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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 4:51:31 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
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Hmmm, its fine to be a "bratty bottom" but being a "bratty sub" is "particularly disrespectful of the rest of us who are putting forth an effort to behave."

So, if I understand you correctly, there is a catachism of difference between "bottom" and "sub."


(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 5:41:55 AM   
foxnotinsox


Posts: 84
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: eastern Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

... someone actually said "I'm not a slave, I'm a bratty sub." <snip>
Perhaps, it's that people don't have the vocabulary to indicate exactly what they are. <snip>  but when you start mixing your D/s and your SM and come out with 'bratty subs' and the like, I start to throw up a little. <snip>
I have never liked 'bratty submissives', especially the ones who make it a point to be a brat for the attention value (oh come now, you know exactly what I'm talking about).
<snip again>
While you can be what ever you want, for those of us who actually have taken BDSM from the fantasy 'what if' stage of exisiting solely on message boards to the reality phase of actually practicing in some variant of what's known as BDSM, the non-dominant women who think it's fun to brat it up are, in my opinion, not only a pain in the ass, but particularly disrespectful of the rest of us who are putting forth an effort to behave.

So again, I ask the question: Why is this ok?


Hmmm it is OK because whatever labels we wish to put on ourselves are OK. Yet you speak of brats as a bad thing, something beyond your limit, a behaviour of which you have little tolerance. Soooooooo <evil grin> I shall play devil's advocate and fool around a lil with this.....

Me, I've been called a brat from time to time, or even a SAM, but I would not term myself as either, as I am not acting out to get attention nor am I acting up to get beaten. What I am doing is #1 being myself and #2 testing. Yes, testing =) ... and the way I am on the boards is the way I am in public, whether vanilla or scene-related. I am trained and paid to spot discrepancies .. and get them fixed. So I question .. and gosh how dare a submissive question a dominant! heheh .. and I use humour, so I quip ;] .. I am fast on my feet with a sharp comeback .... yeah, some cannot handle it, and so use putdowns ... either by name-calling or tone of language .. to attempt to bring me down.

Yeah, right....

If I am out in public, I frolic ... playful and joyous. I flirt and tease .. again, some do not like it .. but there are many who can connect with my positive energy. The others? meh .. life is too short.

As for the question of how the heck can "brat" and "submissive" go together, wellllll I think they can. For a person is not a static thing but fluid, and especially a submissive who is responding to their environment. When I am with a Partner, He is the one I respond most to, my focus on Him. If I am playful (see? that sounds more positive than "being a brat"), and He is enjoying it and playing off of it, hmmmmm then what business is it of yours to be involved with our scene? Just like any other parts of a scene, if it offends you, ignore it, turn away, walk away. If it is tooooo offensive, you can always leave .. or speak with the host/ess .. or talk with DMs if they are available .. or even speak with the Top, if possible. Rather than complaining, do something positive.

Personally, rather than term myself a brat or a SAM, I came up with something else I rather like .. and that is WUS (Witty Uppity Sub). Yes, I will test .. as I am certain my Partner will heheh .. and it *does* tie in with my submission in that I like to at times struggle with it .. be forced into it .. and that makes it all the more hot and yummy =]

So I would ask, "What is wrong with that?"

Have a wonderful day!
oxox,foX
Veni vidi veni

< Message edited by foxnotinsox -- 4/5/2006 5:43:55 AM >

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 6:10:10 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

OP, it seems to me that you've settled the debate of what a sub truly is for all of us, and we should thank you for that. Obviously, no one should self-indentify as a sub, unless they meet your standards and your definitions. Thanks for clearing that up for the rest of up.


And yet again from the peanut gallery....

If you want to redefine what it means to be submissive, go right ahead. But don't expect me and the rest of us who are serious about this (and I'm not talking the internet idea of 24/7 chained by the door naked all the time waiting for the Dom/me to show up from work) to jump on your 'anything goes' bandwagon.

And that WAS my point. While the rest of you are protecting your rights to act how ever the fuck you want to and call it submissive, it's not submissive. I can call a duck a dog all I want and jump up and down and tell everyone who says differantly to go fuck themselves, but in the end a duck ain't a dog. Never gonna happen.

My point is also there seems to be this idea that in order to enjoy SM there's a pressure to take on the identifier of 'submissive', as if there's something wrong with just being kinky.

I know my share of just kinky folks who don't have or don't want the D/s component in their lives. And they certainly don't identify as Dominants and Submissives, or any variants of them.




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(in reply to saltygoodness27)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 6:17:44 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
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quote:

Oh yes, I am a big fan of debate. I even took debate and several philosophy classes that I didn't need, simply because it was refreshing to have wonderful, intellectual debates. The disagreement wasn't what angered me. *smiles* What angered me was the fact that apparently, Lilly has no regard at all for other opinions. Only Lilly can be right. Of course.


Really? Please, detail how you came to this analysis. You are wrong, just so you know. But enlighten us all with your countless philosophy classes and debate style so that I, and the rest of us, can see the error in our ways...




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(in reply to masochistecstacy)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 6:30:35 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		ShiftedJewel,

Thank you, thank you, thank you! It's refreshing to see someone who actually got it, and you included the others who did as well in the body of your post.

So, now if the problem to some degree is the fact that there's become a hierarchical pecking order of BDSM, with Slaves and Masters being the apex, Doms and Subs being the middle ground and Tops and Bottoms or Kink Players or Sadists and Masochists or any other label that indicates the fact that these pairings or individuals are sans a power exchange, how do we fix that? (~I am not advocating for or suggesting that this heirarchy is either correct or rational; I'm simply using it as an example)

And I agree, without a catagory indicator for folks who are just Tops and Bottoms (or any of the above variants) here on CM, folks are basically forced into signing up for a power exchange component when they aren't looking for one.

L


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(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 7:01:27 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
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quote:

So, now if the problem to some degree is the fact that there's become a hierarchical pecking order of BDSM, with Slaves and Masters being the apex, Doms and Subs being the middle ground and Tops and Bottoms or Kink Players or Sadists and Masochists or any other label that indicates the fact that these pairings or individuals are sans a power exchange, how do we fix that?


I don't believe there is a "fix" to it... like everything in life, we do what we can to educate and plants seeds... they'll either take root and flourish or die where they land.
 
As far as traditions or rules or whatever people wish to call them, well, I guess for some they live on, for some they morph into something similar but skewed and for some they never existed. But I do agree with you Lil... they did exist and still do to people like us. For instance... when we go to a munch our girl knows how we expect her to behave. Now, a lot of people are going to say that they know how to behave in public... sorry, I disagree. Our group is a large one and there is such a huge variety of behaviors. There are owned subs that openly make out and grope each other, dominants that caress subs that are owned by others along with other behaviors that I personally do not approve of and please keep in mind, this takes place in a vanilla venue. It just isn't the way I was taught over two decades ago.
 
No, there isn't any rules set in stone, nothing is written down or legislated. But they do exist. Traditions or rules, IMNSHO, includes not touching, approaching or "hitting on" a collared sub/slave, yes, it's a matter of honor, no, it isn't just "common sense", it's a rule and just because it isn't written down doesn't make it null.

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(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 7:11:08 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		i'm using "fast reply" so i am not replying to anyone in particular here.  And quite honestly i did not have the time to read the entire thread, but i wanted to toss my 2 cents in, wherever they land.

i use Merriam Webster's definition of brat:  1 a : CHILD; specifically : an ill-mannered annoying child b : an ill-mannered immature person
 
To me, that is not "cute" or "playful" or "charming" or....  That is just what it says - annoying.  No less annoying than bratty children screaming while running around in restaurants.   Maybe we have different definitions of "annoy," so looked that up also:  1 : to disturb or irritate especially by repeated acts.

Again, i find nothing charming about that.  i see bratty people occasionally, be they submissive, dominant, vanilla, alien...whatever.  i find that character trait to be annoying to me, personally.  As a slave, i represent my Master's tastes, in part by the way i behave publically, and toward others.  He would find it displeasing and disrespectful if i were a brat.  Actually, he would find it nothing at all because he wouldn't own a brat!

Regardless, considering the definition of brat, it is not something i personally would strive for or take pride in.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 8:40:24 AM   
acctonthelook


Posts: 245
Joined: 3/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: masochistecstacy

Yeah, I identify myself as a bratty submissive sometimes. Why is this okay? Because it's simply a part of my Love and I's play. I tease Him, provoke Him, resist Him sometimes... Not always, but sometimes. I do it because we both enjoy it. I enjoy being put in my place, and He enjoys putting me there. But at the end of the day? I'm His. He is my Love, my Dom, my Master... We haven't decided on a particular title yet, Lol. He has my obedience when we are serious. His first rule to me was that when on my knees, I am completely obedient. As simple as that, His voice will become serious and He orders me to my knees. The playful, teasing, brattiness drops instantly, and I am on my kness for the Love of my life, the Man who owns me, mind, body, spirit, heart, and soul. I am a submissive because I, let's see, what was the word used earlier, oh yes, I give myself to Him. Brattiness does not define me. It is a part of me that we use in play. Not always... but sometimes.

I agree with this entirely.  Sometimes it is just play.  The enjoyment of it all but in the end I too give myself.  I would never be a brat to the point of disrepect.  I would never hit my master up side the head!  Wow, very gutsy sub there.  I agree with the dismissel factor there stated by Bitatruble. That's just going to far.  For me it's a fine line, I would not want to over step. 
 
I liked the post from fullofgrace:

i used to have bratty tendencies, just because i like to see how far i can go at times, but then i learned that it's much easier and classier to just ask nicely for the whipping. 

This is CLASS!  I like it and will keep it in mind when the unconcious part of my mind wants to act out purely for attention.  There's nothing more classy and eloquent than just asking for what we need instead of using a tactic to get there.  Yes, at times it's fun in play but to do it to obtain something that's needed is not being honest.  I love the honesty in this lifestyle and your statement gives me freedom to be so in a much more direct manner.  I do think that when being bratty is used for attention it really says we are cowards in our honesty and ability to trust.  So to me your statement can allow for both honesty and trust between a master and his sub.  Thank you!
 
 Well put, I enjoy everyones' posts - good, positives, bad and the ugly debates re: old guard.  Whew, I thought that was going to spiral out of control.
 
I thoroughly enjoy the banter on the subjects and helps me more each day in my understanding of myself and in the best way to serve my master that hopefully I will find someday. 

(in reply to masochistecstacy)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 10:31:05 AM   
masochistecstacy


Posts: 41
Joined: 2/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Really? Please, detail how you came to this analysis. You are wrong, just so you know. But enlighten us all with your countless philosophy classes and debate style so that I, and the rest of us, can see the error in our ways...


What? No reasons why I 'm wrong? Yeah, that's what I was expecting anyway. To be shot down, hard, fast, cold, unreasonably. No, I'm not wrong. It's my opinion, and despite what you think, we're all entitled to our opinions. As for your sarcasm? I can be sarcastic as the next person. I rather enjoy it to. As I used to tell my parents when they'd tell me not to be sarcastic... I'm so good at it. I have no intention of telling you how wrong you are, or, as you put it, "enlightening you with my countless philosophy classes and debate style." Not only would it be presumptuous of me, it would also be rather rude. *smiles warmly*

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(in reply to acctonthelook)
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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 10:40:47 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

What? No reasons why I 'm wrong? Yeah, that's what I was expecting anyway. To be shot down, hard, fast, cold, unreasonably. No, I'm not wrong. It's my opinion, and despite what you think, we're all entitled to our opinions. As for your sarcasm? I can be sarcastic as the next person. I rather enjoy it to. As I used to tell my parents when they'd tell me not to be sarcastic... I'm so good at it. I have no intention of telling you how wrong you are, or, as you put it, "enlightening you with my countless philosophy classes and debate style." Not only would it be presumptuous of me, it would also be rather rude. *smiles warmly*


You know, dear, if I were going to call you out on your behavior, which I am not, but if I were, I'd say you were a real bitch. But of course, I'm too mannered to actually say that.

Enjoy your day.


_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to masochistecstacy)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 10:54:34 AM   
masochistecstacy


Posts: 41
Joined: 2/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

You know, dear, if I were going to call you out on your behavior, which I am not, but if I were, I'd say you were a real bitch. But of course, I'm too mannered to actually say that.


Oh, that hurt me. Cut oh so deep. How can I go on knowing that you think I'm a bitch? *rolls eyes, mock wails*

You know, it's kinda funny, how you're not calling me out on my behavior, that you're too mannered to say it, and yet... There it is. I'm a bitch. How did you know I like puppy play?!

Oh, by the way... You still didn't tell me why I'm wrong. Nice.

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 11:10:39 AM   
Mikesbeth


Posts: 15
Joined: 3/30/2006
Status: offline 		IMHO, being bratty to an accepting Dom in the course of submitting is far more tollerable and acceptable than calling someone a bitch who asking a question of the person who solicited an opinion.  I'm wondering how calling people names is an effort to behave.

Calling names....Seems like it fits the definition of Brat.
 

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 11:21:45 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		So dont invite them to parties, dont have them over for tea. But please dont stand on a soap box, riding a high horse, atop a ivory tower, looking down at them, because elitism, and one true waysism, hurts the whole community imo.
 
Any one practicing power exchange has the right to define for them selves what the power is, and what they are willing to exchange for it. YKINMK (your kink is not my kink) is as old as the hills and is very effective in having a community that is constantly infighting and not really doing much to create strength, identity, safety and education. Maybe you dont want those things but it sounds like from your post you, like most of us, do have a need for this to mean something beyond what it means to just our sex lives, and to me the way to accomplish that is accept everyones differing sexual orreintations...

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(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 11:23:33 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: masochistecstacy
You know, it's kinda funny, how you're not calling me out on my behavior, that you're too mannered to say it, and yet... There it is. I'm a bitch. How did you know I like puppy play?!

Oh, by the way... You still didn't tell me why I'm wrong. Nice.

She was mimicking your previous post and doing exactly what you did with your "it would be rather rude" comment.  By saying something passive aggressively, you're still saying it.

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(in reply to masochistecstacy)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 11:27:17 AM   
Mikesbeth


Posts: 15
Joined: 3/30/2006
Status: offline 		I feel as though this is simply a battle of semantics, definitions and opinions and if we know nothing else, we know how semantics, definitions and opinions can classify, pigeonhole and stereotype people right into the categories of different, wierd or wrong. 

All of it is good if the people involved feel it's good and it doesn't hurt others.  Who cares about the rest? 

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 11:28:22 AM   
masochistecstacy


Posts: 41
Joined: 2/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

She was mimicking your previous post and doing exactly what you did with your "it would be rather rude" comment.  By saying something passive aggressively, you're still saying it.


To be perfectly honest, I really wasn't intending anything by my own comment. I never meant to imply that my skills with debating were better or worse than Lilly's. I meant what I said. No intention of saying anything about her skills in debate. I don't have that right. Was I sarcastic, yes. Was I implying that I was better than her? Not intentionally.

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 11:39:32 AM   
crimsonblood


Posts: 1
Joined: 4/3/2006
Status: offline 		Alright all you happy humble opioninated people...I have not read the entire thread, and I don't plan on it, it's a waste of time, espically if the rest of this is anything like the last few parts I've seen here. Someone asked a question, others responded with their opinions, why, because it was a question that one must respond to with an opinion....it doesn't have a definiate yes or no answer.

I know masochistecstacy very well...we are sisters, twins...and I know how she acts *mutters about how they don't get any brattier* but this isn't why I'm writing.

In my opinion, yes, my OPINION (that means it isn't right, or wrong, just my thoughts) you cannot have a bratty slave, I've been in Gor though and I've seen them...hell, I've been one, but, that does not make me a slave....a slave as explained to me, gave up all of her rights, she literally couldn't eat without a Master's approval, and I just can't see one being very bratty. I only give this information because I cannot speak for being a submissive, I have only ever been in Gor, not BDSM, as a "slave", although I have a feeling that it is much the same.

In my short rt experiences with D/s I have of course been the s in the relationship, I'm not a very dominate person most of the time, though I will be if I need to be....I was very bratty with my D, pushing, and pushing him until he had enough, you can tell it in their voice, so stern, so curt.....very much a cut it out or you'll get beat thing....

I've lost track of myself....I don't think there is such a thing as a bratty slave, nor a bratty submissive either....I think that there is however such a thing as a dynamic relationship.  In that I mean there is a certian part of your relationship where you know when to be playful, or serious, everyone does it, don't deny it. We laugh, we cry, we make love....it's human nature.

Take it for what you will, it's an opinion, nothing more.

(in reply to Mikesbeth)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 11:44:42 AM   
Clothespingirl


Posts: 82
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Ah,  here's a delightful comment on the subject from Sensuous Sadie (from an article originally entitled "I'm a Better Slave Than You Are, Neener Neener!"):

My message to you is that your choice of lifestyle is valid if you are getting something from it. If you need a snappy answer to a stupid comment, feel free to say: "How I conduct my private life is no one's business but my own. Butt out or Sadie said she'd kick your butt." As a repressed minority we should be open minded to all approaches, but sadly many are scared and judgmental. Don't be taken in by people who need to make themselves better than you by putting you down.

[Hey, masochisticecstasy - neat hairstyle!  I never can get those french braids to come out right.]




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(in reply to masochistecstacy)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 11:48:36 AM   
masochistecstacy


Posts: 41
Joined: 2/20/2005
Status: offline 		*huggles -n- snuggles mah sissy*

Me loves mah sissy. Lol. Hey, aren'tcha gonna defend me? *chuckles* It's okay, I already admitted that I can be bratty sometimes.... Shhhh! Don't let my Love hear me say that!

quote:

Hey, masochisticecstasy - neat hairstyle!  I never can get those french braids to come out right.
 
Hee. Thanks! I actually learned how to french braid in order to dress up for the Return of the King premiere!

< Message edited by masochistecstacy -- 4/5/2006 11:52:14 AM >

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 11:53:42 AM   
akisha


Posts: 2071
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline 		well, i think alot of subs that say they are brats or lable themselves as brats aren't truly bratty but more impish and imaginative.
*grins*
i am an imaginative imp. i'd never embarrass or disrespect my Dom or Domme, but i would be saucy and impish to try and get that extra swat or see Him chuckle. Rude and disrrespectful is never a acceptable behavoir, but that little extra butt wiggle when about to be spanked is always kinda fun  hehe

Those that act up and be real brats, i just walk away from. i don't have time for childishness, and really responding to them just encourages the behavoir.

(in reply to Clothespingirl)
Profile   Post #: 100
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