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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 12:22:02 PM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: foxnotinsox

Hmmm it is OK because whatever labels we wish to put on ourselves are OK. Yet you speak of brats as a bad thing, something beyond your limit, a behaviour of which you have little tolerance. Soooooooo <evil grin> I shall play devil's advocate and fool around a lil with this.....

Me, I've been called a brat from time to time, or even a SAM, but I would not term myself as either, as I am not acting out to get attention nor am I acting up to get beaten. What I am doing is #1 being myself and #2 testing. Yes, testing =) ... and the way I am on the boards is the way I am in public, whether vanilla or scene-related. I am trained and paid to spot discrepancies .. and get them fixed. So I question .. and gosh how dare a submissive question a dominant! heheh .. and I use humour, so I quip ;] .. I am fast on my feet with a sharp comeback .... yeah, some cannot handle it, and so use putdowns ... either by name-calling or tone of language .. to attempt to bring me down.

Yeah, right....

If I am out in public, I frolic ... playful and joyous. I flirt and tease .. again, some do not like it .. but there are many who can connect with my positive energy. The others? meh .. life is too short.

As for the question of how the heck can "brat" and "submissive" go together, wellllll I think they can. For a person is not a static thing but fluid, and especially a submissive who is responding to their environment. When I am with a Partner, He is the one I respond most to, my focus on Him. If I am playful (see? that sounds more positive than "being a brat"), and He is enjoying it and playing off of it, hmmmmm then what business is it of yours to be involved with our scene? Just like any other parts of a scene, if it offends you, ignore it, turn away, walk away. If it is tooooo offensive, you can always leave .. or speak with the host/ess .. or talk with DMs if they are available .. or even speak with the Top, if possible. Rather than complaining, do something positive.

Personally, rather than term myself a brat or a SAM, I came up with something else I rather like .. and that is WUS (Witty Uppity Sub). Yes, I will test .. as I am certain my Partner will heheh .. and it *does* tie in with my submission in that I like to at times struggle with it .. be forced into it .. and that makes it all the more hot and yummy =]

So I would ask, "What is wrong with that?"

Have a wonderful day!
oxox,foX
Veni vidi veni


Excellent Post.... Stands and applauds...

Oh and Lil... your quote...

And that WAS my point. While the rest of you are protecting your rights to act how ever the fuck you want to and call it submissive, it's not submissive. I can call a duck a dog all I want and jump up and down and tell everyone who says differantly to go fuck themselves, but in the end a duck ain't a dog. Never gonna happen.


Funny it seems  that you can call a duck a dog... and tell all us others to go fuck our selves.... because we don't fall into wht YOU personally would call a submissive.... well.. I don't give a flying rats ass what you think of who is and who is not a submissive.. by YOUR way of seeing things. Your way of seeing things... doesn't fly by me to damn easily either.. because I personally think anyone who doesn't like the way I act or talk.. can just ignore the hell out of me and make life easier. As a submissive... it's not my job to show other submissive how to be submissive.. or how to act... it's my job to enjoy my life.. and have the one who would be the one I submit to happy. Not yours.. not any other sub/slave or Dom/me. Just as in vanilla life as BDSM.. how I act will not always be to someones liking.. I am not gonna spend my life trying to make the whole world happy and unhappy myself.

If one is just kinky.. and they want to call it submissive... big damn deal.. let them have their fun. It won't take long for a Dom/me to figure out they're just into kink and have someone to play with for awhile, or move on.

But you... like me... and yes... like me... say what you want.. when you... to whom you want... this doesn't make either one of us more or less submissive than the other. Where I'll tell my owner to go to hell.. you may not.. doesn't mean nothing to no one.. but the one that owns me... not you.. not KoM.. Misstress... MH... Owned... Angelic.. (just a few examples there, not ment to be directed to any one person) but it still doesn't mean i'm not submissive... and just into kink.. because i'm open minded.. that is also... why I KNOW i'm submissive... and not a slave... because I know how I am.... and will always be. Not all submissive will think, do  or say things that I will... still doesn't mean either are more or less submissive than the other either.

So sense I disagree with the most of your posting.... I agreed with some... but basically.. you're no more right.. and no more wrong... than anyone else here stating their opinions as well.

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(in reply to foxnotinsox)
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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 12:38:11 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline 		Thank you, Jewel, for taking the time to write what I was too tired to write.  This does harken back to that "definitions thread which was an all out war!
 
quote:

In reality, and I've been beat up for this before... words have specific meanings. I don't see where you said at any point that being a brat was/is wrong... identifying as a brat was/is wrong or that behaving as a brat was/is wrong. What I understood you to be saying is that it's ok to be a brat but that in your opinion that just doesn't equal submissive. Choosing "bottom" or even "bratty bottom" seems more appropiate to me and there isn't a damn thing wrong with that choice. All you are asking is why they don't say what they mean, right? 
 
It makes it much harder for Me to find My boy, when there is so much confusion as to what is "being submissive" vs, what is "being a bottom".  I, also, find nothing wrong with anyone who chooses a different way.  But, as much as people want to object to labels, words do need to have some sort of definition.  By example, wrong impressions are given every day, which just makes it harder for people to be on a same page. 
I get too many boys who want to "serve" Me, but don't want to be "that much of a submissive" or don't want to be "such an extreme slave".  A submissive is a submissive is a submissive, and a slave is a slave is a slave.  It comes down to limits.  IMO, those  limits should not have to begin with "how much of a submissive are you?"

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Hmmm, its fine to be a "bratty bottom" but being a "bratty sub" is "particularly disrespectful of the rest of us who are putting forth an effort to behave."

So, if I understand you correctly, there is a catachism of difference between "bottom" and "sub."




Yes, cloudboy, there is.  In fact, I can make it real simple here and say that there is, or should be, no such thing as a "bratty sub".  Although it has already been done, the next definition which needs attention is "brat". Bratty behavior has already been defined and footnoted.  Yet there are people here who continue to argue that labels don't matter, and if they want to call themselves a brat, or call themselves a bratty submissive, it's nobody else's business. 
I beg to differ.  And this is why.  When others are constantly laying out lifestyle choices and personalized relationships as the acceptable norm, people who are trying to learn get a very wrong impression.  Therefore, I get too many emails that are not representative in the least of submission, and the writers have no idea what they are doing wrong and why I am not enamored.
It's a viscious cycle.

_____________________________

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(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 12:58:06 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		IMO being bratty in a social environment is completely unacceptable behavior, I don't care if you swore a blood oath to your owner that you would do it- it's still inappropriate and unacceptable.

Being bratty in your own private time or in a scene is completely acceptable.

Being bratty if your owner tells you to do so or encourages it is submission to me.  I personally find it pointless and rude and energy draining, not to mention antithetical to the idea that a sub actually wants to submit and heed my authority, but if that's what your dom wants, then go for it.



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(in reply to truesub4u)
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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 1:03:06 PM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		Not only does it depend on personal definition of submissveness... now it goes with bratty.. imature... it depends on who you are.. and how you're defining it.

I stated earlier myself.. acting like a brat (child) in public.. i'll walk away and ignore... or totally embarrass you back.. depends on where and situation.. there's always a time and or place for everything... but what you think as being bratty behavior.. others may not.. it's all in the who, what, when, where, and how situation..

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 1:20:51 PM   
masochistecstacy


Posts: 41
Joined: 2/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

But, as much as people want to object to labels, words do need to have some sort of definition


Yes, words do need to have definition, but unfortunately, there is no one definition that can define all submissives, all slaves, all bottoms. There is no black or white here, only shades of grey... *goes off topic for a bit, humming the Monkees song... smaps self and gets back on topic* My definition of submissive, for example, may be far different from yours. Maybe you look at me and say, you're not a submissive, you're a bottom. I would disagree, because to me, I am submissive to my Love. He owns me, and has ultimate say in many things, but not everything and not always. Maybe your definition is completely different. Who knows. But it's different for everyone. Our lifestyle is made up of thousands of greys, black and white simply don't fit easily there.

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 4:11:49 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

i'm using "fast reply" so i am not replying to anyone in particular here.  And quite honestly i did not have the time to read the entire thread, but i wanted to toss my 2 cents in, wherever they land.

i use Merriam Webster's definition of brat:  1 a : CHILD; specifically : an ill-mannered annoying child b : an ill-mannered immature person
 
To me, that is not "cute" or "playful" or "charming" or....  That is just what it says - annoying.  No less annoying than bratty children screaming while running around in restaurants.   Maybe we have different definitions of "annoy," so looked that up also:  1 : to disturb or irritate especially by repeated acts.

Again, i find nothing charming about that.  i see bratty people occasionally, be they submissive, dominant, vanilla, alien...whatever.  i find that character trait to be annoying to me, personally.  As a slave, i represent my Master's tastes, in part by the way i behave publically, and toward others.  He would find it displeasing and disrespectful if i were a brat.  Actually, he would find it nothing at all because he wouldn't own a brat!

Regardless, considering the definition of brat, it is not something i personally would strive for or take pride in.


I knew you were sharp *smiles warmly*............could not agree more, owned.
 
Level

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 4:16:07 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: foxnotinsox

If I am playful (see? that sounds more positive than "being a brat"), and He is enjoying it and playing off of it, hmmmmm then what business is it of yours to be involved with our scene? 


This is much the point some are trying to state, or at least I am........playful and brat are not the same.
 
I like playful and teasing, withing reason. I despise brats.

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 4:22:10 PM   
fastlane


Posts: 2159
Joined: 5/26/2005
Status: offline 		Level out and stop yelling....you hurt my ears and my head.
Playful and Bratty can be the same....not always, but on occassions......Geez!
Kevin

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 4:32:51 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		WHAT?? *laughs*..........sorry if your eardrums are ringing.....ya know, the damn words don't look that big when I'm writing them.........
 
Level

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 4:39:37 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: masochistecstacy

He owns me, and has ultimate say in many things, but not everything and not always.


This strikes me as so contradictory that it makes my head spin.

An addition.........I don't mean to be rude towards you or anyone else. I've said before, you can use any term you like, that doesn't have anything to do if I like you, respect you, enjoy your company, etc. Just don't expect me to agree with you if I don't, nor call you by a term I don't feel you are. I'm speaking in general here, btw.

< Message edited by Level -- 4/5/2006 4:45:51 PM >

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 6:17:37 PM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		In response to the OP on the original subject, no, it doesn't make sense. You can't be submissive and be acting up as a brat, or if you are, you're doing one or the other rather badly. Somewhat like a law abiding criminal...an oxymoron in terminology.
 
I've read every post up to this point, as I anticipated what was going to happen. Once again, there are two groups on opposite sides of the field, one saying the terminology we use are just words, perhaps labels, and they mean nothing (or whatever they want at that particular time) and then there is the other side, saying that there are defined meanings that are simply being ignored, or at best misunderstood. With this type of confusion, it is no wonder that it is difficult for someone to define their own role. If they do define it as best as they can, utilizing what appears to be definitive terms, they get slammed because either that's not what someone else thought they meant, or because they weren't accurate in their statement. Who is causing this dilemma (looks around and points)? I understand as well as anyone about "your kink is not my kink", but that is not an excuse to keep the waters muddy by not letting words have definition and meaning. I have said before and will say again, that the BDSM community as a whole, R/L and on-line are the only ones who can assign meanings to the phrases and words we use to describe WIITWD and the roles that it entails. It is not a job for one person, it is not a job for a committee, it is simply an evolutionary thing that will take care of itself if the opposition would just let it. The perpetual debaters, the ones who simply will not accept that it's a good thing to have defined terms are causing more harm than good. They, in their attempt to not relinquish themselves to anything that resembles organization are creating the chaos. Sure, we (as a social group) certainly are different, yes, we are not the established and accepted social order, but that does not mean we can't be organized in our own right. I do so understand what Dusty said about how this disarray causes problems in her search, the problem is us, we will not accept & agree on terms, so how the hell can we expect newbies, or even those who have been around for a while for that matter, to properly identify themselves. If we would exert half the energy toward agreeing on meanings as we seem to spend insisting that they are different for everyone, the problem would eventually go away. Then maybe, just maybe, the bottoms, slaves, subs, tops, Masters, Mistress's and even the just plain ole kinky folks could finally figure out what the hell they are.
 
So is a dog a duck? NO, and neither is the meaning the same for being a brat or being playful.


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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 6:39:04 PM   
Mikesbeth


Posts: 15
Joined: 3/30/2006
Status: offline 		Who defines?  Webster? American Heritage?   Their defintions of Dominant and Submissive and Master and Slave might not be as exact of a fit as you think.   I can quite easily poke holes in the "accepted" definitions that do not fit all the people posting in this thread.  I didn't have to read a book filled with terms and code to know who I am and what I want.  I can cut and paste from the online dictonaries with the best of them, but I might leave parts out that don't suit my argument, so maybe better to leave it up to the people who actually care about the specific definition of the specific words.    

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 7:30:55 PM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline 		Hmmm...this is an interesting thread.  i have read the whole thing, from 'top to bottom' (ha ha) and feel compelled to respond.  Beware..i have a tendency to be 'wordy'...so please bear with me. 
 
i was raised with 4 brothers (and no sisters).  Although i was absolutely the 'apple of my father's eye',,,,that was not so much the case with my 4 brothers.  In the terms of a child...they were downright 'mean' to me.  i had to fight for everything i wanted.  i cried a lot.  i was quite the tomboy.  And as a result...i ended up being quite aggressive...and confrontational.
 
This did carry on to adulthood where i ended up being a single parent to 3 kids....all of whom i disciplined as i found necessary.  In a sense, i was a dominant there...i had to be because if i were a little frail mouse with no mind, i would never have been able to raise these kids by myself....particularly not through those treacherous teen years.
 
my oldest is now 31 and a chiropractor in Buffalo, NY.  my next is a Marine Sgt, currently stationed in Africa.  And now my third.....a senior who will be 18 in July...has plans for college.  No...i did not accomplish this by being a 'helpless female'.
 
But on to the topic at hand.  Since i was always rather aggressive and outgoing, i ALWAYS ruled the roost in my vanilla relationships.  And guess what?  i was never happy with that.  All i really wanted was a partner who could tell me 'stop your shit or else...'...but i could never find that...until i got into D/s that is.
 
So my point?  Yes, i am a daddysgirl.  Do i brat?  Well, yes and no.  First of all, i am not a masochist...so i truly hate spankings and know that i would never fare well with a true sadist.  Rather, i see the spankings as a means of behavior control...a motivator to do better...a deterrent to not repeat a behavior...or do worse.
 
i do not brat to get my ass whipped.  Nor do i brat to get attention.  If put in a nutshell, i guess i brat (if that is what you want to call it) as a defiance to get my own way.
A simple example would be one time when i wanted to wear a particular outfit when going out and my then dom told me to change.  Yes, i whined....then i stamped my foot...and when he didn't 'concede'....i then stomped off, muttering...pouting, i guess.  Well, that did not go over very well with him.  Before i knew it, i was over his lap.  He was rather severe too so he was not playing.  So do you think i did that little bratting thing again with him?  Well, not right away....and not in that way.  i truly hated those spankings.
 
Perhaps if i were a masochist, i would keep up that behavior just to get beat.  Maybe that would be different...kind of like spanking a child then he/she gets up and sticks their tongue out at you.  But that is not me.  But yes, i may 'brat', but mainly for behavior control.  i do not do it for fun as some on here have explained.  Plain and simple, i do it because i want my way and if a dom isn't 'strong' enough to deal with that, then he probably isn't the dom for me.
 
This thread talks about bratting in public.  Personally, i would never do that (know better...too afraid of the consequences)....but we all must endure certain things in public that we do not like.  Too bad! We deal with unruly children.....rude customers/cashiers...people who drive like idiots....and what about gays that people just hate to see kiss or walk hand in hand?  Too bad!  Or bi-racial couples that some hate to see?  Too bad again!  This is real life and what we see is what we get.  As a matter of fact....a dumb driver cutting me off on the highway and almost causing an accident is much more likely to effect my life than someone who is bratting!
 
i consider myself an intelligent person.  i consider myself worthy of the best.  i hold my head up high when i walk.  Do i consider myself a submissive?  Absolutely!!!  Because i am ready to submit to...to defer to...one who shows me that he can exert the control i need.  Let me stomp my foot and walk away...i will do it again.  Let me pout for hours on end...i will do it again.  Put a hand on my backside and let me know you mean it....you will have started the first steps in behavior modification.  Don't have time (nor desire) for that?  Then i am not your type of sub...period. 
 
i realize i am not a slave...and was not 'built' to be.  Not really into the servitude thing.  More, i am looking for a partner who can control my bad habits (or behavior) so we can both make a relationship work over the long term.  i see vanilla couples all the time where the female spends excessively, bitches excessively, gives the guy the 'silent treatment' or the 'you sleep on the couch treatment'.  i don't want a partner like that.  i want one who says 'this is the way it is....and you better quickly learn it...or else'.  Seems so simple to me.
 
So i guess bratting could have many connotations....depending on who you are talking about.  And as for myself, i will never live for what others think of me because in all honesty, i could really give a shit.  i have enough in RL to concern myself about....what some online figure that i will never meet thinks of me is quite minor in my life....so i do not get wrapped up in what someone thinks is right or wrong...okay or not okay. That is their problem....not mine.
 
Just my quarters worth anyway.  :)  

(in reply to Mikesbeth)
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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 7:47:19 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		Hell, I am just sitting here trying to find out why everyone is arguing over something so trivial as this crock of shit. And what really get's me is that everyone is so worried about what others think. Who gives a flying fuck what label another person decides to put on themselves.

/shakes head at the wonder of it all

Me...I am bitch...and a foul mouthed one at that...but I really don't care if someone else thinks that's approiate or not. Simply because I know who I am, and I am happy with that.


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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 8:00:04 PM   
acctonthelook


Posts: 245
Joined: 3/28/2006
Status: offline 		daddysgirl u warned us about being winded and to bare with you.  I'm glad I did, b/c girl I could be your identical twin in theory anyway. 
 
I too grew up with all male siblings.  I did not have children, but I so get your need for dominance in your man!  I too find vanilla men unsatisfying.  They have been brainwashed into thinking that they are just going to have to except the "pussy whipped" dishes vanilla woman dish out. 
 
I applaud your styling of parenting! Being a single mom you did the right thing!  Kids need disipline!  Just as we do.  Structure is good for the soul.
 
Thanks for posting, you were very well written and so many great points made.  I see you've only posted once.  You should post more often!  You have great things to say!
 

 

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 8:24:35 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I guess a lot of this is in how you define "brat".  I would never purposely behave in a bratty manner.  I think it's disrespectful.  Unless you like to indulge in some sort of punishment kink.

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 9:48:05 PM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

Hell, I am just sitting here trying to find out why everyone is arguing over something so trivial as this crock of shit. And what really get's me is that everyone is so worried about what others think. Who gives a flying fuck what label another person decides to put on themselves.

/shakes head at the wonder of it all

Me...I am bitch...and a foul mouthed one at that...but I really don't care if someone else thinks that's approiate or not. Simply because I know who I am, and I am happy with that.



Grabs a JD and coke... sits opposite of Irish... like watching a damn tennis game.. batting back and forth...


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(in reply to IrishMist)
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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 10:21:13 PM   
fullofgrace


Posts: 395
Joined: 3/24/2006
From: fl, usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: fullofgrace

i pride myself on having opinions and a personality and stuff to talk about, because, well, a whole 24/7 D/s relationship just cannot be completely floated on beatings and kinky sex, and besides, if either of our lives revolved around just the traditional sm and sexual elements of the relationship, we'd get real bored, real quick. i submit to Him always, and i retain my own personality while i'm at it. i used to have bratty tendencies, just because i like to see how far i can go at times, but then i learned that it's much easier and classier to just ask nicely for the whipping. i don't know. i imagine if i was dominant i'd get bored quickly with a "bratty sub."



Very nicely said, and you do your name honor.


thank you :) i appreciate the comment very much.


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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 10:25:41 PM   
subtlesubie


Posts: 138
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline 		Just when I thought this forum couldn't get any more boring - another fucking long, pointless discussion.  At least you have consolidated all the inconcludable, inane topics into a single omnibus thread.   Now if someone would just please bring up the rightousness of adult babies, we would really be getting somewhere. 

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/5/2006 11:51:52 PM   
masochistecstacy


Posts: 41
Joined: 2/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

This strikes me as so contradictory that it makes my head spin.


Hee... Oops? I don't intend to be contradictory. Lol. I guess maybe our relationship- although it's still in the process of being defined, we've only been together for a year... *private w00t cause our one year anniversary is this weekend!!! YAYS!!* But I guess it's kind of mostly a D/s relationship with a hint of M/s and nilla thrown in the mix. *grins* We're a lil bit o' everything. That make any sense?

quote:

An addition.........I don't mean to be rude towards you or anyone else. I've said before, you can use any term you like, that doesn't have anything to do if I like you, respect you, enjoy your company, etc. Just don't expect me to agree with you if I don't, nor call you by a term I don't feel you are. I'm speaking in general here, btw.


Nah, you're not being rude. I always accept constructive criticism and input. Not one much for flames though. Hope I didn't confuse ya too much!

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(in reply to subtlesubie)
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