RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/26/2010 2:56:18 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Anyone who can get up the money can plaster whatever religious or non religious sign they wish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Many groups, including religious ones, face such threats... its not just an atheist thing.

Aren't these two statements contradictory?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Made alot of people wonder if these claims werent lies in order to draw more attention to the movement. Oddly enough, no charges were ever pressed.

Is this a conspiracy theory?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/26/2010 4:47:00 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

ahh, vincent, my friend ...

I hear and understand all of your points. Yet, I get the feeling that your end quote (which I like and admire, and use on occasion) might also be appropriately more internalized than your post presents.

In my understanding, the multiverse is a theory more based on the dual wave/particle and probability nature of light and sub-atomic particles, than on the origins of our universe.

Also, there are still some "unknowns", and some "unknown unknowns" about the universe (can you say "dark matter/energy"), that present problems with our current scientific understanding of the birth of the universe.

I would also say that we really don't have enough information to make any kind of statistical evaluation of the probability of life elsewhere in the universe. Yes, I'm familiar with the Drake equation. But I'm also familiar with the unproven assumptions that went into making it.

Regards,

Firm

Firm, what with all the talk of reaching the 50th page, I thought this thread was dead and so I was not going to answer you here. However, i see Steel has kept the beast alive so let me make a reply.

First, there is more than just one multiverse hypothesis, not just the one to which you refer. They all aim to solve one or another unknown in the ever developing model of cosmology. Unless I find good reason not to, I tend to side with those who say these multiverse hypothesis are useless because they cannot be falsified. They can't be tested with the current state of our instruments and procedures. Consequently, they are no different for me than the hypothesis that the Universe had an intelligent creator or for that fact that matter/energy always existed eternally back in time without beginning.

I did not raise the multiverse issue in this thread. I was responding to tnai. He brought it up.

As for dark matter there seems to be indirect evidence of its existence by unpredictable variations in the doppler effect of rotating galaxies. There is a mass that gives off no radiation in the electromagnetic spectra and so escapes our detection instruments. Such a description would fit black holes I guess. As for dark energy, not sure it has been detected or just an hypothesis to satisfy some errant piece of the model. I won't pretend to have a firm grasp on all of this.

As for the probability of life elsewhere in the Universe, it may be so that Drakes's equation is not a useful tool. Apperently, he did not intend it to be the final instrument. The point is, however, there are other known planets in other star systems, so one has the choice to either accept the possibility that Life may have taken hold elsewhere or go with the pre-copernican, pre-galilean notion that we are Special and at the center of "creation."

Finally, I gladly acknowledge and accept that there are more things in the Universe than are dreamt of in my philosophy. That's what makes life so interesting.

Cheers ...!

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/26/2010 4:54:08 PM

Owner59

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Because even thought atheism literally means no belief in any sort of higher/lower spiritual entity,they are in fact,satan worshipers.

And so are those dammed pagans.....

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 6/26/2010 4:55:21 PM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/26/2010 4:56:28 PM

AQuietSimpleMan

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Riiiiiiiiigggggggghhhhhhhttttttttt.

Thanks for the enlightment.

Athiest = Satan Worshiper
Pagan = Satan Worshiper

So no Christmas Tree for you then right?

QSM

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/26/2010 5:01:30 PM

Plasticine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tnai

And there I was surrounded by fog lights.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine
The reading comment was low, I apologize... moment of weakness.

Accepted but unneeded, I wasn't upset. Just pointing out that it doesn't relate to the conversation.

Since people seem interested in what I have and have not read, I'll give you my best estimate. I do read quite a bit. I own about 2300 books, about 1900 of which I put in storage after reading. Maybe another 200 past that I read (fully or in part) for school or entertainment that I didn't keep. Mostly fiction, a fair amount of science "fact", history, what are called the classics, and very little religion, maybe a dozen books if that on the subject, and not just limited to Christianity. I've read more philosophy mainly Socrates, Frederick Nichieze, and Machiavelli (although I'd not really call him a philosopher, but that's a whole different subject. Yes I have read the Bible, a few different versions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine
That said, I still don't see you saying anything other than that you think that the current scientific view is silly. That it just seems silly to you. You are conceding the strawman because you can't see how anyone could understand atheism. Is that not what you are saying?

I'm conceding the Straw Man because I don't see how anyone could take atheism as a serious position, I think I understand the concept. I don't think that the science is in and of itself silly. I think the idea that that many things happen in just the right order on there own is silly. Since those who have take it have already taken it the weakest position I can think of I personally don’t worry about if I am attacking a weaker position.

Yeah see you are making the weakest possible argument, as I initially suggested. I believe we call this the argument from the position of denial. You are making a strawman of science and a fool of atheists. I've not bothered to dissect any given religious belief here but I'll make an exception for you:

I think the idea of immaculate conception is just silly. It just sounds silly to me. Since it so obviously couldn't happen I take those who assert it to be taking the weakest possible position.

Now I'll be the first to admit that this is a terrible argument, can you see why yours is too?

< Message edited by Plasticine -- 6/26/2010 5:03:16 PM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/26/2010 6:59:56 PM

tnai

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

ORIGINAL: tnai

And there I was surrounded by fog lights.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine
The reading comment was low, I apologize... moment of weakness.

Accepted but unneeded, I wasn't upset. Just pointing out that it doesn't relate to the conversation.

Since people seem interested in what I have and have not read, I'll give you my best estimate. I do read quite a bit. I own about 2300 books, about 1900 of which I put in storage after reading. Maybe another 200 past that I read (fully or in part) for school or entertainment that I didn't keep. Mostly fiction, a fair amount of science "fact", history, what are called the classics, and very little religion, maybe a dozen books if that on the subject, and not just limited to Christianity. I've read more philosophy mainly Socrates, Frederick Nichieze, and Machiavelli (although I'd not really call him a philosopher, but that's a whole different subject. Yes I have read the Bible, a few different versions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine
That said, I still don't see you saying anything other than that you think that the current scientific view is silly. That it just seems silly to you. You are conceding the strawman because you can't see how anyone could understand atheism. Is that not what you are saying?

I'm conceding the Straw Man because I don't see how anyone could take atheism as a serious position, I think I understand the concept. I don't think that the science is in and of itself silly. I think the idea that that many things happen in just the right order on there own is silly. Since those who have take it have already taken it the weakest position I can think of I personally don’t worry about if I am attacking a weaker position.

Yeah see you are making the weakest possible argument, as I initially suggested. I believe we call this the argument from the position of denial. You are making a strawman of science and a fool of atheists. I've not bothered to dissect any given religious belief here but I'll make an exception for you:

I think the idea of immaculate conception is just silly. It just sounds silly to me. Since it so obviously couldn't happen I take those who assert it to be taking the weakest possible position.

Now I'll be the first to admit that this is a terrible argument, can you see why yours is too?

Because you are talking about concrete and I am talking about oranges. As I have said over and over and don't try and read into this take it as literally as possible - since the position of atheism seems so bad to me already I have not worried about falling victim to the Straw Man Fallacy. That's it, that is the whole point of what I am saying. If you want to state anything beyond that fine, or address any of my underlying logic go for it. But when it comes to the Straw Man Fallacy that is it.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/26/2010 7:13:18 PM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan

Riiiiiiiiigggggggghhhhhhhttttttttt.

Thanks for the enlightment.

Athiest = Satan Worshiper
Pagan = Satan Worshiper

So no Christmas Tree for you then right?

QSM

Meh...I`m pretty sure Jesus had a Christmas tree.

Why else would it be called a Christ-mas tree?!?!!

That`s good enough for me...

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/26/2010 7:22:27 PM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tnai

Because you are talking about concrete and I am talking about oranges. As I have said over and over and don't try and read into this take it as literally as possible - since the position of atheism seems so bad to me already I have not worried about falling victim to the Straw Man Fallacy. That's it, that is the whole point of what I am saying. If you want to state anything beyond that fine, or address any of my underlying logic go for it. But when it comes to the Straw Man Fallacy that is it.

So what`s so bad about atheism?

It`s not anti-theism or anti-anything.

Like apolitical,it means no elegance or dog in the fight.Apolitical aren`t against others over their politics and most folks don`t hold an apolitical`s neutrality against them, either.

So why are some theists, so threatened by atheists?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/26/2010 9:48:26 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine
Yeah see you are making the weakest possible argument, as I initially suggested. I believe we call this the argument from the position of denial.

I think it's actually an argument from personal incredulity.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/26/2010 10:00:26 PM

Owner59

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If one thinks about it,Christianity and to a lesser degree,Judaism and Islam make an offer that can`t be refused.

On one hand,if you join the club,you get everlasting life,peace and light in heaven.

And on the other,if you don`t sign up,you get continual torturous flesh burning and every horror imaginable for ever and ever.

So let`s think about this......Fun forever in heaven or the pit of death and poop in hell??????

Not really much of a choice now.Is there?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/26/2010 11:24:47 PM

Plasticine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine
Yeah see you are making the weakest possible argument, as I initially suggested. I believe we call this the argument from the position of denial.

I think it's actually an argument from personal incredulity.

Very good. I concede.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/26/2010 11:42:35 PM

Plasticine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tnai
Because you are talking about concrete and I am talking about oranges. As I have said over and over and don't try and read into this take it as literally as possible - since the position of atheism seems so bad to me already I have not worried about falling victim to the Straw Man Fallacy. That's it, that is the whole point of what I am saying. If you want to state anything beyond that fine, or address any of my underlying logic go for it. But when it comes to the Straw Man Fallacy that is it.

And I am saying that despite your very reserved and polite demeanor you are taking the position of "philosophical asshole". Your stance is about as intolerant as possible. Is intolerance a virtue in your religion?

Even the worst arguments in this thread have been made by some attempt to reference objective reality. You are basically claiming that another worldview is entirely invalid because it is in mild contradiction to yours. That is a terrible argument.

Whether you realize it or not you are the poster child for this thread's OP.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/27/2010 12:09:38 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
If one thinks about it,Christianity and to a lesser degree,Judaism and Islam make an offer that can`t be refused.

On one hand,if you join the club,you get everlasting life,peace and light in heaven.

And on the other,if you don`t sign up,you get continual torturous flesh burning and every horror imaginable for ever and ever.

So let`s think about this......Fun forever in heaven or the pit of death and poop in hell??????

Not really much of a choice now.Is there?

What is the difference between that statement and telling me that I need to stay on Zeus's good side so that I don't get thrown into Tartarus?

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 6/27/2010 12:10:03 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/27/2010 10:19:50 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine
Yeah see you are making the weakest possible argument, as I initially suggested. I believe we call this the argument from the position of denial.

I think it's actually an argument from personal incredulity.

Furthermore, he really lacks a grasp of what Evolution Theory is about if he thinks as he says "it is that many things happen in just the right order on their own.." The man has little grasp of the concept.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/27/2010 10:32:11 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Has been suggested... not... Wiki/We/This site, ect suggests. Anyone can suggest anything.

Wiki/We/This site didn't write the article either, the issue was raised in the same manner the article was written. Quoting a source to support your opinion while ignoring the part of said source that disagrees with your opinion....I didn't think that was generally considered ok....

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/27/2010 10:42:54 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Anyone who can get up the money can plaster whatever religious or non religious sign they wish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Many groups, including religious ones, face such threats... its not just an atheist thing.

Aren't these two statements contradictory?

How do you view them as contradictory?

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Made alot of people wonder if these claims werent lies in order to draw more attention to the movement. Oddly enough, no charges were ever pressed.

Is this a conspiracy theory?

I dont think its illogical to believe if someone was sending death threats, the police would be involved. They have admitted this "has never happened before". Last i recall, threats of death are a legal matter.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/27/2010 10:54:00 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Has been suggested... not... Wiki/We/This site, ect suggests. Anyone can suggest anything.

Wiki/We/This site didn't write the article either, the issue was raised in the same manner the article was written. Quoting a source to support your opinion while ignoring the part of said source that disagrees with your opinion....I didn't think that was generally considered ok....

It doesnt disagree.

Disambiguation pages on Wikipedia are used as a process of resolving conflicts in article titles that occur when a single term can be associated with more than one topic, making that term likely to be the natural title for more than one article. In other words, disambiguations are paths leading to different articles which could, in principle, have the same title.

Im sure you can find the link in Wiki for this definition.

But, i will provide it just in case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Disambiguation

Now, since i was not using faith in the religious sense, i dont see this as a problem. If i had been speaking of faith in that sense, then yes, i would go to the Faith (religion) page. I was referring to faith (note the small "f" there for those who insist upon such things).

As with "trust", faith involves a concept of future events or outcomes, and is used conversely for a belief "not resting on logical proof or material evidence."[3][4] Informal usage of the word "faith" can be quite broad, and may be used in place of "trust" or "belief."

Faith is often used in a religious context, as in theology, where it almost universally refers to a trusting belief in a transcendent reality, or else in a Supreme Being and/or this being's role in the order of transcendent, spiritual things

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith

Since i was using the term in the broader sense, this page is quite acceptable.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 6/27/2010 10:55:22 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/27/2010 11:37:00 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan

Riiiiiiiiigggggggghhhhhhhttttttttt.

Thanks for the enlightment.

Athiest = Satan Worshiper
Pagan = Satan Worshiper

So no Christmas Tree for you then right?

QSM

Any festival that involves sticking the pointy end of a tree up a fairy's arse can't be very Christian, can it? God hates that sort of thing.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/27/2010 5:12:35 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2
Steel, I am curious, do you feel like you've gotten anything resolved, or gotten your question answered throughout all of this?

Actually I have had an interesting epiphany during this thread. I'd heard Plasticine's position before:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine
Your worldview necessarily invokes faith by its design. Trying to pin down the views of someone who rejects that entirely in terms of how you understand the world is never EVER going to work.

But it had never really made sense to me, I'd always wondered if it wasn't really just a cop out. However, in doing research for a response in another thread a came across a function MRI study on how we think through other people's positions. It turns out that the part of the brain associated with self is used to one extent or another.

So for instance, I can understand that if a person who's faith is active in every aspect of their lives, one who can't conceive of living without faith, tries to work through my thought process and fills in the missing pieces with their thought process that they would react the conclusion that I have faith. I suppose such a person would disagree with me as they would very clearly see me using faith in their mental simulation of me.

I wonder how to convince such a person that they see me using faith because they added the faith.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 6/27/2010 5:14:14 PM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/27/2010 6:56:03 PM

Plasticine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Actually I have had an interesting epiphany during this thread. I'd heard Plasticine's position before:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine
Your worldview necessarily invokes faith by its design. Trying to pin down the views of someone who rejects that entirely in terms of how you understand the world is never EVER going to work.

But it had never really made sense to me, I'd always wondered if it wasn't really just a cop out. However, in doing research for a response in another thread a came across a function MRI study on how we think through other people's positions. It turns out that the part of the brain associated with self is used to one extent or another.

So for instance, I can understand that if a person who's faith is active in every aspect of their lives, one who can't conceive of living without faith, tries to work through my thought process and fills in the missing pieces with their thought process that they would react the conclusion that I have faith. I suppose such a person would disagree with me as they would very clearly see me using faith in their mental simulation of me.

I wonder how to convince such a person that they see me using faith because they added the faith.

The research I will be assisting in this summer is about the relation between empathy and mirror neuron activity in the brain. It is suspected that mirror neurons are responsible for much of how we understand "the other" and they are not an intellectual function but a base primal one. Self-Other Awareness is a form of empathy. So someone may be empathic and believe they experience what the "Other" does but still have only round holes for that emotional square peg. The key to intellectual understanding is reference, those who lack references will be unable to support the weight of any idea that depends upon them.

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