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RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 5:59:02 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

http://www.collarchat.com/m_281198/mpage_1/key_sub%252Cslave/tm.htm#281512
Link to 7 threads on discussion of sub/slave

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to knees2you)

Post #: 21

RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 6:01:50 AM

PhoenixLM

Posts: 79
Joined: 5/12/2005
From: Fort Wayne, Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybeican

A submissive trys to control from the bottom.

I disagree the submissive maintains rights and privaliges indepedent of the owner, agreed to prior to submission, they may also readdress issues as they come up or change; where as a slave does not have this right unless granted to them by the owner. Slaves adopt the limits of the owner. The thing I see alot of times is bottoms being left out of the equation.
Bottoms are people who submit in a scene for a specific period of time hving many limits and all directly play related. This person will often call a safe word if a scene is not going to thier liking. You might be a dominant and bottom I have met slaves who are expert tops. This does not make either person a switch.

_____________________________

Phoenix
House Ds Haven
http://dshaven.com

(in reply to maybeican)

Post #: 22

RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 6:09:41 AM

FLsubmalecd

Posts: 143
Status: offline

Like so many other issues, protocol etc. I think the terms are totally up to the couple to choose along with it's meaning to it. My past Mistress did not like the term slave at all. Then she asked me why I liked it and what it meant to me. She then changed her opinion of the use of the term between us. She in time even began calling me her slave. I liked the term and did consider myself her slave. However, my use of the term does not fit with what some of you have posted. And that's OK. To each their own.
If your submission is what you feel is that of a slave, fine, use the term and give no thought to what anyone other then your Master/Mistress decides it is or isn't.

_____________________________

"Don't make someone a priority in your life, When you're only an option in theirs"

(in reply to knees2you)

Post #: 23

RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 6:12:18 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PhoenixLM
Bottoms are people who submit in a scene for a specific period of time hving many limits and all directly play related.

Not agreeing with that "many limits" concept. I bottom to people all the time who have lots more limits than I do. I don't care what their limits are unless they interfere with whatever scene we happy to want to do. If I just want a hot fucking with some suspension bondage, what do I care if they WON'T do electric play or age play?

quote:

This person will often call a safe word if a scene is not going to thier liking.

That's a do-me bottom. Bottoms are no more or less likely to safe call than anyone else.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to PhoenixLM)

Post #: 24

RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 6:17:43 AM

maybeican

Posts: 25
Joined: 9/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DiannaVesta

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybeican

There is a total difference between a slave and a submissive. A slave devotes their life to the One they serve. A submissive trys to control from the bottom.

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!! I almost peed my pants laughing when I read this!

To have my comment reviewed by The Goddess Dianna is indeed a pleasure. Your fame spreads far and wide. Though I don't agree with Your previous profession, I do understand it is a needed part of society and You were well renown.
My original comment was to the point. The reason for this, is I wanted to express the delusion most people have about the slave/submissive debates. Most people think a slave is a mindless door mat. This is so far from the truth. A submissive comes to the point in their life where they learn to grow in that submission. They grow to the point of becoming a slave. Most slaves are very intelligent and articulate in how they portray themselves. Giving up the control because they have found the One that excepts their destiny. Slavery is not for everyone. Submission is easier for a natural submissive to grow with. They have some control. Alot of submissives do top from the bottom; at certain times. More power to them. The world needs submissives and slaves, just like it needs Dominates.
So I recant the general comment I made and replace it with this.
A slave is one who has no choice but to follow their destiny.
A submissive can grow either way.

_____________________________

Have a wonderfully giving day.

(in reply to DiannaVesta)

Post #: 25

RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 6:19:42 AM

Tikkiee

Posts: 1099
Joined: 4/6/2006
Status: offline

quote:

Bottoms are people who submit in a scene for a specific period of time hving many limits and all directly play related.

I have to disagree with this also. I am a masochistic bottom; not a submissive, not a slave; just a bottom, and yet, I have very, very few limits. The limits that I DO have, are constantly being pushed by my boyfriend..

quote:

This person will often call a safe word if a scene is not going to thier liking

I understand what you are saying here, but your wording is extremely bad. If I safeworded simply because "I did not like the way things were going", my BF would ignore me. If I safeworded because things were getting TOO INTENSE, then yes, he stops and we find out why.

_____________________________

~~@ cass @~~

(in reply to PhoenixLM)

Post #: 26

RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 6:24:54 AM

Zenonis

Posts: 25
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: feastie

The following link leads to a page which gives the best definitions of bottom, submissive and slave I have ever seen. However, this, like anything else, is not carved in stone and exceptions and humanity do apply. I also believe that whether someone is a submissive or slave depends entirely on the dynamics between her and her owner. I also think that almost any submissive has the potential to grow into slavery with the right person. Unfortunately, it's not black and white, cut and dried. Humans are involved.

http://www.westom.com/leather/nine_degrees_of_submission.htm

Good example of how I see the entire bottom/sub/slave "labels". It is a spectrum from one end to the other with the differences being, mainly, the mental aspects of power exchange between the two people evolved. And that interplay is the main difference between them.
It is not three nice neat little cubby holes that everyone fits into. Most that I have known have progressed along this path until they find their place that is good for them.

(in reply to feastie)

Post #: 27

RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 6:36:17 AM

Sekhemet

Posts: 127
Joined: 7/10/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

The difference between a slave and a submissive - allow Me to show you how truly simple this is:
A submissive worships and follows their fears, they love their fears, they live for their fears. A submissive might show a Top their fears, their concerns and their dilemmas but they will NEVER give up or gift those concerns, fears, and problems to the dominant to fix, to protect them from, or to work with. A submissive bows only to their fears, and would be lost without that directional bearing - to a sub their fears are the end all and be all in life. They are not ready to accept life any other way.
A slave on the other hand is happy and willing to share those fears and seeks someone who CAN protect them from these things, who WILL work in an effort to allay the concerns and who DESIRES to be there for them.
A slave - presents the Top their horror/fears, and asks you protect and guard them from it, they would rather focus on being slave than being afraid.
A submissive - tries to hide the fears, and in the end the relationship CANNOT be anything more than an ongoing battle and power struggle of ILLUSION, because the control is in the hands of the fear - not the Top or the bottom. So the whole relationship is an illusion, it's not just you against them - But you against them and this unknown fear, which is why the power struggles ALWAYS happen and ALWAYS turn ugly.

The greatest gift and honour a slave could give a Top is handing over that fear, and giving Us the trust, the honour. We talk about the the GIFT of a slave - this is the GIFT We are talking about as Dominants, not being on your knees ... And it comes with a lot of responsibility. This is why it is always a 2 way street and has to be in order to work and work well. You have to trust Me enough to tell Me first - then you have to trust Me enough to give it over to Me as well - many find this extremely hard to do, and want us to TAKE IT - but that doesn't work either.
I can not forcibly take your fears from you, and I can not "know" - if the fear is commitment; Yes I can see that - What I can not see, is if this is because you are worried about: rejection, abandonment, love addiction, abuse, etc - THIS is why it must be spoken and gifted to the Lady - Otherwise it's all theatrics and hollow scenes.

A submissive - worships and answers to their fears.
A slave - gives those fears to their Top and trusts the Top to do their best to protect them. A slave accepts that We're NOT perfect as Tops and sometimes they MAY get hit with shrapnel or a stray round ... But they also know it's not intentional and We're here to work to heal and fix that wound too - And a slave will ALLOW US TO be there. A submissive will instead scream and yell and take fits; Insult belittle, and ridicule - And then run out.
But the submissive never actually gave up that power and control anyway - so there is nothing there to be so animated about, let them go.

A slave ... or a submissive.
The equation is simple as sin, the results are as confusing as geometric algebra. But boil it down and that's what's behind the level of control ... is that fear and being able to gift it, and put it away - or not.
A submissive honours and holds to their fear ...
A slave would rather evolve beyond it, and move to a new realm of comfort.

XxoxX
Just My 2 cents ... Just an opinion ...

(in reply to Leather134)

Post #: 28

RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 6:42:30 AM

slavejali

Posts: 2918
Status: offline

A slave wants to give all, a submissive wants to hold back a bit.
Yet, a slave by nature is submissive. Odd huh *grin*

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to Sekhemet)

Post #: 29

RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 6:45:15 AM

Tikkiee

Posts: 1099
Joined: 4/6/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

A slave wants to give all, a submissive wants to hold back a bit.
Yet, a slave by nature is submissive. Odd huh *grin*

LOL maybe there is more truth to the thought that they are more the same then different? Nice analogy.

_____________________________

~~@ cass @~~

(in reply to slavejali)

Post #: 30

RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 6:48:27 AM

DiannaVesta

Posts: 1087
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Mid-Atlantic area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybeican

quote:

ORIGINAL: DiannaVesta

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybeican

There is a total difference between a slave and a submissive. A slave devotes their life to the One they serve. A submissive trys to control from the bottom.

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!! I almost peed my pants laughing when I read this!

To have my comment reviewed by The Goddess Dianna is indeed a pleasure. Your fame spreads far and wide. Though I don't agree with Your previous profession, I do understand it is a needed part of society and You were well renown.
My original comment was to the point. The reason for this, is I wanted to express the delusion most people have about the slave/submissive debates. Most people think a slave is a mindless door mat. This is so far from the truth. A submissive comes to the point in their life where they learn to grow in that submission. They grow to the point of becoming a slave. Most slaves are very intelligent and articulate in how they portray themselves. Giving up the control because they have found the One that excepts their destiny. Slavery is not for everyone. Submission is easier for a natural submissive to grow with. They have some control. Alot of submissives do top from the bottom; at certain times. More power to them. The world needs submissives and slaves, just like it needs Dominates.
So I recant the general comment I made and replace it with this.
A slave is one who has no choice but to follow their destiny.
A submissive can grow either way.

I’m not sure what you mean. I think it’s funny because in a sense it is to the point & I believe that some old timers in BDSM would laugh because it’s true. No in every case but I just found it to be funny because of its irony.

I would be the last person in the world to ever think of a slave as a door mat or underestimate the power of submission. I may be the one holding the whip and throwing out commands like I own the world but I do understand the power of the dynamic. I may allow some that are not so smart or privileged to serve me & it is THEY who fall into doormat mode. My preference is one who is strong, intelligent and spiritually sound. I want a man/woman who bites the world in the ass and submits ONLY to me. If I wanted wet rags that required so much work & little thought, these are a dime a dozen.

In all my years I have only collared 3 as slaves. A slave is the most precious of all my possessions and not easy to come by. Submissives are everywhere in all shapes, sizes and colors.

_____________________________

(in reply to maybeican)

Post #: 31

RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 6:56:28 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali
A slave wants to give all, a submissive wants to hold back a bit.
Yet, a slave by nature is submissive. Odd huh *grin*

So masters don't want to give all?

And many slaves would say they are not submissive by nature.

I also don't think you'll find many subs who say they want to hold back- it's simply that they don't define themselves as a slave. I know I could name a ton of people who others define as slaves but they define themselves as submissive and vice versa.

I'm not meaning to particularly pick on your definition- any person's definition here I could go "Except for this whole group of people over here who believe exactly the opposite."

This definition debate will never end. The only people we can define things for is ourselves.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to slavejali)

Post #: 32

RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 7:09:56 AM

slavejali

Posts: 2918
Status: offline

Yeah, its really hard to define these *terms*. The've been made up by someone along the way, with no hard and fast rule for identification..everyone thinks something a little different...so its impossible to really have a conversation about...who is going to be right? No-one, everyone *grin*

With the give it all thing, you could change that to surrender all, surrender being the act of submission.

quote:

Original Quote: LuckyAlbatross
And many slaves would say they are not submissive by nature.

If they are not submissive by nature, is what they are doing an *act*? (Im just playing with this btw)

I know for myself, in my most intimate revelations of myself which comes through relationship I am submissive, yet in everyday life I get what needs to be done, done. You could even say I'm dominant..but it really is just about getting things done..I dont have to share my most intimate me in those kinda everyday situations.

I am slave to Master...he gets that part of me, that most intimate part, the most real sharing of myself. In fact, cuz he gets that part, he gets it all.

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 33

RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 8:05:09 AM

ivorylace

Posts: 56
Joined: 3/26/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybeican

There is a total difference between a slave and a submissive. A slave devotes their life to the One they serve. A submissive trys to control from the bottom.

You are kidding right?

I am submissive, it is something I am, I do not attempt to top from the bottom ever. Do I have limits? damn right I do.

Generalizing is not a good trait usually, think beyond and learn.

~lace

(in reply to maybeican)

Post #: 34

RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 8:17:03 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

ok, first off, when Master saw the title to this thread he said to His slave "Go get the BIG knife", referencing the line Nick Cage spoke in Moonstruck, when He was moved to end it all, rather than attend His brother's wedding. After retrieving said knife for Him, thankfully, He changed His mind...

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

quote:

Original Quote: LuckyAlbatross
And many slaves would say they are not submissive by nature.

If they are not submissive by nature, is what they are doing an *act*? (Im just playing with this btw)

all playing aside, absolutely, slavejali! certain situations and societal pressure from the past forced this slave to learn how to "act" dominant~however, it is not this slave's nature whatsoever. "acting" dominant is a very uncomfortable, un-natural, fake persona that this slave "puts on" for the benefit of dog-training and occasional unmentionable tug-of-wars. some folks are very fulfilled by "acting" submissive and going against their nature... some report that they feel balanced by this, or it is even more special because it is NOT their nature, their "act" being somewhat of a gift to the one they are in the relationship with. this slave is happy for them!!! however, this slave receives no pleasure, no release and no "balance" when "acting" , especially if she is required to "act" dominant, or some other way that is in contrast with this slave's nature.

as to the OP-
"...would still talk to them about wanting to do something to them, right?"

"talk to them" as in~the asking of permission? No
"talk to them" as in~letting them know what to expect to happen? maybe
"talk to them" as in~letting them know how to prepare themselves for what was on the agenda? maybe

(in reply to slavejali)

Post #: 35

RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 9:06:07 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: knees2you

People say that there is a difference between
Submissives and Slaves, but what I want to know is
Either way You are doing what was told Correct.
Is that right?

Even a Master or Mistress who have a Slave
would still talk to them about wanting to
do something to them, right?

quote:

"Yes I Said It!"

Always, Ant

For me, submissive is both a personality trait and a focus on giving over your choices and decisions to someone else.

For me, slave is a role and an outlook; its serving another person and that might require not being submissive or in need of someone else making decisions all the time.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to knees2you)

Post #: 36

RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 9:53:52 AM

truesub4u

Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

Well hell, for the most part, everyone that has seen me post on here knows I have different views on the whole sub/slave dynamics. It also depends on if you are refering to the "Owned" sub and or slave. One that is not owned thinks one way, one that is owned thinks another. (Refazed... SOME are like this) I'm a submissive... down to the bone.. to the one I choose to submit to. And that someone will be the one that will know how to make me want to.... not just try to make me. When I submit to someone, I, to my knowledge to do try to top from the bottom. Unless stating limits before hand in considered doing that. Then of course I do. I do however think that a submissive can grow with the right one into slavery as well. So in agreeing with other post... I too believe it's all within the dynamics of the ones involved in the relationships.

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 37

RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 9:57:38 AM

badpaliden

Posts: 96
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline

As I understand it a sub holds back/retaines the ability to deside what will/or won't be done to them in a set time period..and expect to have any limits stated and argeed/negotioated to, respected and that negotations are renewed usualy in a set time frame. I.E. Year to year.. As to a Slave.. they have made the final choice, to give up that very ability in their lifes and allow another to make those (day to day and other )choices for them. Of course this is a bare bones look at it (and your mileage may vary...)and the futher aspects will depend on the people involved .being as varied as the people involed in the relationship! As to what else is included and is "normal" ...well again as deverse as those involed.
After all this is all voluntary, with the sub\slave having the final say by just walking away if they wish..(talk about finale say!)
It is sometimes hard for certin Tops/Dom(mes) to realise that the power comes from the Bottom/Sub/Slave... and that they have the ultimate power... to just say no! So I guess its all a matter of "degrees" as to what one is to another.. of course this is just my opinion

(in reply to Leather134)

Post #: 38

RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 9:58:50 AM

pickypetite

Posts: 6
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline

smiles to truesub4u....thanks for that input...i thought i would be the only one to think that way... lol glad to know someone else does and i am not alone...

(in reply to truesub4u)

Post #: 39

RE: Slave/Submissive not the Same or are they? - 4/10/2006 10:04:02 AM

mixielicous

Posts: 1283
Joined: 4/6/2006
From: Boston area, Massachusetts
Status: offline

i find this all very interesting, because, it does vary dastically from person to person
i consider myself, a "sub"

BUT

do i wear a collar? yes [as of the 16th at least]
do i say no? absolutley not
do i have a safeword? no [but W/we have decided He will reconsider if i say 'uh if W/we do this it may hurt me in a way that would not benifit Your pleasure in the future"]
do i have a say in play? no
did i neggotiate my terms before hand in a contract? yes [also to be signed the 16th]
do i top from the bottom? hell no
do i ask permission before i do anything [except for mundane, like BR etc] yes
do i live 24/7? yes
do i call myself slave? no
does he own me? yes

i find these labels frustrating, b/c in many ways, i AM a slave [we have both agreed to not liking gthe terminology, thats why W/we dont use it]

it is entirely subjective to how you and yours want to define the parameters.

(in reply to Leather134)

Post #: 40

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