitous edit and the jump in logic it displays.

(in reply to antinomy)

RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 9:29:41 AM

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Okay...let's go back...before you and I said a single word to each other. I'd responded, specifically, to TxRanger...who made the statement that judgment and sanity should not even be part of the equation.

To which, I answered:

So, you would expect a slave to be obedient, even if you were insane? If you hit your noggin' on a fricking anvil- and lost your sanity, then tell her to shoot your son, she's not supposed to exercise any judgement of her own at all? If she's a twue slave- bang, bang, and that's it? C'mon...please...

So far, my logic looks okay...

Then You jumped in with Your post about "silly hypotheticals." And posted that given the confines of the OP's paremeters:

"But in this scenario? She'd better strip, and not even hesitate first."

At which I responded why, in MY world, that would never happen.

Still missing the obvious flaw in the logic...

You came back, and told me:

"...that's addressing you, not the generic situation."

To which, I replied that you were basically doing the same thing. It's the nature of the beast given the lack of details in the OP's scenario.

(Still looking for the flaw)

At which point, you hit me with:

"Why is this such an issue for you? Why do you even care?

"Blanket statement?" If she's my slave, she'd better strip. Yes. How is that a blanket statement? It is, after all, limited to girls who have decided to serve me as slaves, and whom I've accepted as such. That would definitely exclude you.

As for the rest, twist this as many ways as you wish. That's not hard. Enjoy.

It's still self-righteous claptrap built on erroneous assumptions.

I've striped girls at the airport, bus/train station, parks, restaurants, concert theaters, and a bunch of miscellaneous places. And I tend to attract and date professionals. Yet no arrests. No scandals. No ruined careers. No traumatized onlookers.

Just wet and satisfied girls.

So go ahead and construct more false dilemmas if that's your thing. Have fun.

The rest of us will carry on without you. We'll manage somehow.'

And, now, because you have been fortunate- and your happy wet girls have yet to be arrested for lewd and lascivious behavor- ***I*** have an obvious flaw in logic? Russian roulette means the odds might indeed be in your favor. But, does not mean it's illogical not to want to play it, does it?

P.S.
In reply to what you wrote below:
Your not going to bait me into feeling bad about any of this. My "gratuitous response" was NOT in reply to anything other than:

"The rest of us will carry on without you. We'll manage somehow. "

Two could play at the "It saddens me..." game. But, I think I'll take the high road on this one. Best of luck with everything.

...and I put this as a P.S., so YOURS could be the final word on the subject.

< Message edited by antinomy -- 2/24/2010 9:49:23 AM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 9:40:03 AM

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I'm not wasting any more time on this. You're looking to be right, not to understand. If you want to dissect and revisit, start with what I said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Sigh.

Folks---inventing silly hypotheticals can make anything ridiculous. What's the point?

The President is the Commander in Chief. What if he goes insane? Should there be a military coup? Perhaps we should add that to the Constitution. And who decides? Or can we trust he has better information?

Forget slave for a moment. I'd expect the same obedience from an employee. No, not at once. I'd cultivate a culture of mutual benefit and trust. Then, I'd expect my team to obey first, ask questions later, and if I've successfully built that trust, they will.

But if the game is just coming up with more hypotheticals, don't overlook "What if aliens have suddenly taken over his brain?"

If I tell a slave to do something, even if it doesn't make sense to her, I expect her to trust there must be a good reason. Or an employee. Or a soldier.

Now, if I start developing a pattern of nutty decisions, fine, different story.

But in this scenario? She'd better strip, and not even hesitate first.

If that makes a girl foolish to you, there's a world of vanilla waiting for you, no worries.

But wait! What if there's a psycho who is only thrown off balance by the sight of naked flesh, and he goes off to kill half the city??!!! Don't forget that one!!!

From which, after a few circular exchanges, you concluded:

quote:

ORIGINAL: antinomy
Edited to add: I really had no idea you had been elected to speak for everyone else on the board. Thanks, though, for letting them know I'm no longer welcome by you. I'm sorry if I hit a nerve, but sheesh...do you so easily dismiss everyone that sees things differently?

It saddens me that you're a teacher of anything. If you're unable or unwilling to see the contradiction, check with your local community college--perhaps the philosophy department offers a beginning course in logic. You're on your own, so you can get in your last dig in lieu of logic. Enjoy.

(in reply to antinomy)

RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 9:50:30 AM

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Seems to me that you're the one being just a tad bit condescending here MM...

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(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 10:12:10 AM

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More than a tad.

Here's a study guide.

Start with issues framed as false dilemmas. From there, "logic" built on them doesn't stand.

That fallacious mindset also throws out from the start any sense of controlled risk, let alone reasonably safe precautions.

It shuts down debate, leaving open the endless string of "Well yeah but what ifs," even when that's readily addressed.

Absolutely condescending. It's self-righteous bullshit. Another "What if" is always possible--and irrelevant.

Now, that someone else would decide not for them, fine. Nor would I or have I insult[ed] their intelligence or choices.

That's not the case here, though. "People decide differently than I, so they're dangerous and stupid" ignores a wealth of realistic possibilities in the middle. The false dilemma people are clinging to so self-righteously.

It's a big world out there. Much of it cannot be seen from one's mirror.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 2/24/2010 10:16:22 AM >

(in reply to Aileen1968)

RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 10:18:42 AM

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It's not self righteous bullshit. Have you ever stopped to think of the perspective of the one who will suffer the consequences?
We have to assume that it is a non kink restaurant. Otherwise there wouldn't be an issue. I find it incredibly hard to believe that there is a large number of submissives here that would, without hesitation, stand up and strip in the middle of Ruth's Chris Steakhouse based on a command. If you have that in your relationships and that's what you enjoy doing then by all means enjoy. But please don't be condescending to others who balk at that concept.
Believe it or not...it really doesn't make us less submissive especially when we have instructions to question things that we see as being irrational.

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RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 10:21:27 AM

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We are going in circles in circles in circles. I and others have addressed this multiple times.

You continually assume "victims" who don't exist.

That's because everything in this "argument" is either/or, a false dilemma with no possibilities in the middle.

That should trouble your radar for irrational arguments.

(in reply to Aileen1968)

RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 10:23:33 AM

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And you sound just as irrational believing that there wouldn't be consequences.
And I never once mentioned victims.

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RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 10:28:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968
tart
And you sound just as irrational believing that there wouldn't be consequences.

That's because, in your either/or false dilemma mindset, reasonable precautions aren't a possibility. Starting from a logical fallacy, you're not going to be able to attain logical conclusions.

quote:

And I never once mentioned victims.

Bullshit:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

the perspective of the one who will suffer the consequences?

Sure sounds like a victim.

Of course, there haven't been any of those. Yet you irrationally cling to it.

(in reply to Aileen1968)

RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 10:32:22 AM

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The possibility of consequences always exists. Even in nilla sex -- missionary position with the lights out -- condoms can break, and women can ovulate even if they're on The Shot.

The whole point behind RACK is to know how likely the consequences are, and to decide how much of a risk you're willing to run.

Frankly, I hear people on this thread being strident in two opposite directions. Group one: I would never take any risks of any sort, 100% safe and sane baby, and the fact that you're a risk taker means you're an idiot, or a menace to society. Group two: I know how to create a strip-situation with acceptable risk of negative consequences, so I'm a more awesome kinkster than you are, you lameass.

I don't see either attitude as particularly helpful.

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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
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(in reply to Aileen1968)

RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 10:36:27 AM

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I'm trying to figure out where you're coming up with this "false dilemma" concept.
It's much more logical to think that there would be consequences to standing up in the middle of a restaurant and stripping than not.
And it's much more logical to think that even you "uber" doms don't have enough power to control all vanilla situations to you liking.
If the whole idea that you can pull this off without any thing negative happening to your woman makes you feel great then go and do it.
Take that risk.. Actually. Let her take that risk because that's what this boils down to.
There is a risk to all of this and it ain't you taking it.
Easy to give that direction. Much harder to do it.

Have a nice day. I'm done.

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(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 10:39:32 AM

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quote:

so I'm a more awesome kinkster than you are, you lameass.

For what it's worth, this is NOT my position.

Nor do I have any problem with this:

quote:

I would never take any risks of any sort, 100% safe and sane baby,

I definitely disagree with this, however--

quote:

and the fact that you're a risk taker means you're an idiot, or a menace to society.

because one can...

quote:

create a strip-situation with acceptable risk of negative consequences

"Group One" can't seem to accept that, embracing only either/or, safe or dangerous views of the world.

They're wrong. The world is far more complex and nuanced.

(in reply to RedMagic1)

RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 10:41:09 AM

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quote:

I'm trying to figure out where you're coming up with this "false dilemma" concept.

http://www.answers.com/topic/false-dilemma

(in reply to Aileen1968)

RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 10:51:18 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

And I expect obedience, tempered with intelligence

Jeff

How about just "tempered"?????

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RE: If you told your slave - 2/24/2010 10:53:23 AM

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~FR~(without having waded through the umpteen pages)

If Jonnie went with the scenario described in the op..

I'd be SO gone.

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