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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/16/2010 6:32:22 PM

VideoAdminAlpha

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I'm going to back Mod21 on this again; there are quite a few people that are off topic and CONTINUE to remain off topic; one last time, please stick to the topic at hand.

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/17/2010 5:01:20 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

This should make people think twice about spending money on a breast enhancement rather than tuition fees, shouldn't it. ;-)

- LA

It's funny you should mention that subject, LA. I was just thinking that when men talk about the 'natural power women have over men' - they're often actually talking about plastic rather than femininity, as such. That is, plastic-enhanced boobs, plastic in the lips, cheeks, nose; tops, skirts, trousers and boots with shiny plastic surfaces, bits of glittering paste jewellery . . . The women who have the most plastic on them, or in them, seem so often to be the ones who are held up as having that wondrous 'natural power of femininity'.

The 'natural power of plastic'. Doesn't have as good a ring, though.

See that natural power of plastic is fleeting. Not too long ago, I went dining with a mixed group (men and women) of about 10 friends where the waitresses were definitely hired for their looks. This was an up-scale resto, very fine dining, and I'm telling you, all of us noticed how physically drop dead gorgeous the women were, not to mention they had rather short dresses and legs that went on for miles, as did their neckline. The guys kept joking that they couldn't focus on the conversation.

And then our waitress came to our table. Gaaaah. Daft and no class. When she left our table, one of my friends just looked so discouraged and said in French "Wow, c'est débandant, ça!" which literally means that is it is "hard-on revoking" (I know it sounds rude, but it's a common expression here for things that are a buzzkill, but in this case, it was almost quite literal).

We had a bit of fun every time the waitresses came by and had a little giggle at their expense, I have to admit. But when we left the restaurant, one of my guy friends put his arm around my waist, pulled me to him affectionately and said to me with a smile how much more sexy and charming intelligent women were.

- LA

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/17/2010 8:58:10 AM

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I just saw an article about a book a 43 yo woman wrote, something like 'Formerly Hot'. Her perspective is from what she calls, the other side of hot. It was a positive outlook on being 40something. Basically a message to 20somethings that, while she understands from memory why her point of view means basically nothing to the hot 20somethings, that they really have nothing to worry about.

I think that for me, getting 'unhot' was the best thing that ever could have happened to me. I know I am not horrible on the eyes.....most days, but to MOST people, I am not 'HOT'. Not in the commercial sense. I am okay with that. When I was hot, I had zero appreciation for it, was horribly insecure about my looks, felt that if only my ass was smaller, my boobs less, out there......if only if only if only.

Now I look back at photos from that time, look at the size of clothing I wore, and I realize how silly it all was.

My value, to myself, and my personal power, has very little to do with how 'hot' I am, or not. It comes from far deeper. A place that doesn't give a shit about sagging breasts, spreading ass, or any of the other natural progressions of age. It gives me great joy to know that the aging process only makes me feel more powerful rather than less.

I look at young, beautiful women that appear to place such huge value on their physical beauty and I fear for them. I see those that are beginning to show signs of losing that youthful bloom, still beautiful but not in the 20something dewy fresh way, and see how they are trying so hard and.......only beginning to look hard. It often makes me wish I could tell them something, let them know how awesome it can be on 'the other side of hot'. Life is too amazing to spend it chasing an elusive thing you will never completely catch. I hate what our culture does to women, the warped values it creates.

I am rambling because I haven't had enough sleep this last weekend..........

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/17/2010 9:45:36 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

It's funny you should mention that subject, LA. I was just thinking that when men talk about the 'natural power women have over men' - they're often actually talking about plastic rather than femininity, as such. That is, plastic-enhanced boobs, plastic in the lips, cheeks, nose; tops, skirts, trousers and boots with shiny plastic surfaces, bits of glittering paste jewellery . . .

It could be said that we all live in a culture that removes us from our natural state. We shave, we use cologne or perfume, we use hair gels, hair coloring, deodorant, teethe whiteners, tanning lotions, skin creams and electrolysis. In short, we're all body modified in some way.

I suppose the only way we can test truth of form is to abandon society's accessories and meddling altogether.

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/17/2010 10:54:54 AM

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Women have absolutely no power over men, natural or contrived, that men do not willingly lend to them. And I use the word lend advisedly I feel, for the loan is entirely conditional and revocable should the conditions not be met and continue to be met.

The belief in some supernatural female power over men is one I find identified primarily with men who are fearful and in a deep seated way ashamed of their natural sexuality as this contrasts with the cultural ideal of what it is "to be a man". It is perfectly natural for a man to wish to please and to give to his mate his entire being, just as it is equally natural for a woman to wish to do likewise. The cultural ideal of "man" is not sympathetic to this natural inclination, professing instead the alleged virtues of independence and emotional petrification whilst all the time these actually serve only to deter and destroy the chances of a healthy relationship.

What then occurs is supernatural thinking whereby the male, reliant not on his own self image but on one derived from the cultural ideal, must seek to explain his "wrong" inclinations towards that which is natural for him as arising from the female, for it certainly cannot be to his mind that he might be other than correspondent to that cultural ideal. From this position he imagines her to be possessed of godlike powers in the face of which he is helpless.

One of two things then may happen over time
1) eventually he matures enough to like himself enough that he disposes of the cultural ideal and is content to acknowledge his natural inclinations. This may seem a happy outcome, but simultaneous with this maturation he will realise that his mate is a person too, not a god. If she is a suitable match for him then all shall be well, but if in his immaturity he was affected by his delusions to mate with a woman not a suitable match then the relationship shall be over in short order.
2) he does not mature, but his mate grows older, losing with her youthful beauty her apparent supernatural powers over him. This obviously has a bad end for all concerned.

And in closing, if anyone truly believes that women have some supernatural power over men whereby they might manipulate men to their purposes, one must account for my many personal experiences where men have fallen over themselves to please and impress me, quite without my lifting a finger to that end. Although this may demonstrate that were the will there to do so I might have a great deal of fun at the expense of delusional males, and though it may equally demonstrate that the less ethical woman might run amok in a similar fashion, it does not explain how such apparent power may be the special preserve of those with two X chromosomes.

In summary, many men are daft, some women will exploit this - neither condition portrays either in the best light nor supports a healthy relationship.

E

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/17/2010 1:12:20 PM

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Not so. Study after study confirms that men are unable to think clearly in the presence of a beautiful woman. We are unable to make good judgments. Our math skills fall off dramatically. Even our brain chemistry and hormone secretions are measurably altered. We do not lend that power to women. Nature gave it to them. You can deny it all you want, but that does not alter the facts.

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/17/2010 1:39:40 PM

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Well, Lady E, that was thought-provoking!

Here are a few, first off:

quote:

The belief in some supernatural female power over men is one I find identified primarily with men who are fearful and in a deep seated way ashamed of their natural sexuality as this contrasts with the cultural ideal of what it is "to be a man".

That would make more sense to me, personally, if I'd become less inclined to see 'female power over men' the more I'd come to embrace my own sub-feelings. The opposite's been the case, though. True, the idea of woman-as-Goddess - as some kind of 'fact about the universe' (demonstrable, even, by science) I've increasingly realised to be drivel. On the other hand, I've come to revel in those Goddess feelings that (many) subs love. They don't make sense, they're not remotely logical, and I'm fully aware that they come from me rather than her - but they're hellishly good feelings to have.

This makes me think that, for some of those who do want to make an 'objective fact' out of female powers over men, the explanation could be a lot more straightforward: they have this strong feeling that seems to come from women (or a particular woman) and they'd like it to be more than just their personal feeling - to make it more 'real'.

quote:

It is perfectly natural for a man to wish to please and to give to his mate his entire being, just as it is equally natural for a woman to wish to do likewise.

That 'naturalness' of the desire for a man to wish to give his entire being to a woman would no doubt sound good to the ears of a sub-male - but would it sound good to those of a dominant male or female? If not, do femdoms and maledoms have desires that are 'unnatural'? You can't be saying this, surely?

quote:

The cultural ideal of "man" is not sympathetic to this natural inclination, professing instead the alleged virtues of independence and emotional petrification whilst all the time these actually serve only to deter and destroy the chances of a healthy relationship.

I'm not sure that it's so easy to distinguish between what's 'natural' and what's 'cultural ideal'. Some people like being independent, for instance, and I don't think there's any final way of saying whether that's down to nature or to nurture. (It's very difficult to do that in any context, of course.) Secondly, 'emotional petrification' seems something of a caricature. Others - particularly other women - often say men are far too emotionally volatile - and in all the wrong ways. Too aggressive, for instance.

quote:

In summary, many men are daft, some women will exploit this - neither condition portrays either in the best light nor supports a healthy relationship.

I'll ram this point home because I think the ramming's important: it's not just men who are daft to turn women into Goddesses, women themselves are daft if they believe it too much. As I tried to show, and La T's post (in part) did likewise, above, so much grief can come to women from that.

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/17/2010 1:46:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

Not so. Study after study confirms that men are unable to think clearly in the presence of a beautiful woman. We are unable to make good judgments. Our math skills fall off dramatically. Even our brain chemistry and hormone secretions are measurably altered. We do not lend that power to women. Nature gave it to them. You can deny it all you want, but that does not alter the facts.

I've found I can wipe out that power in an instant by imagining such a woman farting. The trouble is, most men wouldn't want to imagine that. However - note that word 'want'. It's up to us. I'd say that the power *is* lent to women, though it's lent unconsciously and by default.

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/17/2010 2:01:54 PM

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There's nothing wrong with those "sub feelings" Peon - theyre merely personal interpretations of quite natural inclinations. The important difference is in knowing what they are and what they are not.

As for the dominant partner in a d/s relationship, they too wish to please and to give themselves to their partners but obviously their personal interpretations of these natural inclinations and their expressions of them will vary according to their personal nature. By happy coincidence these interpretations and expressions just happen to amiably suit those of the submissive partner.

The whole of bdsm is merely the ritualisation of these respective inclinations and expressions.

My opinion of "men's volatile emotions" is that this arises primarily from the inner struggle going on between natural emotional expression and the cultural ideal to which they cling or the vestiges of it. Rather than feeling able to express themselves naturally, they get caught up and being frustrated exhibit those negative behaviours to which you allude.

E

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/17/2010 2:03:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Women have absolutely no power over men, natural or contrived, that men do not willingly lend to them.

If the power is natural, then one could argue its reception in the male is id-based and not lent simply by conscious choice; it is a matter of innate desire. If the power is "just" contrivance, it's contrivance with a fairly predictable outcome, I'd say.

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/17/2010 2:21:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Women have absolutely no power over men, natural or contrived, that men do not willingly lend to them.

If the power is natural, then one could argue its reception in the male is id-based and not lent simply by conscious choice; it is a matter of innate desire. If the power is "just" contrivance, it's contrivance with a fairly predictable outcome, I'd say.

Marc, the desire to take a dump is id-based. I don't see my rectum as having Godlike powers, though. Albeit with some difficulty, I've learned to control it.

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/17/2010 2:27:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
If there is any "dominance" in the situation you describe, it's the dominance of a penis over its owner.

Heh, exactly. And as a point of record, not all us penis owners feel the need to let the appendage in question run the show.

And to SlaveKal's post. Yes, I am male and yes I experience the various biochemical things that go on in the presence of an attractive woman. That's where self-discipline comes in. I was just shopping for pants for Carol and while she was trying them on, my eye was caught by some cute little hottie. I didn't find it all that difficult to simply put that aside and resume waiting for my wife.

I think it's also worth noting that there is nothing particularly one-sided about this. Last I heard, men catch women's eyes also and those women sometimes allow that attraction to influence their thoughts and actions.

< Message edited by leadership527 -- 5/17/2010 2:33:15 PM >

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/17/2010 2:49:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

There's nothing wrong with those "sub feelings" Peon - theyre merely personal interpretations of quite natural inclinations. The important difference is in knowing what they are and what they are not.

Oh I know! I agree totally on both counts.

quote:

As for the dominant partner in a d/s relationship, they too wish to please and to give themselves to their partners

Do they really?

To be honest, I still, even now, don't feel I've got much of a clue about what drives dominants. It's not for the want of trying to find out, either.

quote:

My opinion of "men's volatile emotions" is that this arises primarily from the inner struggle going on between natural emotional expression and the cultural ideal to which they cling or the vestiges of it. Rather than feeling able to express themselves naturally, they get caught up and being frustrated exhibit those negative behaviours to which you allude.

I didn't say that men's aggression is inherently negative, Lady E. I said that others have seen aggression that way. Without aggression, I don't think society would even exist. The first fight we had was defensive, and against nature. It needed to be won, otherwise humans wouldn't even exist today.

Hmm. I wouldn't be too hasty about abandoning cultural ideals in order to allow natural male inclinations their free reign. I was sitting in a cafe today with quite a tasty woman sitting nearby. There were no police in evidence. Her clothes remained unripped by my hands or those of any other male. I consider that this was a good thing.

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/17/2010 2:54:57 PM

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Nonsense Peon.

The power of the overwhelming mind control techniques of the female are just as able to keep you in check as to lure you to your doom.

E

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/17/2010 3:01:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

And to SlaveKal's post. Yes, I am male and yes I experience the various biochemical things that go on in the presence of an attractive woman. That's where self-discipline comes in. I was just shopping for pants for Carol and while she was trying them on, my eye was caught by some cute little hottie. I didn't find it all that difficult to simply put that aside and resume waiting for my wife.

I think it's also worth noting that there is nothing particularly one-sided about this. Last I heard, men catch women's eyes also and those women sometimes allow that attraction to influence their thoughts and actions.

The article to which SlaveKal is referring cited a study observing that females weren't as distracted by attractive males in the way males were to attractive females. Another study linked "reproductive opportunity" reactions in men with elevated levels of cortisol, a stress hormone, in the body. All the more reason to underscore your point about self-discipline in men, I suppose.

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/17/2010 4:33:10 PM

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quote:

It often makes me wish I could tell them something, let them know how awesome it can be on 'the other side of hot'.

I know that feeling all too well.

- LA

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/17/2010 4:38:25 PM

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quote:

quote:

It is perfectly natural for a man to wish to please and to give to his mate his entire being, just as it is equally natural for a woman to wish to do likewise.

That 'naturalness' of the desire for a man to wish to give his entire being to a woman would no doubt sound good to the ears of a sub-male - but would it sound good to those of a dominant male or female? If not, do femdoms and maledoms have desires that are 'unnatural'? You can't be saying this, surely?

I think LadyE has a point in terms of the power being lent, but I think for a great deal of the men, that lending is being done on such an unconscious level that it comes across as natural.

But as LadyE states, with maturity, and I'd say with emotional intelligence as well, a man becomes more conscious of this and less a little puppy in heat that humps women's legs.

- LA

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/17/2010 5:05:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Nonsense Peon.

The power of the overwhelming mind control techniques of the female are just as able to keep you in check as to lure you to your doom.

E

Well, I have to admit that. My ex-girlfriend certainly had the ability, beyond any male I've ever met, to give me a migraine at the drop of a hat.

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/17/2010 5:22:47 PM

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quote:

LadyAngelika

I think LadyE has a point in terms of the power being lent, but I think for a great deal of the men, that lending is being done on such an unconscious level that it comes across as natural.

But as LadyE states, with maturity, and I'd say with emotional intelligence as well, a man becomes more conscious of this and less a little puppy in heat that humps women's legs.

- LA

Actually, I think there's a short cut, LA. A man just has to learn how to wank vigorously, and often. I have achieved this art to the highest degree, I'm proud to say.

In so doing, I've been able to see past the Goddess-exterior to the vain, funny, screwy creatures that they are, riddled with hang-ups that I find hard to fathom. But I still quite like them.

I honestly don't know how I've managed to preserve my sub-nature, sometimes, knowing women as I do.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 5/17/2010 5:23:52 PM >

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RE: The natural power that women have over men... - 5/17/2010 5:25:49 PM

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slavekal, that doesn't sound like power that women have. Possibly it could be viewed as a weakness that some men have, but none of those things are particularly useful to women, though they can be fun.

I've been in subspace before, and have evoked subspace in both men and women, which usually involves a much more dramatic, ramped up response. When I'm unable to utter polysyllabic words and can barely walk straight, it doesn't make my Master stronger, but he does think it's cute, and sexy. I don't feel more powerful just because I can get that kind of response from someone, either.

(in reply to slavekal)

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