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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 3:05:27 PM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily

So again, I ask the question: Why is this ok?

Simply, because it's supported, many times by the so-called "dominants" themselves who gladly rise to the occasion of feeding the ego-centric thrill ride of the brat—in turn becoming nothing more than enablers of bad behavior. A casual glance at the misinformation often diffused and parroted by the mainstream is another culprit behind this persona, I suspect.

Still, these matters are so relative from person to person. Some consider it fun and ideal, even. I personally have not the time for anyone who does not understand what submission really is. I know many brats like the idea of being "taken down" harshly after mouthing off, but this has always smacked of insincerity and game playing in my mind, as if their "gift" of submission is nothing more than a charade.

< Message edited by amayos -- 4/4/2006 3:34:40 PM >

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

Post #: 41

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 3:13:08 PM

wytchywoman

Posts: 510
Joined: 2/27/2006
From: Southeastern Michigan
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne

If the people involved in the relationship are fine with the "brat" then by all means its ok. When it spills over onto others in a public situation it is just rude, of course I have never done well with brats. The last time somebody played the brat card with me they wound up locked in the closet with a bottle of water and a bucket to pee in. The next day when they got out they had decided I was more than they had bargained for, lol.

K

I keep repeating myself here. I did say I used to spend a lot of time on IRC and there are channels on IRC specifically to encourage "brats". Granted, most likely those are only online players. I also said that in real life role-playing a "brat" can be fun if my owner wants to play the same game. However, if you really ran into a real life brat who acted like a brat in a public situation, I'm surprised you stopped at locking in her in a closet with a bucket to pee in. Seems to me you should have put some pull-ups on her (training pants). -wink-

(in reply to PlayfulOne)

Post #: 42

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 3:17:32 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

it really depends on what your definition of "BRAT" is.

I agree the term does often have a negative conetation to it, but not always. some bratiness if you will is more playful and fun as comparied to spoiled attention getting behavior. I am not to quick to assume what another person determines the word to mean. What makes it really confusing is that often people use the term to describe both sets of behaviors, both meaning the Postive side as well as the negative side of the coin. I suppose it would be easier if we all used the exact same word for the exact same behaviors, but then of course we would have to perceive the specific behaviors the same way to use that exact word. So, really often it doesn't make sense to put to much into a specific word.... instead have a dialogue of words. We tend to do better than just listening to a single word.

This leads me to my second point... who are you to determine what bratty behavior is acceptable for others in their D/s relationship and what is not? If they are happy in their relationship with the behaviors and all... why do you care. No one is forcing you to be friends with them. You don't even have to talk to them if you don't want to. If they want to mix it in with their D/s... who are you to say it's wrong for them. Obviously it's wrong for you. But, frankly your going past that line and calling it simply wrong! So wrong that you could throw up. So I guess when you have the universal expertice of all things D/s I suppose you can state what is ok for others and isn't ok for others.

Now for me personally. I don't want a submissive that is bratty in an attention getting or self-serving manner. My girls are both very playful. BUT, actually very few ever see it. Simply this playful nature is private with me and a few good friends. My girls are very aware of the appropriate behaviors I want and enjoy. I really don't give a shit how others behave. I don't care what other Dominants let their property do or not do, that is there choice not mine. However, when I interact with people. I have some minor expectations on how they would behave with me and how I will behave with them. If our personalities do not click, welll it's very easy, I just don't socialize with them or them with me.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

Post #: 43

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 3:25:50 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: valeca

Wow, Lily. You're a biter, aren't you? So much for the social niceties.

I think that's what they call a "Bratty Sub"

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 4/4/2006 3:26:27 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to valeca)

Post #: 44

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 3:31:15 PM

PlayfulOne

Posts: 1047
Status: offline

Knight,

Exactly, we have a very playful relationship and enjoy teasing and laughter. It never crosses my mind to label our interactions as "bratty" on her part. I couldn't function if I had to discard my playful side.

When it is done simply as a way to get attention, or a desired effect then it becomes a problem

K

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 45

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 3:36:31 PM

PlayfulOne

Posts: 1047
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wytchywoman

quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne

If the people involved in the relationship are fine with the "brat" then by all means its ok. When it spills over onto others in a public situation it is just rude, of course I have never done well with brats. The last time somebody played the brat card with me they wound up locked in the closet with a bottle of water and a bucket to pee in. The next day when they got out they had decided I was more than they had bargained for, lol.

K

I keep repeating myself here. I did say I used to spend a lot of time on IRC and there are channels on IRC specifically to encourage "brats". Granted, most likely those are only online players. I also said that in real life role-playing a "brat" can be fun if my owner wants to play the same game. However, if you really ran into a real life brat who acted like a brat in a public situation, I'm surprised you stopped at locking in her in a closet with a bucket to pee in. Seems to me you should have put some pull-ups on her (training pants). -wink-

It wasn't in public, it was in my home. It was with someone who thought they wanted a D/s relationship with me. One day I was busy trying to make a deadline and told her I couldn't be bothered until I was finsihed. She couldn't wait and wanted attention right then so she slapped me in the back of the head. I turned from the computer and asked "WTF?". She said I guess I jsut need a spanking.. She received a punishment but it was not anything she expected.

K

(in reply to wytchywoman)

Post #: 46

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 3:41:46 PM

wytchywoman

Posts: 510
Joined: 2/27/2006
From: Southeastern Michigan
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne

quote:

ORIGINAL: wytchywoman

quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne

If the people involved in the relationship are fine with the "brat" then by all means its ok. When it spills over onto others in a public situation it is just rude, of course I have never done well with brats. The last time somebody played the brat card with me they wound up locked in the closet with a bottle of water and a bucket to pee in. The next day when they got out they had decided I was more than they had bargained for, lol.

K

I keep repeating myself here. I did say I used to spend a lot of time on IRC and there are channels on IRC specifically to encourage "brats". Granted, most likely those are only online players. I also said that in real life role-playing a "brat" can be fun if my owner wants to play the same game. However, if you really ran into a real life brat who acted like a brat in a public situation, I'm surprised you stopped at locking in her in a closet with a bucket to pee in. Seems to me you should have put some pull-ups on her (training pants). -wink-

It wasn't in public, it was in my home. It was with someone who thought they wanted a D/s relationship with me. One day I was busy trying to make a deadline and told her I couldn't be bothered until I was finsihed. She couldn't wait and wanted attention right then so she slapped me in the back of the head. I turned from the computer and asked "WTF?". She said I guess I jsut need a spanking.. She received a punishment but it was not anything she expected.

K

Oh my! Good for you, then! I thought you were referring to someone acting like a brat in public. Well, that behavior is an obvious ploy for attention that goes beyond "role playing" a brat. I can only imagine what my owner would have done if I had slapped him upside of the head if only in role play.

Don't think I'll ever test it...not ever.

(in reply to PlayfulOne)

Post #: 47

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 3:41:50 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

She couldn't wait and wanted attention right then so she slapped me in the back of the head.

Damn. You must have the patience of Job. You call that a brat? I call that kicked in the ass and dismissed.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to PlayfulOne)

Post #: 48

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 3:44:16 PM

wytchywoman

Posts: 510
Joined: 2/27/2006
From: Southeastern Michigan
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

She couldn't wait and wanted attention right then so she slapped me in the back of the head.

Damn. You must have the patience of Job. You call that a brat? I call that kicked in the ass and dismissed.

Celeste

-nods- Totally agree with you there! I only play "brat" in role-play and only when my owner is in the mood. Not even during role-play would I ever consider slapping him upside of the head.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 49

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 3:52:27 PM

saltygoodness27

Posts: 28
Joined: 12/22/2005
Status: offline

OP, it seems to me that you've settled the debate of what a sub truly is for all of us, and we should thank you for that. Obviously, no one should self-indentify as a sub, unless they meet your standards and your definitions. Thanks for clearing that up for the rest of up.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

Post #: 50

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 3:54:17 PM

PlayfulOne

Posts: 1047
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

She couldn't wait and wanted attention right then so she slapped me in the back of the head.

Damn. You must have the patience of Job. You call that a brat? I call that kicked in the ass and dismissed.

Celeste

LOL, Ms Celeste,
Patience I am not so sure about, I do try not to make rash responses in anger. The trip to the closet was as much to give me time to calm as it was to punish her.
She was a sweet girl and we were friendly. She wanted to know whether she was a submissive or just bedroom kinky so after discussion I took her in. I already knew the answer, but I thought at the time it was better she discovered the truth under me than having someone attempt to beat her into a submissive.

K

< Message edited by PlayfulOne -- 4/4/2006 3:59:00 PM >

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 51

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 3:55:43 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

Some people believe that pain must have a component of punishment to justify it. Others see pain as its own reward. I am one of the latter. I prefer a more direct approach, i.e. "Sir, would you consider giving me a thorough ass whuppin' tonight?" Then wait hopefully for a positve response! (and he has never said 'no' *grin*)
I find dominants who refer to any pain play as "punishment" just as irksome as bratty subs. However, I do believe the goal is the same although the path to that goal is different.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

Post #: 52

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 4:03:30 PM

SirPrize

Posts: 31
Joined: 11/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily

While I appreciate what you are saying, you are doing the "Everyone's Beautiful" dance around my point. And that's ok. But that doesn't mean while you are being a man who enjoys what ever it is he enjoys in the name of kink and I'm a woman who is doing what she enjoys in the name of kink, there are some assholes kicking around here doing things that aren't right. And I'm sure that they are right for themselves, but while you can posit all you want that what ever we are doing and what ever we call it is just dandy, all societies and cultures, (and regardless of what you want to say, we are a cultural subset of the aggregate) have traditions, rituals, governing laws and mores. To suggest that we have none of those would not only be wrong, but completely misleading.

We have traditions. They are quickly being lost at an unhearalded rate because what ever anyone does is just fine anymore, but to suggest that we don't have some basic rules of order and traditions upon which they have been born on, is just wrong.

Kassie

---------------
I'm sorry, but I disagree completely. You say we have traditions which are being lost. What traditions are those? YOUR traditions? I guarantee that most of the individuals on here all have their traditions, and all of them are different. And at the risk of being "wrong, but completely misleading", I completely reject that we have rituals, governing laws, and mores. Those are individual things as well. I go to Paddles, there are rules. I go to Hellfire (boy am I dating myself), there are completely different rules. I go to a private party, different rules again. At Paddles, bratiness is not only condoned, it's encouraged. I find it a bit offputting, but would never tell them they are not entitled to play their way. As long as there are do-me subs, and "doms' who will accomodate anything, you are going to get behavior that many don't find particularly bdsmish. But to call it wrong is a value judgment I'm not willing to accept. I can do what works for me. I can choose to associate with people who feel the same as I do. I can even growl under my breath about what other people call bdsm, and I do. But even if I don't consider what they do to be what I do, that doesn't make me right and them wrong.

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

Post #: 53

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 4:08:05 PM

Clothespingirl

Posts: 82
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

One Bratty sub in the hand is worth two Bitchy subs in the bushes....if you want Fastlane's opinion?

Wheee, fastlane! <checks fastlane's profile> Darn it, you're STILL way up there in Maryland! Oh well, at least I can still get the drive-by snark

_____________________________

"Cheeky bitch"

(in reply to fastlane)

Post #: 54

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 4:26:09 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily
We have traditions. They are quickly being lost at an unhearalded rate because what ever anyone does is just fine anymore, but to suggest that we don't have some basic rules of order and traditions upon which they have been born on, is just wrong.

We have traditions?? I wasn't aware that anyone had set any traditions for me to follow, nor do I recall participating in forming any traditions. Apparently the old leather groups once had some...But I was never officially sworn in, so I don't think they care if I follow them or not.

You may have traditions...We don't have traditions. What we have is terminology that is loosely defined, and a basic concept that each individual gets to work to suit their own reality.

As many others have said here, I don't know why some people act like brats, or why some doms enjoy it. (I have some theories...) I do know that any indivudual who acts in a way that is uncomfortable for me, is someone I don't bother getting to know.

Personally, I feel I have enough on my hands defining my own reality, no need to go around defining others for them. That's their job. They can choose any label they want and it makes me no nevermind.

Cin

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

Post #: 55

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 4:29:39 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos
as if their "gift" of submission is nothing more than a charade.

Danger Will Robinson!!

Amayos said the "g" word!!!

Cin <~ demonstrating bratty behaviour for any who were in doubt as to its meaning

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 56

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 4:30:09 PM

AngelaK

Posts: 101
Joined: 2/27/2006
Status: offline

Brat sub, slave or........
I think there is another issue too, in that when I was new, because I loved to be beaten everyone told me I was a sub -- albiet a smart-mouthed, sassy, asking-for a butt-whipping sub but I was never rude or disrespectful. Since then I've figured out that I'm not really a sub at all. I'm a MASOCHIST. How very freeing! I can be the sarcastic wench that I am so naturally and still come right out and ask someone to beat me until my back and ass looks like a road map to Chile. I've continued to develop because I like to inflict pain too, which, contrary to what some people would tell me does not make me a Domme either. Sometimes if the shoe doesn't fit, it's because it's not your size.

_____________________________

AngelaK
_______
When choosing between two evils, I always like to pick the one I never tried before.

Mae West

Spanking is love, and scolding is affection.

Chinese Proverb

(in reply to Clothespingirl)

Post #: 57

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 4:30:46 PM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily

We could posit and theorize til the cows come home, but bottom line is that when the rubber hits the road, submission isn't about being the one in control or the one with the power. Unless of course I missed something...

Well said, Lily.

I'll repost a couple of thoughts of this:

"Submit: 'to yield oneself to the authority or will of another'..... 'to defer to or consent to abide by the opinion or authority of another'....taken from Merriam-Webster's dictionary.

Words mean something. We can decide to call ourselves whatever we wish, but that alone does not make it so. I can start saying that my car is purple, but it's still going to be silver.

The problem, at least the way I see it, is that we've put too much of a gold-standard on certain types here. Being a "kinky sex player" is, or should be, a wondeful thing! But too often too many folks look down on it. "It isn't real". Bullshit! It is real, and exciting. Is it submission?? Maybe not...............but so?"

A submissive submits. If they act bratty, and the dominant likes it, then so be it. But if it is a cause of friction, then they, in my opinion, are not submissives, but just plain asses.

< Message edited by Level -- 4/4/2006 4:31:56 PM >

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)

Post #: 58

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 4:40:48 PM

wytchywoman

Posts: 510
Joined: 2/27/2006
From: Southeastern Michigan
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

We have traditions?? I wasn't aware that anyone had set any traditions for me to follow, nor do I recall participating in forming any traditions. Apparently the old leather groups once had some...But I was never officially sworn in, so I don't think they care if I follow them or not.

Personally, I feel I have enough on my hands defining my own reality, no need to go around defining others for them. That's their job. They can choose any label they want and it makes me no nevermind.

Cin

Good point! There are no "traditions" in this lifestyle that we lead other than the ones we make up. Other than those who can really call themselves "Old Guard". Those would be gay WWII vets who had a very established heirachy. I have expressed an inteterest in Old Guard in my own profile...not because I claim to live it or have any connection to it, but rather what they did interests me and does command respect for what they did in their own time.

They established protocol before anyone wanted to give them the right to breathe. They did it and never made apologies for it. They were (are) what they are, and I seriously doubt that if any of them that are stilll alive and wandered onto this site would even recognize that what we are now chatting about has anything to do with what they started and made their own.

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

Post #: 59

RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/4/2006 4:52:11 PM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wytchywoman
They established protocol before anyone wanted to give them the right to breathe. They did it and never made apologies for it. They were (are) what they are, and I seriously doubt that if any of them that are stilll alive and wandered onto this site would even recognize that what we are now chatting about has anything to do with what they started and made their own.

I know that there are some in the gay community that still relate to the Old Guard. I've met a few, myself. They definitely don't expect everyone to adopt their ways. As a matter of fact they tend to enjoy being somewhat exclusive.

Many of the Old Guard traditions were brought about, I believe, because of the need to be discreet and to protect themselves from being outed to regular society.

I'm very curious as to what Lily meant by traditions in her post.

Cin

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to wytchywoman)

Post #: 60

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