RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 11:03:49 PM

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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

Treasure, why do you always resort to personal attacks and nastiness when you are losing a debate?

You are welcome any time to make a reasonably sound and logically unflawed argument defending your faith. You've never done it in years of posting here. Rather than attack me for pointing it out, why don't you prove me wrong?

BTW, nobody, including me, is telling you you can't have Faith. But admit that it is just that - Faith - and stop inferring that your beliefs are grounded in science, logic, reason, or evidence. Anyone who comes to these forums and stakes out a position should be able to defend it or get skewered. You know how this works.

eta: changed from "flawed argument" to "unflawed argument"...mea culpa for the lack of clarity

Huh? So if I cant prove to you what you think I neeeed to prove I need to get skewered and I know how this works?

I dont think so. No need to assume skeweridge if I cant spell something out in a way that will influence you one way or another.

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(in reply to brainiacsub)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 12:09:42 AM

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From: San Antonio, TX
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No, you misinterpreted what I said. Anyone who comes out here and stakes out a position which they can't defend with a quality argument, should expect that position to be challenged by anyone else. That's all I meant. It has nothing to do with me personally.

(in reply to heartcream)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 12:18:52 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

No, you misinterpreted what I said. Anyone who comes out here and stakes out a position which they can't defend with a quality argument, should expect that position to be challenged by anyone else.

Hm. And can you prove that?

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(in reply to brainiacsub)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 12:32:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I don't get it as well.

Most Christians would be more than happy to admit that the foundation of their belief system is one that is built on faith.

It really is the essential part of getting to where a Christian hopes to get.

If you don't believe in the story than you ain't got shit.

If only this were true. To whatever degree most Christians are willing to admit their belief system is one of faith is often overshadowed by the need to convince non believers of the parity between faith and reason, especially scientfiic reason. I see it as a desperate tactic to remain relevent among increasingly skeptical younger generations who are rejecting organized religion as scientific discovery becomes more mainstream and accepted as fact.

(in reply to domiguy)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 12:38:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

No, you misinterpreted what I said. Anyone who comes out here and stakes out a position which they can't defend with a quality argument, should expect that position to be challenged by anyone else.

Hm. And can you prove that?

Yes. Go read the Pro Domme vs Lifestyle thread. Lots of skewering and roasting sacred sex workers.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 1:19:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

You are an atheist.
You do not believe in a God.
You have no proof there is no God.
It is something you believe, based on whatever reasons (ie, your logic, your reason, your common sense) that you chose to have faith in.
You have faith that your beliefs are correct.

Can you spot the core logical flaw here? It's rather simple: one cannot, and is under no obligation to prove a negative. If you assert that a thing exists, say little green men from mars or deities, then in a logical argument you must prove that it exists. The presentation of one verifiable example refutes the claim of non-existence.
Belief in the existence of a thing, absent a proof of it's existence is an irrational belief. Failure to believe in something that has no proof of it's existence is entirely logical.

Is it reasonable to believe in a deity? That depends of course on which definition of "reasonable" you choose. If you select "based on logic and reason" then no it is not. St Augustine spent years of effort trying to create a logical proof for the existence of the Christian god and failed miserably. His proof contains a huge jump into illogic assuming that if there is something we cannot understand, it must be god. This leap in "logic"is all to easily disproven. Back when Augustine was writing, people got sick and died. We could not understand why. Skip forward a couple of centuries, and we have modern epidemiology, where we understand the germ theory of disease. Disease wasn't God's will after all, it is caused by nasty things called virii and bacteria. But until we attained more knowledge about the world, it was beyond our reason and understanding, but it wasn't god.

If you select fairness, then in a society that holds that it is fair to allow others their beliefs it is. Is belief in a god or gods logical and reasonable? No. is a belief in a god or gods fair and reasonable. Yes. two different defiintions of reasonable however. Let's not confuse them.

< Message edited by GregoryMK -- 6/20/2010 1:21:31 AM >

(in reply to TreasureKY)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 1:54:37 AM

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Okay seriously this is fucking retarded.

Who the fuck views religion in terms of logical syllogisms? There's no scientific method here unless you know how to experiment on the divine.

Anyone who tries to convince someone else to change their opinion on God in the first place is misguided, but anyone who tries to convince someone else to change their opinion about God by using fucking Aristotelian logic needs to gtfo and go back to grad school where people actually put up with that shit.

Also I've seen enough (presumably) atheists post things here like "this is why religion is bad" or "religion is holding mankind back" and I've actually never seen a post by a theist saying "atheism is ruining mankind" so my only advice is don't start something that you can't finish. If you don't like religion, ignore it. If you pick a fight with it, expect it to fight back.

(in reply to GregoryMK)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 2:29:29 AM

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Maybe that's because athiesm isn't ruining mankind, but religion is incredibly stupid?

(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 2:41:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

So I'll just say you've completely made a straw man of my position, I guess good job being on topic?

You could say that...alternatively you could continue the conversation...

To recap....

1) I stated: "government is based on reason.....the social contract is based on reason......religion is based on reason".....none of these are scientifically verifiable.

2) You followed by claiming: "religious belief can't possibly be rational because there is no logic underpining such belief" (which by the way would suggest you believe government is irrational because no scientific logic underpins the establishment of the state).

3) I responded by saying: "rational self interest is the issue here....not scientific observation".

And that's where we are.......with you seemingly swerving the issue of rational self interest at this point.....and in the absence of any response from you the conclusion to be drawn is this: at this point you're struggling to support your claim that religious belief is irrational.

See....the mistake you make here is believing that human beings are these people wandering around informed only by observation and experience in their quest for knowledge....which isn't the case at all.....we have vision...imagination....leading to music...art...poetry.......we have instinct....and behave in line with custom and habit. It seems to me you're taking one part of human behaviour and claiming that it is the essence of human existence....while ignoring the experience of what we actually do and how we actually behave.....which of course appears to be irrational on your part i.e. how you'd like the world to be at the expense of how the world actually is.

In short...if you can't see that religious belief has played a crucial role in the development of human ideas...and you can't see that religious belief is in one's self-interest (dependent upon the individual and what they deem to be their interest)....then you'll never get very far in your atheism v religious belief discussions.....and will be rendered unable to contribute to a discussion around the role of religion in the modern society....which must be a far more entertaining discussion than "why I am getting 'strawmanned'"?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 2:46:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

Maybe that's because athiesm isn't ruining mankind, but religion is incredibly stupid?

syllogism or it didn't happen

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 3:04:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GregoryMK

St Augustine spent years of effort trying to create a logical proof for the existence of the Christian god and failed miserably.

Which in itself doesn't offer proof that a god does not exist.

Anyway...surely science is based on probabilities and as such a scientist would be agnostic as opposed to atheist.

And I wonder what the probabilities are for the scientific explanation for the world's origins....I imagine this explanation would require a considerable leap in 'faith'.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to GregoryMK)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 3:41:34 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GregoryMK
Can you spot the core logical flaw here? It's rather simple: one cannot, and is under no obligation to prove a negative.

I cannot prove that I have no wart on my nose. There must be a negative in there somewhere, not so? (Musicmystery will know.) So I do not have to prove that I cannot prove that I have no wart on my nose, not so?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GregoryMK
If you assert that a thing exists, say little green men from mars or deities, then in a logical argument you must prove that it exists.

Why? I have seen a huge spaceship. Why must I prove that it existed? How?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GregoryMK
Belief in the existence of a thing, absent a proof of it's existence is an irrational belief.

Hey! I have seen that spaceship - and now you call me irrational? You may be right philosophically, but credible you aint.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GregoryMK
Failure to believe in something that has no proof of it's existence is entirely logical.

Please prove that you exist.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GregoryMK
Is it reasonable to believe in a deity? That depends of course on which definition of "reasonable" you choose.

Um, I rather think it depends on how the diety is defined. Way back in some nearly forgotten thread I defined my pillow as being God. I assure you that my pillow exists. If you won't believe that my pillow exists, you may be reasonable, but you would also be wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GregoryMK
If you select "based on logic and reason" then no it is not.

But I saw that spaceship and per my definition my pillow is God.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GregoryMK
St Augustine spent years of effort trying to create a logical proof for the existence of the Christian god and failed miserably. His proof contains a huge jump into illogic assuming that if there is something we cannot understand, it must be god.

I suspect that to be a negative in some way. Musicmystery? If it is a negative, you cannot use that as an argument.

Anyway, he didn't have my pillow.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GregoryMK
This leap in "logic"is all to easily disproven. Back when Augustine was writing, people got sick and died. We could not understand why. Skip forward a couple of centuries, and we have modern epidemiology, where we understand the germ theory of disease. Disease wasn't God's will after all, it is caused by nasty things called virii and bacteria. But until we attained more knowledge about the world, it was beyond our reason and understanding, but it wasn't god.

Muwhahahaha! That shows the limits of logic and reason; um, of your logic and reason.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GregoryMK
If you select fairness, then in a society that holds that it is fair to allow others their beliefs it is.

I am a bit dull. I have failed to comprehend what you are saying here. If it is fair to allow others their beliefs, then it is fair? Truly?

Allow? Rather dictatorial, isn't it? And they ought to be grateful to be allowed, of course.

Allow me to troll a bit, while I tongue in cheek: All men with a circumcised penis ought to be castrated. It will improve the genepool. (I am serious about the improving; I am not serious about the castrating - them poor bastards do not need any further genital mutilation.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GregoryMK
Is belief in a god or gods logical and reasonable? No. is a belief in a god or gods fair and reasonable. Yes. two different definitions of reasonable however. Let's not confuse them.

I am thoroughly confused. I have got a book here somewhere with the proceedings of a court in Greece where Apollo and Athena were in attendance. I must try to find it and read it; I have been postponing that for years now.

< Message edited by Rule -- 6/20/2010 4:00:54 AM >

(in reply to GregoryMK)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 5:10:31 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
That's my point, there are some people who just don't seem to understand how ridiculous it is to walk into a discussion and inform atheists what their position is, I'm hoping that turning the exact same statement around will make the issue with what she's doing clear to her.

Has it helped anyone else grasp my point?

The point is ok, but that hasn't stopped you in the past doing the same thing to people who follow a religion on spiritual path - which isn't just a point but irony

The only person who has identified as non religious that I have seen during on of the religion or spiritual debates on these forums not doing the above is Vinnie.

But then he's a cutie.

Like marie and Musicmystry stated on the very first pages - why do people strawman anything? It's not just the athiests domain and bugbare.

More Irony... this is supposed to be about strawmanning athiests and what happens?...

quote:

THis is people with strong religious convictions the OP's talking about, for crying out loud! Strawman arguments is all that they've got in this case.

quote:

I'm with you, OP.
When I'm dissed, I remember that on average, people with religion tend to have lower IQ's,

And that was just on the first two pages...

the.dark.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 6:22:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
What I did say to brainiacsub that prompted this thread was:

Actually, right here is where you prompted the thread:

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
Wrong again.

The very definition of atheist is:

(in reply to TreasureKY)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 6:43:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I personally am going to change the name of Sons of Norway to Sons o Bitches, raise the entrance rates and let all the Catholics join.

Odin the One-eyed god of war and confusion.

You betcha, don'tcha know.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 6:47:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
However, I'll disengage my emotions, and ask you to state your position clearly and concisely, and we can discuss it.

It's my position that faith isn't a valid way of obtaining actual knowledge.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 8:24:40 AM

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~FR~

Take this out of the various "circled wagons" camps. Set aside religion/god/faith for a moment.

Are there ways of knowing other than the thought process?

I would have to argue yes. Strongly yes, in fact.

But I wouldn't call it "faith," and that middle area is where the circled wagons get stuck in the mud.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:01:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Are there ways of knowing other than the thought process?

I would have to argue yes. Strongly yes, in fact.

Go on?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:06:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
However, I'll disengage my emotions, and ask you to state your position clearly and concisely, and we can discuss it.

It's my position that faith isn't a valid way of obtaining actual knowledge.

hmmm, well, I think that we are back to the beginning.

Do you believe that the sun is made up of nuclear explosions? How do you "know" this? You have personally conducted experiments, and traveled to the sun to confirm this?

No, of course not. You rely upon an edifice of previous theory and experimental work of other people.

You have faith that they are using a good method, and you have faith that their conclusions are accurate.

Was George Washington the first President of the United States? How do you know this? Because you read it in a history book?

Did you know GW personally? Were you around when he was first elected?

No, of course not. You have faith in the accuracy of the evidence, which consists of other people's observations and words.

Should I go on?

Firm

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/20/2010 9:16:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Okay seriously this is fucking retarded.

Also I've seen enough (presumably) atheists post things here like "this is why religion is bad" or "religion is holding mankind back" and I've actually never seen a post by a theist saying "atheism is ruining mankind" so my only advice is don't start something that you can't finish. If you don't like religion, ignore it. If you pick a fight with it, expect it to fight back.

I tend to agree that most of your posts do have something seriously to be desired...I probably wouldn't call them retarded.

You often make little sense...Do you ever think these things out before you post them?

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