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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 2:55:04 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
For anyone interested:
Definition/Examples of Strawman

I have consulted Wiki Wiki Wild Wild Pedia about the origin but I'm not really understanding how a man outside a courthouse with straw in his shoe is indicating his willingness to bear false witness?

Unless he is asked if he has straw in his shoe in regards to some case involving the pilfering of straw.


Now you know why I choose to link to a better source!



By the way, speaking of the thread title....why do people think it's OK to verb nouns?


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 5:55:57 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

When an atheist explains his position around here there are a number of people who explain to said atheist that isn't in fact their position and presume to attribute a different position to said atheist. How do you people consider that to be remotely reasonable? It certainly wouldn't be for any other group. For instance it would be ridiculous for me to say to a Christian no, no, no that's not your position; you believe that:

*The earth is flat and sits immovable upon pillars. Isaiah 40:22 KJV, 1 Samuel 2:8 KJV, Psalm 93:1 KJV
*Unicorns are real. Job 39:9-12 KJV
*You need to murder everyone in town and their livestock if a single person in the town isn't Christian. Deuteronomy 13:13-19 KJV

How does doing this to an atheist make it any different?



From what I saw on the last religion focused thread......you were the poster who refused to accept that religious belief is an entirely reasonable proposition. You failed to understand that what is reasonable for you isn't necessarily reasonable for someone else....and when I pointed out that religion can be a comforting and stabilising influence.....you proceeded to claim it was impossible because you personally see no comfort in religion and it follows you concluded that religion was an entirely irrational proposition.

So...I must say GotSteel....you're hardly the voice of reason and parity round here....so...you know.....what goes around comes around.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 6:08:22 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


From what I saw on the last religion focused thread......you were the poster who refused to accept that religious belief is an entirely reasonable proposition. You failed to understand that what is reasonable for you isn't necessarily reasonable for someone else....and when I pointed out that religion can be a comforting and stabilising influence.....you proceeded to claim it was impossible because you personally see no comfort in religion and it follows you concluded that religion was an entirely irrational proposition.

So...I must say GotSteel....you're hardly the voice of reason and parity round here....so...you know.....what goes around comes around.


Yes, religion is a stabilizing and comforting influence.

Personally, I would love to believe that there is a benevolent being looking out for my welfare.

What you fail to understand is that some of us cannot accept that just by being told we need to have faith.






< Message edited by rulemylife -- 6/18/2010 6:12:22 PM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 6:17:06 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery



By the way, speaking of the thread title....why do people think it's OK to verb nouns?




Dont know..why dont you Google it

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 6:24:55 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


From what I saw on the last religion focused thread......you were the poster who refused to accept that religious belief is an entirely reasonable proposition. You failed to understand that what is reasonable for you isn't necessarily reasonable for someone else....and when I pointed out that religion can be a comforting and stabilising influence.....you proceeded to claim it was impossible because you personally see no comfort in religion and it follows you concluded that religion was an entirely irrational proposition.

So...I must say GotSteel....you're hardly the voice of reason and parity round here....so...you know.....what goes around comes around.


Yes religion is a stabilizing and comforting influence.

Personally, I would love to believe that there is a benevolent being looking out for my welfare.

What you fail to understand is that some of us cannot accept that just by being told we need to have faith.



Which of course is a big bag of bobby's bollocks....because I'm a 'seeing is believing' type person and as such would be the first to say that in my view there probably is no god...and it follows that I need more than 'being told' to accept the existence of a god. It's fair to say then that I understand your position highlighted above.

But then the existence of a god was never a concern for the OP on that thread.....and the thread degenerated into one popular misconception....that being that only science is concerned with reason. Which of course is patently nonsense.....the social contract is based on reason......government by the people is based on reason. There are no scientific grounds for this....just a view of the benefits derived by human beings.....in a similar vein to the benefits derived (for some people) through the belief in the existence of a god.

So....RuleMyLife....when it comes to struggling to understand in the context of that particular thread...I thought the atheist contingent were struggling for flexibility....which comes back to my comment about what goes around comes around.....how on earth do you expect a fair crack of the whip when you can't afford it to others?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 7:01:55 PM   
xBullx


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Status: offline 		Hmmmmm...

Curious........

Interesting....

Why would Strawmen consider Atheist, people? Or people Atheists?

Do Strawmen take Straw Polls or piss with them?

Do Strawmen believe that it is wheat or oats that is the feed upon which one should nourish their soul?

If Strawmen were to go to hell would their sins go up in smoke or would their souls be thrashed?

A Jew, an Atheist, a Muslim and a Christian walk into a barn filled with straw........................

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 7:38:09 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
By the way, speaking of the thread title....why do people think it's OK to verb nouns?









Attachment (1)

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 8:02:28 PM   
Musicmystery


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 8:13:12 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
From what I saw on the last religion focused thread......you were the poster who refused to accept that religious belief is an entirely reasonable proposition.

I seem to recall responding to you with one post about how having an emotional affinity for a position doesn't make that position rational (yes you actually used the word rational to describe choosing a position based on emotion). I also seem to recall you not having a response to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
you proceeded to claim it was impossible because you personally see no comfort in religion and it follows you concluded that religion was an entirely irrational proposition.

That's not how I remember things, let me refresh your memory. You claimed that religion was "essential" to human existence and I pointed out that this couldn't be true because half the humans in my state exist just fine without religion. Here let me quote it so there's no confusion:

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
religion is an essential component in human existence

You're wrong. Considering that about half my state gets by just fine without it, you may want to look up the definition of essential.





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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 3:48:22 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I seem to recall responding to you with one post about how having an emotional affinity for a position doesn't make that position rational (yes you actually used the word rational to describe choosing a position based on emotion). I also seem to recall you not having a response to me.



I see. Seems you believe rational behaviour concerns only scientific analysis and observation. Have you considered that rationality concerns acting in one's own best interests too? and that the belief in salvation is in one's interests where's there's a need for this belief?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

you proceeded to claim it was impossible because you personally see no comfort in religion and it follows you concluded that religion was an entirely irrational proposition.

That's not how I remember things, let me refresh your memory. You claimed that religion was "essential" to human existence and I pointed out that this couldn't be true because half the humans in my state exist just fine without religion. Here let me quote it so there's no confusion:



Yes you did say that....as well as infering that people can find comfort in religion.

In terms of 'it couldn't be true'....

Well.....the equivalent would be saying that many of us do not have an interest in science and it follows that is simply not essential...no matter how it informs our lives. It would seem to me that the quest for knowledge through observation and the need for comfort through the idea of salvation....is part and parcel of our existence....'our' being the human species.

I suppose we could dispute the meaning of essential in this context. We could survive without religion in a way we couldn't survive without food...granted....but religion is a constant in human ideas and evolution...it has always been with us...so in my view religion is essential to the wider human species based on observation. You personally may not need it....but then I wasn't talking about the small details of who believes and who doesn't...rather the broader picture of the human species.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 7:11:42 AM   
tazzygirl


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atheists state there is no god.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 7:37:41 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

~FR

atheists state there is no god.


I'm not sure what that was in reply to, but I've never said I was an atheist.

The way I look at atheism is someone who rejects the possibility.

I guess I might qualify as an agnostic but that really doesn't fit either, because I do think there is ample evidence to suggest there is no God.

I would truly love to believe if someone could provide the slightest evidence, but none exists.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 7:50:19 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

if someone could provide the slightest evidence, but none exists


In fairness, sure it exists--just not conclusively.

But short of "proof of," "evidence in support of" certainly exists, and people of faith can elaborate it for you, from the denial of coincidence at the low end to the intelligent design observation (before the creationists co-opted and mangled it) that stops short of claiming proof in favor of an opinion of "seems likely to me."

And sure, an atheist would say that's pretty slight evidence--but that slight evidence is there, just not the solid proof.

Now---as for this definition of atheist parsing...both of you are trying to describe actively a passive activity (yes, some become activists, but that's a subset, not criterion for the taxonomy). We don't have labels for people who don't believe in fairies, monsters, aliens, etc.; this is confusion only construed when some believers want to debate non-believers, so they first assign a claim to refute, when the truth is atheists are making no claim at all (i.e., not out to proof there is no god--again, not as a group, acknowledging a subset).



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/19/2010 7:51:06 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 2:05:12 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
atheists state there is no god.

theists state there is no evolution.





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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 2:10:52 PM   
luckydawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
By the way, speaking of the thread title....why do people think it's OK to verb nouns?












Oh, now I get it. Verb is a noun that you are using as a verb. So you are doing what you are complaining about, while complaining about it.

Just like got steel is.

Thats pretty funny. Great post!!!!

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 2:12:04 PM   
luckydawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
atheists state there is no god.

theists state there is no evolution.








Nope some do. And some athiests do not accept evolution either.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 4:02:33 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
atheists state there is no god.

theists state there is no evolution.




Frickin' absolutists

the.dark.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 5:09:06 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
Nope some do. And some athiests do not accept evolution either.

That's my point, there are some people who just don't seem to understand how ridiculous it is to walk into a discussion and inform atheists what their position is, I'm hoping that turning the exact same statement around will make the issue with what she's doing clear to her.

Has it helped anyone else grasp my point?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 5:10:27 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


Thnx 4 teh lolz ;D

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/19/2010 5:30:14 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


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Status: offline 		Oh Hell, some people love stawmaning people in their close inter-personal relationships. Should Atheist get special treatment from the rest of humanitity? Friends don't let friends strawman anybody, especially athiest. People won't live up to strawmaning either, because they know it's best to represent the lie, instead of just telling lies. lol

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