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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 6:07:30 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
atheists state there is no god.

theists state there is no evolution.


Frickin' absolutists

Agreed.

Without the smiley, though.

Firm

PS.  Good posts, NG


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 6:12:51 PM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
atheists state there is no god.

theists state there is no evolution.


Let's throw a wrench into this little party...

Are both the following statements true?

Some atheists state there is a god.

Some theists state there is evolution.

Now what was that about absolutists? 

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 6:12:56 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

When an atheist explains his position around here there are a number of people who explain to said atheist that isn't in fact their position and presume to attribute a different position to said atheist. How do you people consider that to be remotely reasonable? It certainly wouldn't be for any other group. For instance it would be ridiculous for me to say to a Christian no, no, no that's not your position; you believe that:

*The earth is flat and sits immovable upon pillars. Isaiah 40:22 KJV, 1 Samuel 2:8 KJV, Psalm 93:1 KJV
*Unicorns are real. Job 39:9-12 KJV
*You need to murder everyone in town and their livestock if a single person in the town isn't Christian. Deuteronomy 13:13-19 KJV

How does doing this to an atheist make it any different?

Your failure to understand an intellectual position doesn't mean that you are correct, nor does it mean that someone is "straw manning" the argument.

You have already amply demonstrated that you have a vested interest in a certain position and belief, and are extremely hostile and touchy to anything that challenges that belief.

Why should anyone be interested in attempting to discuss it with you rationally?  You claim that rationality is solely the providence of your position, and discount anything that shows you as lacking a full understanding as automatically irrational.

I think the "straw manning" is on the other foot, truthfully.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 6/19/2010 6:34:47 PM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 6:31:14 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
It would seem to me that the quest for knowledge through observation and the need for comfort through the idea of salvation....is part and parcel of our existence....'our' being the human species.

It seems to me that this is completely on topic in the other thread.

As for the rest of your post I don't know how many times in a row it's really useful for me to give a point by point explanation of how you're lying about what I said. So I'll just say you've completely made a straw man of my position,  I guess good job being on topic?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 6:35:05 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Your failure to understand an intellectual position doesn't mean that you are correct, nor does it mean that someone is "straw manning" the argument.

Not THE argument MY argument. He's attributing things to me that I didn't say and don't hold to be true. Can we agree that doing that constitutes a straw man fallacy?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 6:36:37 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Your failure to understand an intellectual position doesn't mean that you are correct, nor does it mean that someone is "straw manning" the argument.

Not THE argument MY argument. He's attributing things to me that I didn't say and don't hold to be true. Can we agree that doing that constitutes a straw man fallacy?

My inclination is to disagree with anything you have to say, at all.

However, I'll disengage my emotions, and ask you to state your position clearly and concisely, and we can discuss it.

Firm


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 6:46:07 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
Let's throw a wrench into this little party...

Are both the following statements true?

Some atheists state there is a god.

Some theists state there is evolution.

Agreed, so doesn't it make more sense to find out whether or not a theist believes in evolution as opposed to just walking up and saying they are wrong because they don't believe in evolution?

Now stick with me, wouldn't it make more sense to treat atheists the same way?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 6:48:08 PM   
DCWoody


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

When an atheist explains his position around here there are a number of people who explain to said atheist that isn't in fact their position and presume to attribute a different position to said atheist. How do you people consider that to be remotely reasonable? It certainly wouldn't be for any other group. For instance it would be ridiculous for me to say to a Christian no, no, no that's not your position; you believe that:

*The earth is flat and sits immovable upon pillars. Isaiah 40:22 KJV, 1 Samuel 2:8 KJV, Psalm 93:1 KJV
*Unicorns are real. Job 39:9-12 KJV
*You need to murder everyone in town and their livestock if a single person in the town isn't Christian. Deuteronomy 13:13-19 KJV

How does doing this to an atheist make it any different?



This really bugs me. Clearly you can't tell someone else what they think, but you can tell a religious person what they should believe.
Christianity, as the example...has been around for a couple of thousand years. The bible's been firmly set as the holy book for a long, time...yet people pick and choose. The entire point of (most) religions is telling you what to do, if you think the majority of christian gospel is wrong....newsflash: you're not a christian. There is no option within christianity to personally decide to not believe in major sections of it, either form your own variant a la protestantism, or obey 'your' religion.
A christian who doesn't believe in christ, a hindu who doesn't believe in reincarnation.....these are contradictions in terms. If you don't believe in reincarnation, you are not hindu, you can call yourself hindu, but that just makes you an idiot....

Usually I just stick with the whole 'there is no god, numbnuts' thing (see pic), but the hypocrisy of so many people who claim to follow x religion, when really they just call themselves that to have a widely used label and follow their own rules...it annoys me. At least fundamentalists make sense:they're just stupid &/or ill educated.





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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 7:04:37 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

This really bugs me. Clearly you can't tell someone else what they think, but you can tell a religious person what they should believe.

Loads of room for mis-understanding, so I'll ask that you clarify before I respond to this sentence.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

Christianity, as the example...has been around for a couple of thousand years. The bible's been firmly set as the holy book for a long, time...yet people pick and choose. The entire point of (most) religions is telling you what to do, if you think the majority of christian gospel is wrong....newsflash: you're not a christian. There is no option within christianity to personally decide to not believe in major sections of it, either form your own variant a la protestantism, or obey 'your' religion.

A christian who doesn't believe in christ, a hindu who doesn't believe in reincarnation.....these are contradictions in terms. If you don't believe in reincarnation, you are not hindu, you can call yourself hindu, but that just makes you an idiot....

Actually, this just means that you don't understand what you are talking about.

"Christianity" is not just the Catholic Church, which seems to be the main "Christianity" that everyone talks about from a historical point.

There are plenty of other "Christian religions", including the Eastern Orthodoxy Church, Coptic Christians and of course an amazing variety of Protestant Christians.

I was married to a Catholic for a long time, but am a Protestant.  Part of most Protestant denominations is the concept of "a personal relationship with God" in which the Bible is to be used for instruction, education and guidance.  Only a few Protestants (either as denominations or individually) actually believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of god, with no errors and that by simply reading once you gain some kind of perfect understanding.

I further find it quite funny and telling when people (particularly atheist) start quoting the Old Testament to show how repugnant that Christianity is, when the founder of Christianity specifically excludes the Old Testament laws and proscriptions as part of the current belief structure of Christianity.  It simply shows amazing ignorance, while they are claiming advanced understanding.

One of the most appealing parts of Christianity is the allowable diversity of beliefs.  There are indeed certain limits, but they aren't usually what the "anti-Christians" state, which generally just shows how they have an underlying hatred of a specific denomination or in which their personal history has lead them to abhor, but which just shows their ignorance, and their emotional (versus the rationality that they claim) basis for their denunciations.

They then use those denunciations and beliefs to condemn all people of faith.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

Usually I just stick with the whole 'there is no god, numbnuts' thing (see pic), but the hypocrisy of so many people who claim to follow x religion, when really they just call themselves that to have a widely used label and follow their own rules...it annoys me. At least fundamentalists make sense:they're just stupid &/or ill educated.

Case in point.

Firm


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 7:25:30 PM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Agreed, so doesn't it make more sense to find out whether or not a theist believes in evolution as opposed to just walking up and saying they are wrong because they don't believe in evolution?

Now stick with me, wouldn't it make more sense to treat atheists the same way?


Sure it would.  But why should I when they refuse to grant the same courtesy?

What I did say to brainiacsub that prompted this thread was:

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

You are an atheist. 
You do not believe in a God. 
You have no proof there is no God. 
It is something you believe, based on whatever reasons (ie, your logic, your reason, your common sense) that you chose to have faith in. 
You have faith that your beliefs are correct.


Not one of those items is untrue.  I was not stating any position that she did not already reveal.  I did not distort her position.  I did not make shit up and say she believed in it.

There was no strawman unless you are claiming any one of those things is untrue or a distortion.

Of course, she may not prefer to put her position in those words.  In fact, I'm fairly certain she would like that we all agree with Butch Bailey's position that atheism requires no active belief... whatever the heck an active belief is.  I suppose it's supposed to be the opposite of an inactive belief, but that is a total loss on me.

At any rate, I did not attribute any position to her for the purpose of prompting her to defend it, nor to argue against it. 

It was, in fact, in response to her having said:

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

Atheism - by definition, absence of belief - does not require faith. It requires logic and reason, and common sense.


I was merely pointing out to her that her definition was incomplete and not quite accurate in her claim that it requires no faith.  Atheism is an absence of belief in a deity or deities, and she does have faith in her logic, reason and common sense that leads her to being an atheist.

So.... are you suggesting that we make sure an atheist doesn't believe in a god?

< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 6/19/2010 7:31:46 PM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 7:52:07 PM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		When I say you can tell them what they should believe, I mean that (most) religions have a widely known set of beliefs, texts, etc....and these are not optional.

Most of the rest of your post...I am aware of different versions, if ya didn't notice, I specifically mentioned protestants....and I specifically used 'doesn't believe in christ' as something that'd apply to every major variation.

I'll try to rephrase my point.

The majority of religions have a belief system....in fact they ARE a belief system, set in stone, written down, often a wide number of firm rules. And they're not kept secret (mostly, scientology special case ofc)...therefore when someone tells you they're a member of a certain religion, it is possible to say what that should mean, what that religion IS. It's not a strawman to say 'christians believe in christ', it's something built into the defintion of 'christians'. Someone claiming to follow a certain religion should actually follow that religion.....almost by definition, religion is proscriptive, individuals do not get to pick and choose which parts of a religion they follow if they are truly a believer of that religion. If somebody is selectively ignoring (not in the 'I have sinned' sense, but in the 'I'm gonnapretend that part isn't true' sense) parts of their chosen religion, they are not following that religion properly, they're merely hiding behind the label.



Re the last part, like I said, I use the nonsensical claim of god to 'condemn' religious people. The cartoon isn't exactly my opinion, but it's close enough to get the point across.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 8:08:40 PM   
brainiacsub


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Status: offline 		Treasure, again you are wrong. Atheism is not about faith. You are misusing the word faith in order to make an argument that theism is just as valid as atheism, or the contrary that atheism contains the same logical flaws as theism. In previous threads you've also tried to claim that atheism was a religion. You just don't know what you are talking about.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 8:17:35 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

I was merely pointing out to her that her definition was incomplete and not quite accurate in her claim that it requires no faith. Atheism is an absence of belief in a deity or deities, and she does have faith in her logic, reason and common sense that leads her to being an atheist.


Sticking my two cents in tho coming late to the party. The problem I have with your comment is that you are playing fast and loose with two significantly different definitions of the word. To have faith in her logic is not the same as to have Faith.

To have faith in her logic suggests she has a reasonable acceptance of its probability after examining evidence and argument.

But to have Faith in religious doctrine suggests that you are using a way of knowing that has diverged from and/or even rejected Reason. To be in Faith you have a knowledge that comes from external or personal revelation/experience despite the unreasonableness of your conclusion.

The atheist has faith in the reasonableness of his conclusion. Two very different uses of the word. Knowingly or not, you are conflating the two meanings for rhetorical purposes. A bit of sophism in your argument.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 8:36:36 PM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I was merely pointing out to her that her definition was incomplete and not quite accurate in her claim that it requires no faith. Atheism is an absence of belief in a deity or deities, and she does have faith in her logic, reason and common sense that leads her to being an atheist.


Sticking my two cents in tho coming late to the party. The problem I have with your comment is that you are playing fast and loose with two significantly different definitions of the word. To have faith in her logic is not the same as to have Faith.

To have faith in her logic suggests she has a reasonable acceptance of its probability after examining evidence and argument.

But to have Faith in religious doctrine suggests that you are using a way of knowing that has diverged from and/or even rejected Reason. To be in Faith you have a knowledge that comes from external or personal revelation/experience despite the unreasonableness of your conclusion.

The atheist has faith in the reasonableness of his conclusion. Two very different uses of the word. Knowingly or not, you are conflating the two meanings for rhetorical purposes. A bit of sophism in your argument.


And who ever said I was talking about Faith and not faith to begin with?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 8:48:41 PM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

Treasure, again you are wrong. Atheism is not about faith. You are misusing the word faith in order to make an argument that theism is just as valid as atheism, or the contrary that atheism contains the same logical flaws as theism. In previous threads you've also tried to claim that atheism was a religion. You just don't know what you are talking about.


And your pious attitude is becoming very tiresome.  You'd like others to respect and understand your position, but you are condescending and demeaning towards others.

Just because you BELIEVE that your position is the only one that comes from logic, reason and common sense, that does not mean that any other position must not use logic, reason and common sense.  Your constant implications are boorish.

Just because you BELIEVE theism is invalid, just because you BELIEVE that theists use flawed logic, that doesn't make it so.

To be honest, you may claim the label of atheist, but your words and attitude also scream bigot.

And I believe I gave you several definitions of "faith" in my previous post to help you understand how I was using it.  I can't help if you ignored the scope of the word and focused on simply one use.  That's your own limitation.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 8:51:31 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I was merely pointing out to her that her definition was incomplete and not quite accurate in her claim that it requires no faith. Atheism is an absence of belief in a deity or deities, and she does have faith in her logic, reason and common sense that leads her to being an atheist.


Sticking my two cents in tho coming late to the party. The problem I have with your comment is that you are playing fast and loose with two significantly different definitions of the word. To have faith in her logic is not the same as to have Faith.

To have faith in her logic suggests she has a reasonable acceptance of its probability after examining evidence and argument.

But to have Faith in religious doctrine suggests that you are using a way of knowing that has diverged from and/or even rejected Reason. To be in Faith you have a knowledge that comes from external or personal revelation/experience despite the unreasonableness of your conclusion.

The atheist has faith in the reasonableness of his conclusion. Two very different uses of the word. Knowingly or not, you are conflating the two meanings for rhetorical purposes. A bit of sophism in your argument.


And who ever said I was talking about Faith and not faith to begin with?


Why is it that no matter how utterly and completely wrong you and Firm are (and you are colossally wrong here) you two always retreat to semantics? It is tiresome and ridiculous.

We all know what kind of faith you meant. That's why you felt the need to italicize the word.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 9:57:47 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
atheists state there is no god.

theists state there is no evolution.


Let's throw a wrench into this little party...

Are both the following statements true?

Some atheists state there is a god.

Some theists state there is evolution.

Now what was that about absolutists? 



Thank you Treasure. At least you got my point.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 9:59:50 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
Nope some do. And some athiests do not accept evolution either.

That's my point, there are some people who just don't seem to understand how ridiculous it is to walk into a discussion and inform atheists what their position is, I'm hoping that turning the exact same statement around will make the issue with what she's doing clear to her.

Has it helped anyone else grasp my point?



And you just made my point perfectly. Thank you.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 10:04:39 PM   
brainiacsub


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From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		Treasure, why do you always resort to personal attacks and nastiness when you are losing a debate?

You are welcome any time to make a reasonably sound and logically unflawed argument defending your faith. You've never done it in years of posting here. Rather than attack me for pointing it out, why don't you prove me wrong?

BTW, nobody, including me, is telling you you can't have Faith. But admit that it is just that - Faith - and stop inferring that your beliefs are grounded in science, logic, reason, or evidence. Anyone who comes to these forums and stakes out a position should be able to defend it or get skewered. You know how this works.

eta: changed from "flawed argument" to "unflawed argument"...mea culpa for the lack of clarity

< Message edited by brainiacsub -- 6/19/2010 10:38:58 PM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 10:35:02 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
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Status: offline 		I don't get it as well.

Most Christians would be more than happy to admit that the foundation of their belief system is one that is built on faith.

It really is the essential part of getting to where a Christian hopes to get.

If you don't believe in the story than you ain't got shit.

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