RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist?

Collarchat.com

Home Login Search

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist?

Page: << < prev 51 52 [53] 54 55 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/28/2010 3:11:17 PM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Taking your example, i can say that all atheists believe there is no god because a few who state they are atheists and believe such do exist.

Is this really the way you want to go?

You mean that isn't the way these threads normally go?

LadyC: fair point.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Profile

Post #: 1041

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/29/2010 7:14:05 AM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Not different. religious faith is a subset of faith.

I don't think that's the case, I'm under the impression that what happens in the brain is substantially different.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Profile

Post #: 1042

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/29/2010 7:39:10 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

I don't think that's the case, I'm under the impression that what happens in the brain is substantially different.

Steel, i cant help what you believe, which is what you just stated... that you dont believe that is the case. That is, of course, your belief.

Oddly enough, someone mentioned on the thread about disbelievers ... Thank you Jeff...

quote:

Yes, lets ask the Christians about The Muslims about The Jews about the Hindus.... about narrow-mindedness.

.... And thats when it seemed to click. You dont know anything more about my belief than i know about your ... disbelief... which isnt the correct term but you get my drift... actually, you dont have a term... so its the closet i can come too.

I have tried very hard not to judge you. Merely to try and come up with working definitions. Yet you continue to judge me all the same. My definitions are simple, effective, and within the scope of non-religious use, yet you have fought hard to keep them from being used. I have asked why. I have yet to get a clear answer. That strikes me as rather peculiar.... one of those "hmmm" moments.

I can attest for the fact that believers are tired of being told what to believe by people who claim to have no working understanding of their position. And before the argument returns back to organized religion making determing what we believe, i think enough of us have spoken out stating we dont follow an organized religion to make that statement inaccurate, at least on these boards.

I also find it interesting that so many have decided that Marini's post about narrowmindedness was posted with an eye to incite, yet your thread went beneath the radar. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree and stop the flaming and resentment on these boards by ending such posts as this one and Marini's. They benefit no one, are used to simply start an argument, not a debate, and foster hard feelings from one group or the other.

Then again, depends on what your aim is. I rarely see anyone post a thread promoting any religion. I do often see threads promoting atheism.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Profile

Post #: 1043

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/29/2010 7:46:07 AM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron
True. But there is very little difference between having faith in your partners fidelity (which you cannot see) and having faith in a deity (which you also cannot see).

I'm under the impression that there is a difference, they certainly are different definitions of the word according to your quote and as such using them interchangably would be an equivocation fallacy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron
In fact one could pose the argument that your "confidence or trust" that there is no God takes the same kind of faith as a God believers "confidence or trust" that there is a God.

People commonly do pose that argument to atheists and it's often a straw man because the poser has to give his opposition that position of confidence in order to make it. Furthermore, even if Moonhead did take that position, I seem to recall a study showing that belief and rejection were not the same brain process; I'll look it up when I get home.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron
FAITH
–noun...

When quoting could you please cite your source.

(in reply to LadyCimarron)

Profile

Post #: 1044

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/29/2010 7:56:12 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

Strawman!
There's a place you can go!
I said Strawman!
When you're short of a soul!
You can pray there, and praise the big guy!
Its fun to kneel at the INRI!
Its fun to kneel at the INRI!

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to GotSteel)

Profile

Post #: 1045

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/29/2010 8:52:34 AM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

No, not Belief... belief... as in the belief that i have my keys in my pocket...

Unless you are mentally impaired and there is some question that your keys might be elsewhere, "belief" is an inappropriate word.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Profile

Post #: 1046

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/29/2010 8:54:04 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

As i have stated i often forget my keys, i do believe i used the word appropriately.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Profile

Post #: 1047

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/29/2010 8:57:43 AM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

As i have stated i often forget my keys, i do believe i used the word appropriately.

No you still havent. It is not a matter for belief, it is a matter for recollection and that failing, search. "Belief" doesnt further your search for your keys.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Profile

Post #: 1048

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/29/2010 9:01:50 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

~sighs

quote:

confidence or trust in a person or thing

As far as my keys, i have no confidence or trust, therefore no faith, that i know where they are. Its a lack of faith in myself that i can remember what i do with them once i get home. I am using the word quite appropriately, no matter how much you wish to argue otherwise.

Im not going through this again. Just because you wish to reedfine words that have been in use for longer than both of us have been alive doesnt change the meaning of said words.

I have spoken my peace on this topic.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Profile

Post #: 1049

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/29/2010 9:23:55 AM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

~sighs

quote:

confidence or trust in a person or thing

As far as my keys, i have no confidence or trust, therefore no faith, that i know where they are. Its a lack of faith in myself that i can remember what i do with them once i get home. I am using the word quite appropriately, no matter how much you wish to argue otherwise.

Im not going through this again. Just because you wish to reedfine words that have been in use for longer than both of us have been alive doesnt change the meaning of said words.

I have spoken my peace on this topic.

Youre doing the redefining in some vain attempt to pigeonhole atheists. Not even a good try.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Profile

Post #: 1050

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/29/2010 9:32:06 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Youre doing the redefining in some vain attempt to pigeonhole atheists. Not even a good try.

I will respond to your innaccurate accusation. There was no attempt to pidgeon hole anyone. I even agreed atheists have and hold no religious faith or belief. I do believe they do hold other forms of faiths or beliefs. One even mentioned a "rational operating belief" as his style.... still a belief, reational or not, which has nothing to do with religion.

So, if you gain a feeling that i am trying to pidgeon hole someone based upon that, you have more problems that can be addressed on this thread.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Profile

Post #: 1051

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/29/2010 9:34:03 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

Well put,tazzygirl.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Profile

Post #: 1052

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/29/2010 10:29:27 AM

LadyCimarron

Posts: 625
Joined: 12/29/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I'm under the impression that there is a difference, they certainly are different definitions of the word according to your quote and as such using them interchangably would be an equivocation fallacy.

There are different definitions but the spirit of each definition is still based upon what one believes

People commonly do pose that argument to atheists and it's often a straw man because the poser has to give his opposition that position of confidence in order to make it. Furthermore, even if Moonhead did take that position, I seem to recall a study showing that belief and rejection were not the same brain process; I'll look it up when I get home.

I don’t need to give anyone that position of confidence because if you call yourself an atheist you have given me a word that by definition is a statement of your basic belief about a higher power: That you believe there is none.
a·the·ist     http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist
–noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

No matter how you define faith, if you are speaking of God (or lack of) you are still talking about your beliefs. A theist has faith (or belief) that there is a God; an a-theist has faith (or belief) that there is no God. It is two sides of the same coin (offensive as that might be to both sides). How much or little one believes has not bearing on that.
The two words are antonyms. To say they are opposite but not equal is to assign a position of confidence in either. If someone describes himself as an atheist (or theist) he is declaring his basic belief.  The individual may add or subtract to that as much as it suits his life but that does not change the definition of the word nor the fact that both parties believe (or have faith in) something regarding a higher power.

When quoting could you please cite your source.
FAITH-    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith
–noun...

< Message edited by LadyCimarron -- 6/29/2010 10:33:03 AM >

(in reply to GotSteel)

Profile

Post #: 1053

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/29/2010 11:52:58 AM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

No matter how you define faith, if you are speaking of God (or lack of) you are still talking about your beliefs. A theist has faith (or belief) that there is a God; an a-theist has faith (or belief) that there is no God. It is two sides of the same coin (offensive as that might be to both sides). How much or little one believes has not bearing on that.
The two words are antonyms. To say they are opposite but not equal is to assign a position of confidence in either. If someone describes himself as an atheist (or theist) he is declaring his basic belief. The individual may add or subtract to that as much as it suits his life but that does not change the definition of the word nor the fact that both parties believe (or have faith in) something regarding a higher power.

As .the.dark pointed out much, much earlier in this thread, atheists disbelieve. Disbelief and Belief are antonyms and therefore not the same thing. I do not mean to be impolite, Lady C, but this has been hashed and rehashed over and over in this thread.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to LadyCimarron)

Profile

Post #: 1054

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/29/2010 12:11:38 PM

LadyCimarron

Posts: 625
Joined: 12/29/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

As .the.dark pointed out much, much earlier in this thread, atheists disbelieve. Disbelief and Belief are antonyms and therefore not the same thing. I do not mean to be impolite, Lady C, but this has been hashed and rehashed over and over in this thread.

I never called them the same thing. I called them equal and opposite. A belief is what you hold to be true. Saying you don't believe in something is still stating your belief about it. If the dark disagrees that is good for her. But whatever you believe or hold to be true is a belief for you. Example: "I hold this to be true: there is no God"

un·be·lief http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/unbelief
–noun
the state or quality of not believing; incredulity or skepticism, esp. in matters of doctrine or religious faith.
be·lief http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/belief
–noun

1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat. 2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief. 3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents. 4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

here is an example of each one of these in the context of atheism.

1. I believe there is no God
2. The notion of a higher Power is unworthy of my belief
3. I have a solid belief that there is no God.
4. My personal belief is that God does not exist.

(in reply to vincentML)

Profile

Post #: 1055

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/29/2010 12:15:23 PM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

As .the.dark pointed out much, much earlier in this thread, atheists disbelieve. Disbelief and Belief are antonyms and therefore not the same thing. I do not mean to be impolite, Lady C, but this has been hashed and rehashed over and over in this thread.

I never called them the same thing. I called them equal and opposite. A belief is what you hold to be true. Saying you don't believe in something is still stating your belief about it. If the dark disagrees that is good for her. But whatever you believe or hold to be true is a belief for you. Example: "I hold this to be true: there is no God"

un·be·lief http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/unbelief
–noun
the state or quality of not believing; incredulity or skepticism, esp. in matters of doctrine or religious faith.
be·lief http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/belief
–noun

1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat. 2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief. 3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents. 4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

here is an example of each one of these in the context of atheism.

1. I believe there is no God
2. The notion of a higher Power is unworthy of my belief
3. I have a solid belief that there is no God.
4. My personal belief is that God does not exist.

But you left out the one that forms the majority of atheists positions:

There is no evidence of god.

No need for "belief"

(in reply to LadyCimarron)

Profile

Post #: 1056

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/29/2010 12:16:04 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

moving the method of negation around nullifies it.

I do not belive there is a god.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to LadyCimarron)

Profile

Post #: 1057

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/29/2010 12:31:02 PM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
No, not Belief... belief...

Um, I capitalized belief because it was the first word in a sentence. While I'm not above giving the English language a slap in the face every now and then, I'm not willing to leave it for dead by the side of the road.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
as in the belief that i have my keys in my pocket... but i have no faith... not Faith... that i do because i have a bad habit of forgetting my keys.

And both of these can be considered with a view of trust or lack of.

Even in your sentence these words aren't just other words for trust, they can't be used interchangeably. If they were I should be able to exchange them and the sentence would still make sense:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
as in the trust that i have my keys in my pocket... but i have no trust... not Faith... that i do because i have a bad habit of forgetting my keys.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Profile

Post #: 1058

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/29/2010 12:40:41 PM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Strawman!
There's a place you can go!
I said Strawman!
When you're short of a soul!
You can pray there, and praise the big guy!
Its fun to kneel at the INRI!
Its fun to kneel at the INRI!

I hate to spoil your rather fine joke, but there's a pretty decent Lou Reed song of that title, isn't there?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to mnottertail)

Profile

Post #: 1059

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/29/2010 1:03:10 PM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

Would you mind terribly not including your words in a quote attributed to me. I get that your trying to do your response in red which is a bit of a pain in the ass to respond to but would still be fine if you weren't messing up and responding to me in black as well. This for instance this comes off as being attributed to me and that's not cool.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
a·the·ist http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist
–noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Also I asked why people felt it was ok to tell me my position in the original post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
When an atheist explains his position around here there are a number of people who explain to said atheist that isn't in fact their position and presume to attribute a different position to said atheist. How do you people consider that to be remotely reasonable? It certainly wouldn't be for any other group. For instance it would be ridiculous for me to say to a Christian no, no, no that's not your position; you believe that:

*The earth is flat and sits immovable upon pillars. Isaiah 40:22 KJV, 1 Samuel 2:8 KJV, Psalm 93:1 KJV
*Unicorns are real. Job 39:9-12 KJV
*You need to murder everyone in town and their livestock if a single person in the town isn't Christian. Deuteronomy 13:13-19 KJV

How does doing this to an atheist make it any different?