RE: The Perils of Being Yourself

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Mercnbeth -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/3/2010 4:01:39 PM)
quote: the sad/funny thing is when i was a new slave and new to this whole D/s way of living and thinking, i assumed that i would finally found a place where i belonged, where i would find camaraderie and kinship with others of likemind. instead, i have had far more luck finding plain old "vanilla" folk (with a more traditional philosophy on Male/female relationships) who can understand and respect the way we live than among lifestylers. amen, sister...[:)]

VideoAdminZeta -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/3/2010 4:06:04 PM)
The tone of this back-and-forth would be more appropriate in the Politics and Religion forum. Please keep the tone a bit more elevated in General BDSM.

AAkasha -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/3/2010 4:11:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 Correct LP. This is not a case of public behavior. The only incident that actually occurred was in my living room. The rest was all theory on the part of the other person and the debate was carried out via private communications, not public ones. It was, however, "in the face" of this other person. Honestly, there'd have been no way to actually have as intimate contact as we expected without it being "in his face". I believe it was you who said something to the effect of, "If I tell clip to get his head turned around, I expect him to obey and get it done." That is what we are discussing here -- my assertion that I can and do exert authority over Carol's thoughts, emotions, value system and fundamental world view. I've been flamed on these boards for that statement and I got a similar reaction from my ex-friend(s). This other person felt that such control was either delusional on my part... a fairly amusing case of mathematical proof that bumblebees cannot fly... or that it was so invasive that it was simply horrific. this is the reaction my Master and i have run into again and again when attempting to meet and develop connections with people in the "lifestyle." the idea that he is really in control, that he really expects my obedience at all times, that my life really does revolve around being his property and servant...that seems to horrify most. the sad/funny thing is when i was a new slave and new to this whole D/s way of living and thinking, i assumed that i would finally found a place where i belonged, where i would find camaraderie and kinship with others of likemind. instead, i have had far more luck finding plain old "vanilla" folk (with a more traditional philosophy on Male/female relationships) who can understand and respect the way we live than among lifestylers. i believe the problem is that BDSM and D/s are too often viewed as connected concepts when in reality they are not necessarily, or even usually. the other issue is the fact that those who are introduced to all this as a means to explore their sexuality will never really understand those who come into this seeking a fundamental way to live and love, and vice versa. How much of what you (in general "you", couples) feel you must visually demonstrate to all others in your presence (not just vanilla but yes, self proclaimed kinksters) without feeling censored? What I feel the fine line here is when couples demonstrate a lack of tact, social etiquette in front of anyone else and just brush it off as the other person being "intolerant." If you, as a couple, are confident in your role, is it so hard to judge the circumstances you find yourself in, watch the body language of others, and make measured decisions -- and yes, sometimes withhold yourself -- in order to be a courteous guest and/or friend? Otherwise, if you absolutely MUST exercise your BDSM-ness for all to see, in reality aren't you merely an exhibitionist, expecting your associates to be willing voyeurs? I see way too much poor manners and selfish, self-serving sexual behavior pawned off as self expression and just chalking it up to other people being uptight or intolerant. Your parents probably also taught you not to fart in public or talk with your mouthful or put your elbows on the table at a fine restaurant; you can ignore those social rules also, but don't whine when people don't invite you back for dinner more often. I always take into consideration the comfort of those around me when I socialize. I thought it was only in high school that people got their jollies on knowing they are being watched and people are reacting. Otherwise, does it kill you to leave your 'bad-kinky-self' at home, or at least measure your behavior based on the comfort of those around you? If not, then don't complain if your circle of friends shrinks. Akasha Akasha

leadership527 -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/3/2010 4:25:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 a fundamental way to live and love, and vice versa. Actually, that bit there may be the funniest or most ridiculous part of the accusations I've gotten here and elsewhere. For god's sake. I am the original disney dom. There's not a dark bone in my body. I'm not attracted to "the dark side of human nature". My relationship with carol is all about a joyous celebration of our union. The extremity of our dynamic is strictly a reflection of two people truly willing to commit their entire selves to the endeavor of love. Sheez, I've got hallmark card written all over me.

Jeffff -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/3/2010 4:29:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I see way too much poor manners and selfish, self-serving sexual behavior pawned off as self expression and just chalking it up to other people being uptight or intolerant. Your parents probably also taught you not to fart in public or talk with your mouthful or put your elbows on the table at a fine restaurant; you can ignore those social rules also, but don't whine when people don't invite you back for dinner more often. I always take into consideration the comfort of those around me when I socialize. I thought it was only in high school that people got their jollies on knowing they are being watched and people are reacting. Otherwise, does it kill you to leave your 'bad-kinky-self' at home, or at least measure your behavior based on the comfort of those around you? If not, then don't complain if your circle of friends shrinks. Akasha Akasha This.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/3/2010 4:34:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I see way too much poor manners and selfish, self-serving sexual behavior pawned off as self expression and just chalking it up to other people being uptight or intolerant. Your parents probably also taught you not to fart in public or talk with your mouthful or put your elbows on the table at a fine restaurant; you can ignore those social rules also, but don't whine when people don't invite you back for dinner more often. I always take into consideration the comfort of those around me when I socialize. I thought it was only in high school that people got their jollies on knowing they are being watched and people are reacting. Otherwise, does it kill you to leave your 'bad-kinky-self' at home, or at least measure your behavior based on the comfort of those around you? If not, then don't complain if your circle of friends shrinks. Akasha Akasha This. OH yeah. QFT. I read over this thread, and I can't seem to get the point of it. Jeff and Carol, I'm sorry you took this chance and it didn't pan out, but that's the breaks. Looking back at your own close and loving relationship, and the rough patches the two of you have worked through, you must see that finding poly matches is hideously difficult? What motivation does ANY of us have to alter our lives for the sake of another, let alone another couple? Personal realities clash all the time. Why else would eharmony make so much money? I have strong feelings about keeping the nonconsensual public "safe" from the less mainstream aspects of our lifestyle. I am not interested in breaking the social contract for the sake of my own entertainment. If that makes me narrowminded, fine. I can live with that.

DomImus -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/3/2010 4:34:54 PM)
To me this whole thread is just a gross over analyzation of a relationship that simply did not work out... and the requisite placing of the blame that happens afterward. The more things change the more they stay the same.

Mercnbeth -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/3/2010 4:43:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VideoAdminZeta The tone of this back-and-forth would be more appropriate in the Politics and Religion forum. Please keep the tone a bit more elevated in General BDSM. beth is a terrible instigator isn't she!? I'll have to punish her when I get home! [sm=crop.gif]

leadership527 -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/3/2010 5:06:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha How much of what you (in general "you", couples) feel you must visually demonstrate to all others in your presence (not just vanilla but yes, self proclaimed kinksters) without feeling censored? What I feel the fine line here is when couples demonstrate a lack of tact, social etiquette in front of anyone else and just brush it off as the other person being "intolerant." Well, I won't answer for anyone else. For me, I sincerely doubt that anyone in my circle of acquaintances and contacts has a clue unless they know what the collar around Carol's neck means. And even then, all they'd know is that she has a collar... meaning inferred by them. Hell, even when we're just alone, there is seldom anything overt to be seen -- no "kneel and blow me bitch" type stuff. You could probably spend a week in our living room and not have a clue we were D/s at all if you weren't already attuned to D/s dynamics... and even then, you'd see it as light and fluffy. In general, I am sensitive to the sensibilities of those around me although I have taken Carol in public on a leash once. We had a delightful time at the restaurant... as did the maitre d' and the waiter judging by the nature and tone of the lengthy conversations we had with them. This sort of thing is probably where brainiac has an issue with me (although I strongly suspect she has an issue with me mostly just because she wants to have an issue since I don't actually think any of the things she says I do). But I believe firmly that we live in a society which, overall, values diversity. My limits are described by the laws and potentially further by my own sense of fair play. But honestly, to go down the other path is to start on a path I certainly don't want. What? That guy with all the tattoos... cover them up in public please. How about that gay couple holding hands over there? Not in public please. Those two lesbians kissing on the street corner... gotta go. Anything that might possibly offend anyone... not in public. Nope, that's nowhere I want to live. For me, that issue goes much deeper than simply wanting to express myself. As I've noted ... I'm a vanilla guy. 99.99% of the time, there is nothing to express. Just another 6' brown hair, brown eyed white guy wearing jeans and a polo shirt. I am MUCH more likely to be offended by someone else than them offending me. I'm very happy that those wierdos can be themselves even if it does intrude on my sensibilities. It would be an inaccurate representation of me to think that I offend people in general. In general, I tend to make friends easily. People, women especially, often come to me and find my presence warm, inviting, and reassuring. I'm one of those guys who routinely gets the deeply intimate stories out of women that I barely know... the "I cheated on my husband" type stuff. That ought to say something about the general presence I project. The fact that I offended people on collarme by answering questions that were asked based upon my own personal experience cannot truly be considered rude. The fact that I offended this particular friend was unavoidable. As I have said, it would be impossible for two couples to be as intimate as we were proposing without them understanding pretty deeply who and what we are. Just so your clear, the original issues came up in totally ordinary and vanilla conversations... should we do this project or that project type stuff. But fundamentally, when the dynamic is as pervasive as it is between Carol and I, there is no hiding it from anyone who is intimately involved in your life. And yes... to both you and brainiac... that means that my circle of friends may well be smaller than it would otherwise be... or at least intimate friends. But that honestly works for me. The only tragedy in THIS situation was that all of this had been talked about at length up front. As VampiresLair said, they just didn't actually believe what I was saying. I refuse to take responsibility for someone else failing to believe the words that come out of my mouth -- especially when I stressed the fact that I was being literal. Had they elected to believe me and then stay more distant, we could've easily been friends and they would've never seen any of the detail which so horrifies them. Even if you were to ask this person who is now horrified of me, you'd find he would not agree with your overall characterization.

Mercnbeth -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/3/2010 5:17:54 PM)
quote: I see way too much poor manners and selfish, self-serving sexual behavior pawned off as self expression and just chalking it up to other people being uptight or intolerant. I don't see anyone here wanted to win the right to have sex on a picnic bench at the 4th of July picnic in Central Park. First we were chatting about "friends". We evolved into the discussion of consequences. Now we're on the appropriateness of "public" behavior. Stipulating that there is a time and a place for everything, unless you want to go back to the always fun; 'Where's the right place to use a leash for your slave?" lets go back to the OP's issue. Disclosing yourself to "friends" and the consequences of that action. However, before getting to that... quote: Your parents probably also taught you not to fart in public or talk with your mouthful or put your elbows on the table at a fine restaurant; you can ignore those social rules also, but don't whine when people don't invite you back for dinner more often. My parents went further and would have chastised me for using the word 'fart'; yet I now can tolerate it and accept it being used commonly while still finding, in my opinion, better ways to make the same point. quote: I always take into consideration the comfort of those around me when I socialize. Does having a quorum of people who aren't bothered qualify or is unanimous consent required? quote: I thought it was only in high school that people got their jollies on knowing they are being watched and people are reacting. Hell no - just look how people long out of high school need post their conflicting opinions to get their jollies and generate a reaction. quote: Otherwise, does it kill you to leave your 'bad-kinky-self' at home, or at least measure your behavior based on the comfort of those around you? If not, then don't complain if your circle of friends shrinks. Ahh good - back to the OP.....Nobody has given any examples of when discussion and disclosure is or isn't appropriate. To me, the bigger issue and problem is when these 'adult' discussions take place, there is no assumption of 'acceptance'. Why? Here, we aren't talking about a woman's naked breast in public, leashes, or 'acceptable public standards' of behavior. We're talking about why is it so difficult for anyone, assuming they are adults and have some common 'lifestyle' identity if not desire to experience a lifestyle sensation, to be broader in their unqualified acceptance of the choices of others? Jeff and Carol were not talking about public play, they were talking about home. They weren't talking about non-consensual people, they were talking about friends. To call the desire for acceptance under those circumstances "weird" or to call the people involved, "creepy" should generate universal condemnation in this forum. Yet - there is, as you say, juvenile "high school" comments submitted for reaction. Well it got some. Why wouldn't there be an expectation for better than that especially from those on record as being tolerate, open, and understanding? This transcends the opinion based why should a woman have to wear a top in the same venue a man doesn't. This is a matter more aligned to person's choice of living as a homosexual, bisexual, transgendered or any of the other personal identities under the broad term 'lifestyle' and getting told they were "creepy" for letting people, in this case 'friends', in on their choice of how they are going to live their life. Are you really more in line with that position than you are in support of Jeff & Carol's desire to live opening as Master/slave in their own home? Do you really fall on the side of their now 'ex-friends' who find the thought of their M/s life too repulsive to be around?

JAS61 -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/3/2010 6:07:39 PM)
I will venture in here. I think it is hard enough to have a close friend in the vanilla world. To expect to have a large circle just because they are "kinky" is not always true. I feel for you guys though as it is difficult to see anything you wished for fail. I personally am private about my desires and lifestyle and it is not anyone's business but mine and my partners. Does that mean I am pushing it at thanksgiving dinner, no it means as a Master you have to know the time and the place for it to be public or private and not force your views on others. If you have friends you can tell and interact with that is great but it seems harder and harder to find matches that deep so you can share. I do not need or want my life exposed to others who are not in the lifestyle but will not hide either. It is a fine line to walk.

DomImus -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/3/2010 6:15:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub Be careful, Merc. I am one of the most vocal critics of those who practice the "in your face" style of kink by violating social norms and then taking the "fuck you" position when people don't agree with them. The "we're here, we're queer - get used to it" approach that many here advocate will work to a certain extent but it certainly won't foster any sense of understanding. Great for the "fuck you" folks like the ones here in this thread - who are often very selective at who their 'fuck you's' are directed at as has been pointed out here - but not so good for the folks who would ultimately like to be able to live as they wish and still have some semblance of civil interaction with those around them. Maybe one day the "fuck you" crowd will split off into their own kink demographic and that will enable those who are not so adversarial to flourish. The fact that some of them are highly regarded within the confines of these forums is something I just cannot wrap my head around.

LadyPact -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/3/2010 6:28:08 PM)
quote: Jeff & Carol's desire to live opening as Master/slave in their own home? That's the kicker. Right there. (Maybe another approach is in order here.) If I should have the good fortune to meet you (general you) and invite you into My home, there are some things that you should expect. Should it occur that during your visit I tell clip to get Me a diet pepsi, he's going to get up and do that. In addition, when he brings it to Me, he's going to kneel and give it to Me with the glass resting in the palm of his hand. If for some reason you don't like that, it really doesn't matter because that is the way it's done in My house. The same thing goes for any other protocol or ritual in My home, or any other way we interact with each other in general. Yes, you might even observe that he continues to ask My permission to leave the room, or that while you are seated on My couch, he will sit on the floor. The rules for him don't change just because we have guests. If, as My guest you are not comfortable with that kind of thing, you may wish to consider that in determining whether or not you would like to accept the next invitation to My home.

leadership527 -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/3/2010 6:42:28 PM)
Well sheez, I'm ok with all that... but man if you do any of that freaky fem-domme crap like having the toilet paper go under rather than over, I am SOO out of there! [:o] On a more serious note, the ex-friend in this story did not say that I can't do this in my own home. What he said is that he cannot "condone" it. For Carol and I, this is not some hat that we put on and take off. It is a basic expression of our fundamental personalities... much moreso for Carol in a lot of ways than me. When someone cannot condone the woman I love, they are not my friend.

daddysprop247 -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/3/2010 6:46:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha How much of what you (in general "you", couples) feel you must visually demonstrate to all others in your presence (not just vanilla but yes, self proclaimed kinksters) without feeling censored? What I feel the fine line here is when couples demonstrate a lack of tact, social etiquette in front of anyone else and just brush it off as the other person being "intolerant." If you, as a couple, are confident in your role, is it so hard to judge the circumstances you find yourself in, watch the body language of others, and make measured decisions -- and yes, sometimes withhold yourself -- in order to be a courteous guest and/or friend? Otherwise, if you absolutely MUST exercise your BDSM-ness for all to see, in reality aren't you merely an exhibitionist, expecting your associates to be willing voyeurs? I see way too much poor manners and selfish, self-serving sexual behavior pawned off as self expression and just chalking it up to other people being uptight or intolerant. Your parents probably also taught you not to fart in public or talk with your mouthful or put your elbows on the table at a fine restaurant; you can ignore those social rules also, but don't whine when people don't invite you back for dinner more often. I always take into consideration the comfort of those around me when I socialize. I thought it was only in high school that people got their jollies on knowing they are being watched and people are reacting. Otherwise, does it kill you to leave your 'bad-kinky-self' at home, or at least measure your behavior based on the comfort of those around you? If not, then don't complain if your circle of friends shrinks. Akasha Akasha are we even reading the same thread?? all of these comments regarding what it is and what is not appropriate behavior around others may make a stimulating discussion for a rainy day, but is NOT the topic presented by Jeff as i understand it. this is not about kink or bdsm activities (my Master and i, btw, do not have a bdsm relationship and do not engage in "kink). this is about fundamental differences in beliefs, relationship values, lifestyle philosophy, etc. this is about the way those who are avid practitioners of bdsm and "kink" often have little to no tolerance of those for whom dominance and submission, ownership and slavery, are actual concrete ways of living, loving and thinking. this is about the terrible misunderstandings and heartbreak that can result when some use the terminology in a literal sense and others use it because it sounds hot and gets their rocks off, and yet others go with a "spirit of the law" view and assume everyone else does the same.

brainiacsub -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/3/2010 8:25:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 [...] In general, I am sensitive to the sensibilities of those around me although I have taken Carol in public on a leash once. We had a delightful time at the restaurant... as did the maitre d' and the waiter judging by the nature and tone of the lengthy conversations we had with them. This sort of thing is probably where brainiac has an issue with me (although I strongly suspect she has an issue with me mostly just because she wants to have an issue since I don't actually think any of the things she says I do). Jeff, I don't have an issue with you. Really, I don't. You took a very adamant stance in the thread I mentioned about your "right" to walk Carol on a leash in public if you wanted to. It was your attitude toward me and the "fuck anyone who doesn't agree with me" position that I took issue with. It seemed unreasonable given the very vanilla nature of the society that we live in. I had no idea that it was something you did just once for fun. You never mentioned that. I will say that your tone and attitude in this thread is very different than that one, so I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this has been a profound learning experience, albeit a painful one. I genuinely feel bad for you because you aren't being an ass about this, when many would. quote: [...] And yes... to both you and brainiac... that means that my circle of friends may well be smaller than it would otherwise be... or at least intimate friends. But that honestly works for me. The only tragedy in THIS situation was that all of this had been talked about at length up front. As VampiresLair said, they just didn't actually believe what I was saying. I refuse to take responsibility for someone else failing to believe the words that come out of my mouth -- especially when I stressed the fact that I was being literal. Had they elected to believe me and then stay more distant, we could've easily been friends and they would've never seen any of the detail which so horrifies them. Even if you were to ask this person who is now horrified of me, you'd find he would not agree with your overall characterization. Up until this thread, I had no characterization of you other than the one you presented in that other thread. You came across as someone who was just completely detached from reality and proud of it. I always question the wisdom of that when I hear/see it. I will say I have a very different perception now. You actually sound more like me and I share your vision and desires for a TPE D/s relationship. All the kink is actually secondary to that for me. I don't think we are that far apart. There are no hard feelings here. I wish you well.

SailingBum -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/3/2010 8:32:53 PM)
Two thoughts. The OP is whining that "my friend" doesnt love me anymore. Cuz insert excuse here! When truth be told the OP is guessing groping for the reasons as it's never just one thing that causes a breakup. My other thought is as my dad used to say. Consider yourself lucky if you have one true friend in your life, Im older than i care to admit and he was right BadOne

domiguy -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/3/2010 10:16:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: ORIGINAL: VideoAdminZeta The tone of this back-and-forth would be more appropriate in the Politics and Religion forum. Please keep the tone a bit more elevated in General BDSM. beth is a terrible instigator isn't she!? I'll have to punish her when I get home! [sm=crop.gif] You should...If she is responsible for the length and monotony of these posts the bitch should be lynched!!! But we all know better. We see the way she posts..."This slave this and this slave that." Really awesome shit! Captivating stuff!!! I have seen the cognitively impaired offer up more original thoughts. It's you. Blow hard. Unable to understand he world that surrounds him....Wants to "OUT" all of the hypocrites. People don't like you because they are hypocrites. They don't like you because they have the ability to discern the good from the CREEPY.

WyldHrt -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/4/2010 12:23:06 AM)
quote: But we all know better. We see the way she posts..."This slave this and this slave that." Really awesome shit! Captivating stuff!!! I have seen the cognitively impaired offer up more original thoughts. Interesting take, considering the grade-school, threadjacking shit that you habitually spew all over the boards. [8\|] That said, I'll thank you to not make assumptions about what the rest of 'we all' know or see. Beth's posts speak for themselves, and quite eloquently. Attempting to insult her does nothing more than make you look like an asshole. Trust me, you don't need the help. quote: It's you. Blow hard. Unable to understand he world that surrounds him....Wants to "OUT" all of the hypocrites. People don't like you because they are hypocrites. They don't like you because they have the ability to discern the good from the CREEPY Want to try that again? I think you forgot a few words or the proper punctuation somewhere. Sorry, but the whole "CREEPY" thing is just laughable to pretty much anyone here who has met M&b in real. Kindly do us all a favor and invest in a buttplug, as talking out your ass in public is rude. As to the OP- Sorry to hear that it didn't work out, Jeff. Your dynamic isn't one that I would choose for myself, but I cannot imagine ending a friendship because I don't like something that obviously makes people that I care about happy. On the flip side, I lived a lie for many years, in a miserable marriage. When it finally ended, I made the decision to stop lying (even to myself) and be the person I really am. I'm not the 'in your face' type, and don't flaunt anything in public, but guests in my home will probably see hides, floggers, toys under construction, and other things that make my interests rather clear. Those who know me (my boss included) know that if they ask questions, they will get answers. There is a balance for sure, but people have to decide for themselves where the fulcrum is.

petmonkey -> RE: The Perils of Being Yourself (5/4/2010 5:25:11 AM)
Read a bit of Your blog. Welcome to the Northwest! :)

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