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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 12:14:30 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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I have not read all the posts. If I am repeating what some one else has said it just proves that great minds think alike.

I posted this in another site debating a similar question.....

We see a sub/slave actig in a "Bratty" manner. We judge the sub/slave and perhaps not being "Real" and call him or her a "Brat". In doing so we also tend to think far less of the Master or Mistress for appearing to allow it to happen, and thus we think of the Master or Mistress as not being "Real" and thus discount them when we look to others for opiniuons or people to play with.

Am I hitting the mark with a few folks here? Huh  huh  huh .. Come on 'fess up.. We're all human (or an approximation of human), I doubt that in your entire lives you haven't done something like that at least once.... Eh eh eh?

  • Fact is unless we know the couple (Sub/slave and Master/Mistress), how are we to know if the "Brattiness" isn't part of a game which is acceptable in their relationship?
  • Can we say with 100% accuracy that when the shit hits the fan the sub/slave will not act as we may expect him/her to do?
  • Who are we to make such judgements?
  • Are we part of some mystical secret society which makes the rules and has devised the ruler by which all are adjudged?

This is why I prefer to make assessments which, can be altered as we learn more about those involved and the situation... Judging some one leaves a mark which can stay with them indefinately, especially if your judgement has been taken to heart because you're popular with the masses......  before you think this is the ravings of a deranged ancient mind.. know that I have several clients and  who I am working with to try to effecty some form of healing of dammage done by the mob mentality in such cases.. Not just within this lifestyle either...... Several years ago I officiated at the funeral of one who suicided because he was so ostricised by a community who have judged him without even getting to know him, so yes I do have an axe to grind.. I never want to see this happen again..


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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(in reply to masochistecstacy)
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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 12:41:14 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		Bravo! for your voice of tolerance and wisdom!
 
And I might add to that: Why do we dismiss them and not attempt to educate them more often then not?
 
Some one educated us, some one gave us the benefit of the doubt when we were brand new and/or made mistakes. God that feeling was so precious, so endearing to be welcomed, warts and all, in to a family some one taking the time to teach, and train...
 
Its frustrating, to me on so many levels not the least of which is the enormous amount of time spend defining this, or that, to include some and exclude others.
 
As I have said  in my earlier post "dont invite them for tea"  if you dont like somebody but please dont look down at them and attempt to alienate them for something that may only be a breach of protocol in your household/leather family.
 
OK I am done ranting, thanks for bringing this up Iron Bear, some aspects of this lifestyle  remind me of the Judeans Peoples Front vs. The Peoples Front of Judea scene in life of Brian, great fun to watch, somewhat exasperating to live.

< Message edited by crouchingtigress -- 4/6/2006 12:43:47 AM >

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 2:50:08 AM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: acctonthelook

daddysgirl u warned us about being winded and to bare with you.  I'm glad I did, b/c girl I could be your identical twin in theory anyway. 
 
I too grew up with all male siblings.  I did not have children, but I so get your need for dominance in your man!  I too find vanilla men unsatisfying.  They have been brainwashed into thinking that they are just going to have to except the "pussy whipped" dishes vanilla woman dish out. 
 
I applaud your styling of parenting! Being a single mom you did the right thing!  Kids need disipline!  Just as we do.  Structure is good for the soul.
 
Thanks for posting, you were very well written and so many great points made.  I see you've only posted once.  You should post more often!  You have great things to say!
 

 


Well thank you acctonthelook.  i had seen this thread scrolling on the sidelines quite a few times and after reading bits and pieces of posts, i decided to read the whole thing.  And then i felt compelled to add my own 2 cents.  But i really don't do this often because i know that when i have something to say, i usually have A LOT  to say   
 
i think growing up with all boys can be a real bear.  i mean, they had no compassion at all....treated me just like 'one of the guys' i guess.  i recall often wishing i had an older sister to turn to, but i guess that wasn't in the stars.
 
Yes, i know what you mean about pussy whips.  That pretty much describes all of my brothers now.  And the irony is that i am probably more confrontational than any of them...so go figure!  
 
So i've raised my kids the best i could and now i am ready for the other side of that coin.  Structure, yes.  Control, yes.  Discipline, yes.  All of that.
 
So again, thanks.  And you just might see me kickin' around here again (if i feel i have anything worthwhile to say anyway).  
 
Daddysgirl

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 3:26:12 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: masochistecstacy

quote:

This strikes me as so contradictory that it makes my head spin.


Hee... Oops? I don't intend to be contradictory. Lol. I guess maybe our relationship- although it's still in the process of being defined, we've only been together for a year... *private w00t cause our one year anniversary is this weekend!!! YAYS!!* But I guess it's kind of mostly a D/s relationship with a hint of M/s and nilla thrown in the mix. *grins* We're a lil bit o' everything. That make any sense?

quote:

An addition.........I don't mean to be rude towards you or anyone else. I've said before, you can use any term you like, that doesn't have anything to do if I like you, respect you, enjoy your company, etc. Just don't expect me to agree with you if I don't, nor call you by a term I don't feel you are. I'm speaking in general here, btw.


Nah, you're not being rude. I always accept constructive criticism and input. Not one much for flames though. Hope I didn't confuse ya too much!


Me and my feeble mind will endure the confusion lol....and congratulations on the anniversary.
 
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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 3:30:51 AM   
twicehappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fullofgrace

i pride myself on having opinions and a personality and stuff to talk about, because, well, a whole 24/7 D/s relationship just cannot be completely floated on beatings and kinky sex, and besides, if either of our lives revolved around just the traditional sm and sexual elements of the relationship, we'd get real bored, real quick. i submit to Him always, and i retain my own personality while i'm at it. i used to have bratty tendencies, just because i like to see how far i can go at times, but then i learned that it's much easier and classier to just ask nicely for the whipping. i don't know. i imagine if i was dominant i'd get bored quickly with a "bratty sub."


BRAVO !!! well put, i could not agree more.

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 3:44:18 AM   
ShiftedJewel


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quote:

And I might add to that: Why do we dismiss them and not attempt to educate them more often then not?
 
Some one educated us, some one gave us the benefit of the doubt when we were brand new and/or made mistakes. God that feeling was so precious, so endearing to be welcomed, warts and all, in to a family some one taking the time to teach, and train...


That is exactly my point, and a few others said it too. There isn't a damn thing wrong with those that chose to orient themselves as a "brat" or as an adult baby (did that just for you subtlesubie...lol), if you live it and enjoy it that's great. The point is that we (as a group) need to educate and in order to do so there needs to be some clear lines drawn. That isn't a bad thing... I really don't understand why there is so much opposition to it.

quote:

Yes, words do need to have definition, but unfortunately, there is no one definition that can define all submissives, all slaves, all bottoms. There is no black or white here, only shades of grey


In every walk of life there are shades of gray but that hasn't stopped the world from putting definitions to everything. Colors are a perfect example... Red... there are hundreds of different shades of it but they are all still some form of red. It's the same with submissives, slaves, dominants, top, bottoms, switches... what in the world is wrong with allowing yourself to fall into one catagory or another?

Who defines it?? How about if we start with generally accepted terms in the english language (unless of course you don't speak english) and work from there? For instance... a slave is considered owned property.. plain and simple, from there you can elaborate. A submissive is someone that submits to the authority of another, again, chose your shade of gray there. For instance... one can submit only on the weekends, whether it's due to not being able to be together through the week or personal preference. Does that make you less of a submissive? No, just like divorced parents are still parents whether they live with the unmentionable full time or not.

I personally am not into "online only", but for some it's their only means of experiencing what they need to feel fulfilled.
 
I guess what I am trying to say is that we need to share our wisdom, mistakes, views, and information with others in an attempt to educate, we really need to stop ripping each other apart everytime we disaggree.

One major pet peeve of mine is this... Do people in this particular lifestyle hold themselves at a higher standing?? Some do, yes. But in reality most of us, in practicing wiitwd, are walking on a very thin line where the law is concerned and in that respect, yes, we have to hold to tighter standards to avoid jail time and negative media reporting (we have plenty of that as it is). As a group we have to understand the difference between accepting each others kink and tolerating those that come into with the sole purpose of abuse. Should we police ourselves as well as each other? Oh hell yeah! Because if we don't "they" do and no one comes out smelling like a rose after the press is finished with them.
 
How did the gay community get as far as they did? By becoming a united front, a force to be reckoned with, and a voice to be heard. But none of that would have happened if they (as an alternative lifestyle) spent all of their time fighting about what means what and "he isn't as gay as I am because.....". Granted it wasn't all roses and sunshine but damn... this just borders on silly.

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 4:07:52 AM   
KatyLied


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quote:

i submit to Him always


I am in a relationship where I submit always.  But sometimes it takes me time to process certain things.  He knows how I think and react, and he gives me latitude for difficult things.  Is that the same as being bratty?  I don't think so, because I am not acting out on purpose.


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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 4:31:12 AM   
twicehappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikesbeth

Who defines?  Webster? American Heritage?   Their defintions of Dominant and Submissive and Master and Slave might not be as exact of a fit as you think.   I can quite easily poke holes in the "accepted" definitions that do not fit all the people posting in this thread.  I didn't have to read a book filled with terms and code to know who I am and what I want.  I can cut and paste from the online dictonaries with the best of them, but I might leave parts out that don't suit my argument, so maybe better to leave it up to the people who actually care about the specific definition of the specific words.    


Who defines any of the words we use in day to day conversation?

The definitions for Dominant, submissive, Master, slave are actually a very good fit, thank you. For those to whom they apply.

I can poke holes in your accepted definitions of things all day long also, but would that mean that the words you use would be wrong? Or would it mean i am incapable of comprehending the English language?

To borrow from my Master for a moment; if  i came to your home and told you that 100% positively that four legged furry animal that barks is a duck, would i be right?

I think what you and many others here are not grasping is that there really are in the long standing bdsm community wide spread acceptable definitions for certain terminology used in this lifestyle.

Any person coming onto the scene can call themselves what they like, and will be taken at face value. This is part of what causes so many issues. I can call myself a domme, which would result in my receiving numerous emails from subs/slaves. Ok, so i called myself the word i chose, now what? I'm going to run into issues connecting with the type of person i am really searching for because i decided i liked the word domme. Made it my title of choice irregardless of the traditionally accepted definition in our community for this word. When if i had used the common terminology for what i am, the word that is used to define what i actually am i should have called myself a slave.
  
After all, before there were dictionaries the human race as a whole accepted and used the definitions applied to words by general consensus of use. If in your village a few villagers insisted that while the entire village agreed that the thing that barked was called a dog, the few who insisted it was a duck would be laughed out of the village. Or be sold a duck to guard their livestock when they were actually attempting to purchase a dog. 

Definitions don’t count? Next time you have a migraine headache go to the doctor and tell him your appendix hurts. After you recover from your appendectomy you may rethink poking holes in commonly accepted definitions for the names we (the speaking population as a whole) place on every facet of our existance.




_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to Mikesbeth)
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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 4:32:30 AM   
foxnotinsox


Posts: 84
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: eastern Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress
   And I might add to that: Why do we dismiss them and not attempt to educate them more often then not?
Some one educated us, some one gave us the benefit of the doubt when we were brand new and/or made mistakes. God that feeling was so precious, so endearing to be welcomed, warts and all, in to a family some one taking the time to teach, and train...
 
Its frustrating, to me on so many levels ...


Very frustrating indeed ... I dislike being yelled at, for one thing <chuckles softly>

And the arguing spinning around, and what is it exactly being argued about? Definitions? I personally would like a example scenario outlined .. so perhaps then we could see if we are speaking the same things ...

For no I agree, a duck is not a dog ... yet they are both warm-blooded animals starting with the letter *D* .. and they like water too! Could probably come up with some similarities in mating strategies as well heheh .. but that would be bratty <grins>

And I too believe that education is the key ... I used to run a submissive's group for about 5 years .. alas it folded last year. While we were active, workshops were held for Newcomer's, social gatherings, discussions, charitable events .. if there was a guy (new and submissive!) hitting on all the ladies at the club, one or two of our members would sit down and chat with the guy .. not talk down to him ... but be empathetic and then redirect the behaviour. We accepted all .. male/female/somewhere-inbetween, sub/slave/bottom/pet/slut/etc ...

Which brings me to my frustration on a parental level .. brats have spoken of here as being childish and immature, yet if you had a child that was a brat, s/he would not be treated with distain, put down, yelled at .. or even worse completely ignored. Yes, ignore the behaviour, but do not lose the child. Accept the child as s/he is and attend to the positive behaviour, for then it will grow. Have patience, for there will be relapses .. for both you and the child.

I find it sad that there are those whose behaviour is soooooooo awful as to cause such distain in some ... and likewise for those who distain it. Both focusing on negatives, which then feed and spiral off of each other. Being a glass-half-full sort of gal, I feel that education and empathy and focus on positive are key in behaviour change. Ignore the behaviour (whatever it is) yes, but don't lose the person.

Hmmmmm ok that's about all for now .. enjoy the day!
oxox,foX
Veni vidi veni

< Message edited by foxnotinsox -- 4/6/2006 4:37:40 AM >

(in reply to crouchingtigress)
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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 6:09:54 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel
The point is that we (as a group) need to educate and in order to do so there needs to be some clear lines drawn. That isn't a bad thing... I really don't understand why there is so much opposition to it.

See I don't think we even need that.

An adult who is acting rude and bratty in a social situation is inappropriate.  This is true whether it's kinky or vanilla.  The fact that some people try and justify acting inappropriately in social situations by saying "It's my kink" are completely wrong. 

We should know by the time we're adults how to act appropriately in social situations- a lot of us don't, but that's another topic, and not justified just by saying "It's my kink to act rude and bratty."

If it's occuring within a dynamic in private or in a scene, obviously it's part of their Ds and works for them.  You/we aren't going to clarify that definition any more than you will "sub vs slave."  And if we tried and insisted- we'd be as bad as any one true wayer.

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 6:47:22 AM   
Mikesbeth


Posts: 15
Joined: 3/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

Who defines any of the words we use in day to day conversation?

The definitions for Dominant, submissive, Master, slave are actually a very good fit, thank you. For those to whom they apply.

I can poke holes in your accepted definitions of things all day long also, but would that mean that the words you use would be wrong? Or would it mean i am incapable of comprehending the English language?

To borrow from my Master for a moment; if  i came to your home and told you that 100% positively that four legged furry animal that barks is a duck, would i be right?

I think what you and many others here are not grasping is that there really are in the long standing bdsm community wide spread acceptable definitions for certain terminology used in this lifestyle.

Any person coming onto the scene can call themselves what they like, and will be taken at face value. This is part of what causes so many issues. I can call myself a domme, which would result in my receiving numerous emails from subs/slaves. Ok, so i called myself the word i chose, now what? I'm going to run into issues connecting with the type of person i am really searching for because i decided i liked the word domme. Made it my title of choice irregardless of the traditionally accepted definition in our community for this word. When if i had used the common terminology for what i am, the word that is used to define what i actually am i should have called myself a slave.
 
After all, before there were dictionaries the human race as a whole accepted and used the definitions applied to words by general consensus of use. If in your village a few villagers insisted that while the entire village agreed that the thing that barked was called a dog, the few who insisted it was a duck would be laughed out of the village. Or be sold a duck to guard their livestock when they were actually attempting to purchase a dog. 

Definitions don’t count? Next time you have a migraine headache go to the doctor and tell him your appendix hurts. After you recover from your appendectomy you may rethink poking holes in commonly accepted definitions for the names we (the speaking population as a whole) place on every facet of our existance.



The problem I have with this is that definitions are evolving as quickly as the can be re-written.  No doctor would listen to me if I told him my appendix hurt without forst seeing if my description fit the illmess.  No dog would be called a duck unless the dog felt he was a duck.  I don't care about the village's perception of my duck and if they "laughed me out" it wasn't the village for me to be in.  No transgendered woman should be called a him if she feels she better identifies as a she, no matter they be xx or xy.  This entire thread is so highly intollerant at times it makes me wonder how bitter some people here are at the balance of society that wants to laugh them out of their villages.

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 7:30:58 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
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quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel
The point is that we (as a group) need to educate and in order to do so there needs to be some clear lines drawn. That isn't a bad thing... I really don't understand why there is so much opposition to it.


See I don't think we even need that.

An adult who is acting rude and bratty in a social situation is inappropriate.  This is true whether it's kinky or vanilla.  The fact that some people try and justify acting inappropriately in social situations by saying "It's my kink" are completely wrong. 


A small part of me believes that you are slowly catching on to what I am talking about here.. but I'm an optimist. See, this is the issue... if you take a "short person" and put them in a situation where there are virtually no rules, or no standards... what are you going to end up with? One serious brat, that's what. Someone that believes whatever they do is ok. Why? Because no one has ever told them it wasn't.

Yet we come to these message boards seeking clarification, knowledge and an outlet to vent our personal frustrations and what do we get? Torn apart or told "that's ok, it's your kink and everyone should stay out of your personal life." Both are complete bullshit. If I don't want someone's opinion I won't ask for it.
 
I agree that if you want to play the brat in your own home that's just fine, no one cares. But one of the biggest issues is that NO ONE will stand up and say if that's the rpg you wanna play, great, but it is NOT proper submissive behavior..ok, well, I just said it. But anyway...a society cannot function with out rules and boundries, what it will and will not accept. Tolerance is one thing, but burying our heads in the sand is not acceptable. How is anyone supposed to learn anything when the ones that have the chance to share sound wisdom do nothing but argue about what definitions should be used and how it isn't even possible to use them. Again, lets bring that "short person" back into the picture here. Lets say that mom and dad disagree on what that new persons label in life should be, and they disagree vehemently... never able to agree on any level concerning it.... around here the general concensus would be wait until that short person is old enough and let them name themselves... huh?
 
quote:

You/we aren't going to clarify that definition any more than you will "sub vs slave."  And if we tried and insisted- we'd be as bad as any one true wayer.
 
And do you know why???????? Because no one will agree to anything in this politically correct day and age for fear of offending someone that believes that words have absolutely no meaning and they can put whatever meaning they wish to that word. Again, total and complete bullshit. Someone, some place, will be offended, nothing anyone can do about that short of closing our eyes and minds and just adopting the attitude "Who cares". Fine, if that's how anyone wants to live their lives, go for it... but do NOT tell the rest of the world that they are wrong for not doing the same thing. Just because so many people don't have the intestinal fortitude to stand up and take a beating for believing that certain words DO have a specific meaning doesn't nullify the fact that they do.

Putting it as simply as I possibly can... if someone chooses to behave like a brat, fine, do it in your own home... it wouldn't fly at my house, I don't care who you are. If you want to live under the Bigtop labeled "submissive", fine, learn the appropiate behavior and understanding behind the terminology. Someone wants just the kink, go for it.... you're a top or bottom depending on where you want to end up. The biggie here is, don't call yourself a submissive if you are NOT going to submit, don't call yourself a slave if you are NOT looking for complete ownership. Don't call yourself a dominant if you are not looking to dominate someone. It's all really very simple.

I'm not saying there is "One true way"... but I am saying that there are definitions to what we call ourselves. Believe me, it would cut down considerably on some of the confusion around here. If I'm in the market for a dog... I'm sure as hell not gonna go looking at cats.

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RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 7:46:28 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel
But one of the biggest issues is that NO ONE will stand up and say if that's the rpg you wanna play, great, but it is NOT proper submissive behavior..
For me it has nothing to do with being submissive/dom/switch/kink/vanilla/whatever.  It's just inappropriate.
 
quote:

a society cannot function with out rules and boundries, what it will and will not accept. Tolerance is one thing, but burying our heads in the sand is not acceptable.
But saying "I don't tolerate that behavior" is a far cry from saying "You aren't a submissive because the definition of submissive is X."
 
I agree- we should have limits on what BEHAVIOR we tolerate and what we don't.  But that doesn't mean I or you are in any position to suggest that someone isn't who they say they are because definitions differ.
 
quote:

Because no one will agree to anything in this politically correct day and age for fear of offending someone that believes that words have absolutely no meaning and they can put whatever meaning they wish to that word
That's certainly not the reason for me, and lots of other people.  For me it's just that I know we all have to decide what words and definitions work best for us.
 
Labels however are completely different from behaviors.  You can call yourself a toad eating slug for all I care and tell me that a toad eating slug crawls on the ground to find toads, as long as you act as an appropriate mature person in a social environment.
 
I define myself how I want- my defintions vary a LOT from what a lot of other people think.  Yet somehow we manage to have a lot of social happy time together.
 
quote:

Just because so many people don't have the intestinal fortitude to stand up and take a beating for believing that certain words DO have a specific meaning doesn't nullify the fact that they do.
But they don't- not except to you.  And it's not about lacking in balls or guts or being scared, at least not for me.  It's that I can say "I completely disagree with your definition of that label, but still respect how you view it, as long as you act appropriately in a social setting." and not have any problems.

quote:

 If you want to live under the Bigtop labeled "submissive", fine, learn the appropiate behavior and understanding behind the terminology.

That's the problem.  What is "appropriate behavior FOR A DOM?"  Some people say "real doms don't give oral sex, that's not appropriate for a dom."  I think that's BS.
 
I can define, in general, appropriate behavior for an ADULT in a SOCIAL setting.  But there is no rubric of appropriate behavior based on someones internal orientation within their own intimate relationship.  And trust me, I'm not saying that because I'm shivering in my boots and paralyzed by political correctness.


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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 7:49:00 AM   
Mikesbeth


Posts: 15
Joined: 3/30/2006
Status: offline 		Wikipedia has a wonderful description of BDSM terms and roles that, if it can be agreed upon, will quell the whole D/s, M/s T/b debate.  Unfortunately, brat, bratty and brattiness are all going to still points of contention. 

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 8:18:44 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

But saying "I don't tolerate that behavior" is a far cry from saying "You aren't a submissive because the definition of submissive is X."


Yes, you can say to someone that they are not a submissive because they don't "submit to the authority of their partner". That is so simple... And just one person saying "I don't tolerate that behavior" is like spitting in the wind. As a society there should be certain behaviors that are not tolerated.
 
quote:

I agree- we should have limits on what BEHAVIOR we tolerate and what we don't.  But that doesn't mean I or you are in any position to suggest that someone isn't who they say they are because definitions differ.


Yes, we are in just that position. If enough people state that someone that is only in it for the kink is a bottom (not a bad thing, ok?) then that will set the standard. Wasn't it LAM that once said that a dictionary simply reports the common usage of a word? Then we, as a society, can and should clarify that common usage.

quote:


quote:

If you want to live under the Bigtop labeled "submissive", fine, learn the appropiate behavior and understanding behind the terminology.


That's the problem.  What is "appropriate behavior FOR A DOM?"  Some people say "real doms don't give oral sex, that's not appropriate for a dom."  I think that's BS. 


The appropriate behavior for a dominant is to dominate... pretty simple huh? If a dominant wants or desires to give oral sex, aren't they still dominating? They are doing what they want, right? Would it be different if the submissive truly didn't desire oral sex but submitted to it in order to please their dominant? It becomes inappropiate behavior for the dominant when they are on their knees begging for it... see the difference here?

Lets make a date LA, what do you think? I'll be in Baltimore next weekend. (not that kind of date you pervs... lmao)

quote:

Wikipedia has a wonderful description of BDSM terms and roles that, if it can be agreed upon, will quell the whole D/s, M/s T/b debate.  Unfortunately, brat, bratty and brattiness are all going to still points of contention.


Thank you Mikesbeth, you wouldn't happen to have the link to it would you? No, I'm not to lazy to look it up myself... but me doing a search for something on the internet is a joke. I've found some interesting things... just never find what I'm looking for.

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 8:34:25 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel
Then we, as a society, can and should clarify that common usage.

Agreed, but that breaks down as soon as you try and apply it to any particular individual or context.

quote:


The appropriate behavior for a dominant is to dominate... pretty simple huh? If a dominant wants or desires to give oral sex, aren't they still dominating?

If a dominant wants or desires their sub to be bratty, are they still dominating?
 
quote:

Lets make a date LA, what do you think? I'll be in Baltimore next weekend. (not that kind of date you pervs... lmao)
NOW you tell me?  My local partner and I are going to Florida Thur-Sun to visit friends and enjoy the holiday weekend.  We'll be back in BWI on Sun afternoon though so dinner is possible.

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(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 9:03:04 AM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

Who defines any of the words we use in day to day conversation?

The definitions for Dominant, submissive, Master, slave are actually a very good fit, thank you. For those to whom they apply.

I can poke holes in your accepted definitions of things all day long also, but would that mean that the words you use would be wrong? Or would it mean i am incapable of comprehending the English language?

To borrow from my Master for a moment; if  i came to your home and told you that 100% positively that four legged furry animal that barks is a duck, would i be right?

I think what you and many others here are not grasping is that there really are in the long standing bdsm community wide spread acceptable definitions for certain terminology used in this lifestyle.

Any person coming onto the scene can call themselves what they like, and will be taken at face value. This is part of what causes so many issues. I can call myself a domme, which would result in my receiving numerous emails from subs/slaves. Ok, so i called myself the word i chose, now what? I'm going to run into issues connecting with the type of person i am really searching for because i decided i liked the word domme. Made it my title of choice irregardless of the traditionally accepted definition in our community for this word. When if i had used the common terminology for what i am, the word that is used to define what i actually am i should have called myself a slave.

After all, before there were dictionaries the human race as a whole accepted and used the definitions applied to words by general consensus of use. If in your village a few villagers insisted that while the entire village agreed that the thing that barked was called a dog, the few who insisted it was a duck would be laughed out of the village. Or be sold a duck to guard their livestock when they were actually attempting to purchase a dog. 

Definitions don’t count? Next time you have a migraine headache go to the doctor and tell him your appendix hurts. After you recover from your appendectomy you may rethink poking holes in commonly accepted definitions for the names we (the speaking population as a whole) place on every facet of our existance.




quote:

ORINGINAL  Mikesbeth

The problem I have with this is that definitions are evolving as quickly as the can be re-written.



I agree words are evolving, some of them, with a quick bit of research on my part  i discovered that a dog has been named a dog in the English language since the Norman invasion in 1066 A.D.

The definitions for most words were researched as to definitions in common use between1413 and 1422 by order of King Henry V in order to develop Chancery Standard, which became official in the 1430’s, with the exception of the “great vowel shift” in the time of Shakespeare, during the 15th century, is basically the same form that we now refer to as Modern English.

The definitions for submissive; one who submits to another , slave; one who is owned by another, Master; one having authority over another, Dominant; commanding, controlling or prevailing over others, has remained virtually unchanged since then.

Yet you and so many others who are new wish to jump in and change the manner in which we define ourselves.

quote:


ORINGINAL  Mikesbeth

No dog would be called a duck unless the dog felt he was a duck. 


And again even if the dog named himself duck, everyone would still know, define him as; refer to him as a dog, albeit a very confused one. 

quote:


ORINGINAL  Mikesbeth

I don't care about the village's perception of my duck and if they "laughed me out" it wasn't the village for me to be in.


Yet when this happens on the forum boards people complain. If the villagers started feeding your confused dog grain as they would for any duck, he would starve to death.

quote:


ORINGINAL  Mikesbeth

No transgendered woman should be called a him if she feels she better identifies as a she, no matter they be xx or xy.
 

Why are you referring to them as transgender if in your opinion they are really women? Doesn’t that mean you are defining them as a transgender woman instead of a natural one?

quote:


ORINGINAL  Mikesbeth

No doctor would listen to me if I told him my appendix hurt without forst seeing if my description fit the illmess. 


Why not? Wouldn’t it have saved time for both of you if you had used correct terminology? What if he simply took you at your word and performed emergency surgery?


quote:


ORINGINAL  Mikesbeth

This entire thread is so highly intollerant at times it makes me wonder how bitter some people here are at the balance of society that wants to laugh them out of their villages.


This thread is not about intolerance. Yes we are a society and as such we need grounding, a basic agreement as to terminology in order to function as one.

Please read through my Master’s (ScooterTrash) and Mistress’s (ShiftedJewel) posts here on this thread on this subject.

Now normally I never directly criticize anybody’s use of the English language but I feel that it is possible some of your angst stems from lack of instruction in Basic English, therefore;

forst is correctly spelled first
illmess is correctly spelled illness
intollerant is correctly spelled intolerant

There are also a few errors in your use of punctuation but for the moment i simply suggest before you begin instructing the general population in the correct usage and definitions of words you learn them yourself. 




< Message edited by twicehappy -- 4/6/2006 9:05:16 AM >

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(in reply to Mikesbeth)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 9:04:57 AM   
MyCaptainsPet


Posts: 219
Joined: 1/22/2006
Status: offline 		i am a brat in many ways... BUT i've never been disrepectful, rude, obnoxious or any of that stuff (unless it's justified, but that's a whole other ball of wax!)

... So to say that i'm not a sub because i can tease and poke fun at my Captain just isn't right.

Being playful with Him is part of OUR loving relationship.  He LIKES that i am comfortable enough with our roles to let go and play with him.. tease him... joke with him... He LIKES that i feel free to flirt and sexually tease him at times, tempting him... etc....

Who is anyone to judge what is right for anyone else solely on what THEY want in their own lives?

It's kind of like telling people that the only Martini around is a plain one... What's wrong with the apple, watermelon or grape ones??? They are Martinis too right??  So, you go drink your plain one... i'll sip my apple one TYVM...



< Message edited by MyCaptainsPet -- 4/6/2006 9:07:38 AM >

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 9:05:23 AM   
Halcyone


Posts: 93
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline 		Wikipedia's list of BDSM terms is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_BDSM_terms

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Not a slave...a bratty subbie - 4/6/2006 9:25:56 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel
Then we, as a society, can and should clarify that common usage.


Agreed, but that breaks down as soon as you try and apply it to any particular individual or context.


Ok, no matter what, there is always someone that goes against the grain, that doesn't mean it's going to break down, the laws of the land don't break down simply because someone doesn't want to follow them. The point is that there needs to be a united front. As a group, society, alternative lifestyle, whatever we wish to call it, we need to define who and what we are, if we can't do that with some sense of logic then how can we ever expect the rest of the world to take us seriously? If a new person comes on to the boards and asks what a slave is... it's simple, a slave is owned property, albeit in most case they are very loved and very cherished property, from there they define their place in their relationship. There doesn't have to be "you are what ever you feel like you are..." bull shit, if they knew what they were they wouldn't be asking... what most are telling them to do is put a bunch of words in a hat and draw one... there you go, all fixed now.

I know that I sound like a stuck record (for those of you that are young, it's a vinyl disk that played on record players and once in a while it would get stuck in a groove and keep repeating the same line of a song over and over... lol) but take away from the meaning of something is to take away from that particular thing. For someone just coming into the lifestyle, having never really experienced it real time, and calling themselves a slave yet have never even bottomed before takes away from the ones that have lived it, have put their whole heart and soul into it. It diminishes the true value of the title or label. It's no different then the world of working, it's a point of contention when the company's owner brings in one of their kids to take over the job of VP when that kid has never even seen the inside of the building. No, we can't change it, we can't keep it from ever happening again, but we don't have to tolerate either. We, as a group, can shoot it down.

quote:

If a dominant wants or desires their sub to be bratty, are they still dominating?


Yes, he/she is still dominating... and if that's what that particular dominant wants out of life then let them be the ones to deal with it, we, as a group, again, do not have to tolerate it. As you said, what they do at home is their business, in public there are certain standards that should be maintained and certain behaviors that are very inappropiate.

quote:

NOW you tell me?  My local partner and I are going to Florida Thur-Sun to visit friends and enjoy the holiday weekend.  We'll be back in BWI on Sun afternoon though so dinner is possible.


We'll be there until Monday. And I'll have my laptop with me so I can check my mail... let me know.


_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 140
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