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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/14/2010 8:14:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

And yet you have our devious, manipulating ways down pat...;-)

You say the sweetest things.....thank you!!!

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/14/2010 8:16:57 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

You say the sweetest things.....thank you!!!

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/14/2010 9:08:00 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

Aren't we all ruled by our hormones and genes?

Influenced, yes. Ruled, no, not all of us.

I find the subject Dreamer brought to the table quite fascinating. Ever since reading Dawkins's The Selfish Gene years ago, I've tumbled the idea around in my head like a mental tavern puzzle. I've come to the conclusion we don't really know where genetic influence begins or ends. Generally, I feel most follow their natural desires and behaviors without resisting them. I believe we do have the potentiality to overcome the more powerful genetic influences, but it's easier said than done. At a certain hormonal threshold, clarity on "self sovereignty" gets even more complex.

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/14/2010 10:34:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

Aren't we all ruled by our hormones and genes?

Influenced, yes. Ruled, no, not all of us.

Generally, I feel most follow their natural desires and behaviors without resisting them.

In reply to the frequent comment on his theory that 'for you, the human mind is all about sexual impulses' Freud once answered, 'No. If the human mind were *solely* about sexual impulses, there'd never be any neuroses'. The problem is that there is a conflict between natural impulses and the other forces at work in the human mind.

And there's that line of thinkers who've held that not only do people not generally follow their natural desires and behaviours, but that it takes great effort to do so.

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/14/2010 11:32:43 AM

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

In reply to the frequent comment on his theory that 'for you, the human mind is all about sexual impulses' Freud once answered, 'No. If the human mind were *solely* about sexual impulses, there'd never be any neuroses'. The problem is that there is a conflict between natural impulses and the other forces at work in the human mind.

Indeed, though one eventually arrives upon questioning from where those "forces" ultimately derive. In speaking of the prefrontal cortex, it is essentially various tribes of neural cells—emotive and analytical—contesting for the ultimate decision or conclusion through reentrant pathway dialog. I still liken that somewhat loosely to what Freud called the neurological representations of physical needs, motives and curiosities.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
And there's that line of thinkers who've held that not only do people not generally follow their natural desires and behaviours, but that it takes great effort to do so.

A nature vs. nurture argument, in that nurture / outside influence is attempting to override nature, and often does. I see that too, though I have observed how when the pleasure reward system is inhibited, it is rerouted in other ways, or leads to fulfillment under the cover of duplicitous behavior.

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/14/2010 12:02:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

In reply to the frequent comment on his theory that 'for you, the human mind is all about sexual impulses' Freud once answered, 'No. If the human mind were *solely* about sexual impulses, there'd never be any neuroses'. The problem is that there is a conflict between natural impulses and the other forces at work in the human mind.

Indeed, though one eventually arrives upon questioning from where those "forces" ultimately derive.

Those forces might well derive, ultimately, from natural rather social forces. Perhaps everything about society could be said to have derived from the actions of 'selfish genes'. But the the whole point of society existing in the first place - so many have said - was to mediate between conflicting, selfish impulses. Eventually, the thing that was only meant to mediate - society - becomes a powerful controller in its own right. That's one reason we're motivated to reason - including reasoning with one another on this forum, for instance. We could be said to be obstructing the impulses that those selfish genes are said to be producing in the very act of discussing them here . . . .

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/14/2010 2:01:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
But the the whole point of society existing in the first place - so many have said - was to mediate between conflicting, selfish impulses. Eventually, the thing that was only meant to mediate - society - becomes a powerful controller in its own right.

Being naturally social creatures, I'm one who tends to believe human sociality and its resulting controls is a form of swarm intelligence for the altruistic good of our kind. There are those who have posited the idea that village, town and city making serves to facilitate the protection and storage of human DNA.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
We could be said to be obstructing the impulses that those selfish genes are said to be producing in the very act of discussing them here . . . .

And I'm amused at how paranoid things get at that point. I believe Dawkins expressed that only if the organism becomes intelligent enough would it have a chance of making a distinction between its own reasoned interests and that of its selfish genes. Where I view "reason" as often an expression of genetic interest in and of itself, there are signs we can override the selfish gene through it, nonetheless (if it exits). Birth control or the decision to commit suicide serve as bold examples, I suppose.

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/14/2010 5:06:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

Being naturally social creatures, I'm one who tends to believe human sociality and its resulting controls is a form of swarm intelligence for the altruistic good of our kind.

I'm not sure I'd want to posit every human society as an example of such altruism, but I don't doubt that that's a factor.

quote:

And I'm amused at how paranoid things get at that point. I believe Dawkins expressed that only if the organism becomes intelligent enough would it have a chance of making a distinction between its own reasoned interests and that of its selfish genes. Where I view "reason" as often an expression of genetic interest in and of itself, there are signs we can override the selfish gene through it, nonetheless (if it exits). Birth control or the decision to commit suicide serve as bold examples, I suppose.

As does wanking. Which reminds me, I feel a pressing need to remove myself from this forum for fifteen minutes in order to play my part in fostering societal altruism.

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/14/2010 6:09:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
I feel a pressing need to remove myself from this forum for fifteen minutes in order to play my part in fostering societal altruism.

How very selfish of you.

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/14/2010 6:48:12 PM

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You wound me, Marc.

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/14/2010 10:34:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

The difference is in the statement you quoted. I agree on the surface it can all be the same—though some of us have better bullshit detectors than others, my boss being one of the best I've ever seen—and in a short encounter, the one being charmed may very well never know the difference. However, if you spend enough time around someone who uses fake charm, there are good chances that the falseness becomes exposed and obvious.

Authentic charm however only gains mileage. I like our associates that I deal with every day and I don't use fake charm with any of them. The charm I use is not flirty, but it is authentic. My reputation for being someone incredibly pleasant to deal with precedes me.

I've seen people use fake charm—and be good at it initially— and over two years, people start seeing through the crack and start considering them two-faced and hypocrites.

Does that answer your question?

- LA

I can see what you're saying, but I'm not sure I agree with you. I've watched my mum and my grandma function for years, and I've rarely seen either of them caught out.

We have very different experiences then. Either that or I have a very good fake detector. Either way, hypocrisy is something I truly find a huge turn off.

- LA

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/14/2010 10:36:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

Aren't we all ruled by our hormones and genes?

Influenced, yes. Ruled, no, not all of us.

I find the subject Dreamer brought to the table quite fascinating. Ever since reading Dawkins's The Selfish Gene years ago, I've tumbled the idea around in my head like a mental tavern puzzle. I've come to the conclusion we don't really know where genetic influence begins or ends. Generally, I feel most follow their natural desires and behaviors without resisting them. I believe we do have the potentiality to overcome the more powerful genetic influences, but it's easier said than done. At a certain hormonal threshold, clarity on "self sovereignty" gets even more complex.

Well I guess this is where maturity and emotional intelligence comes in.

- LA

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/15/2010 1:19:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

We have very different experiences then. Either that or I have a very good fake detector. Either way, hypocrisy is something I truly find a huge turn off.

- LA

I don't really see it as hypocrisy-it's an acknowledgement that we're all fairly cantankerous women who just aren't going to like everyone we meet, often through no fault of theirs. Sometimes talking to them will be unavoidable-are we supposed to be rude and unpleasant because they irritate us? That would be an accurate representation of my personal reaction to quite a few people (so not hypocritical), but it would be in worse taste, IMO.

I think people like to believe they can tell when others are lying-they like to trust their bullshit detectors. I read a study a while ago that seemed to suggest that most people can't tell when their spouse is lying, but I don't remember where and I don't have the energy to find the reference and see how reliable the actual study was.

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/15/2010 1:28:26 AM

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i think about this all the time too ... when it comes to dating, it is unquestionably better to be a woman ... women have all the power ... men have to do all the work ask women out get rejected ... very unfair ... if u r a decent looking girl u don't have to do anything men will come up to me

this is a large reason why i am trans ... i got sick of the whole game ... i am bi and i do like girls but i can't take the whole dating game anymore

when it comes to pretty much anythin else but dating guys have an edge, jobs, sports,etc so the world is unfair

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/15/2010 4:46:51 AM

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ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

I don't really see it as hypocrisy-it's an acknowledgement that we're all fairly cantankerous women who just aren't going to like everyone we meet, often through no fault of theirs.

What a lot of bollocks! You're not cantankerous, you're *nice*. Next to you, Minnie Mouse would look like Lucrezia Borgia. So far . . . .

Girls start as fruit juice, then they turn into wine, then sherry, then finally, cognac. If all goes right. If not, they turn into vinegar and never seem to turn back again.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 5/15/2010 4:47:27 AM >

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/15/2010 4:50:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

What a lot of bollocks! You're not cantankerous, you're *nice*.

See what I mean? :P

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/15/2010 5:54:30 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

We have very different experiences then. Either that or I have a very good fake detector. Either way, hypocrisy is something I truly find a huge turn off.

- LA

I don't really see it as hypocrisy-it's an acknowledgement that we're all fairly cantankerous women who just aren't going to like everyone we meet, often through no fault of theirs. Sometimes talking to them will be unavoidable-are we supposed to be rude and unpleasant because they irritate us? That would be an accurate representation of my personal reaction to quite a few people (so not hypocritical), but it would be in worse taste, IMO.

The pendulum doesn't always have to swing completely the other way. Just because I'm not charming with someone doesn't mean I have to be rude with them. I can also be cordial or civil to them.

Case in point, there is one person I have to deal with on a regular basis who I find completely idiotic. I'm civil with him because it's important for the team we work in and for getting things done, but I wouldn't consider myself being charming with him at all. For me, being charming to someone I'm not fond of feels fake and I'm talking about over the long term.

quote:

I think people like to believe they can tell when others are lying-they like to trust their bullshit detectors. I read a study a while ago that seemed to suggest that most people can't tell when their spouse is lying, but I don't remember where and I don't have the energy to find the reference and see how reliable the actual study was.

VC, I'm not claiming to have super powers to tell when someone is lying, but I have pretty good instincts for this. That said, I've been duped more than once.

- LA

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/15/2010 6:33:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

I find the subject Dreamer brought to the table quite fascinating. Ever since reading Dawkins's The Selfish Gene years ago, I've tumbled the idea around in my head like a mental tavern puzzle. I've come to the conclusion we don't really know where genetic influence begins or ends. Generally, I feel most follow their natural desires and behaviors without resisting them. I believe we do have the potentiality to overcome the more powerful genetic influences, but it's easier said than done. At a certain hormonal threshold, clarity on "self sovereignty" gets even more complex.

Well I guess this is where maturity and emotional intelligence comes in.

It could be, though it's ironic that the roots of the term "emotional intelligence" draws in part from Darwin's "emotional expression" in organisms for survival.

Regarding the male / female mating game, success has a lot to do with putting a finer edge on one's methods; some mistake that for maturity, sometimes. True maturity is the sum of collected knowledge and wisdom, and is certainly more appealing, albeit somewhat relative.

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/15/2010 7:19:37 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

I find the subject Dreamer brought to the table quite fascinating. Ever since reading Dawkins's The Selfish Gene years ago, I've tumbled the idea around in my head like a mental tavern puzzle. I've come to the conclusion we don't really know where genetic influence begins or ends. Generally, I feel most follow their natural desires and behaviors without resisting them. I believe we do have the potentiality to overcome the more powerful genetic influences, but it's easier said than done. At a certain hormonal threshold, clarity on "self sovereignty" gets even more complex.

Well I guess this is where maturity and emotional intelligence comes in.

It could be, though it's ironic that the roots of the term "emotional intelligence" draws in part from Darwin's "emotional expression" in organisms for survival.

Marc, I'm not familiar enough with Darwin's "emotional expression" to expand further on the subject. It's unfortunate as I'm sure we could have a thought provoking conversation about this. I will put it on my things to read list. In the meantime, would you be kind enough to expand further on this?

quote:

Regarding the male / female mating game, success has a lot to do with putting a finer edge on one's methods; some mistake that for maturity, sometimes. True maturity is the sum of collected knowledge and wisdom, and is certainly more appealing, albeit somewhat relative.

But isn't being more refined a learned skill? So wouldn't it fall under the category of collected knowledge and wisdom? I agree with you that refined and mature don't always go hand in hand, but it's mighty nice when they do.

- LA

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/15/2010 7:54:32 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Marc, I'm not familiar enough with Darwin's "emotional expression" to expand further on the subject. It's unfortunate as I'm sure we could have a thought provoking conversation about this. I will put it on my things to read list. In the meantime, would you be kind enough to expand further on this?

Google is your friend, as they say. As far as reading goes, I suggest The Expression of Emotions in Man and Animals by Darwin & Wilson

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
But isn't being more refined a learned skill? So wouldn't it fall under the category of collected knowledge and wisdom?

Sharpening methods may fall under simply recognizing patterns required for success. I'm not so sure that it is synonymous with higher wisdom and intelligence, though.

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