RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (Full Version)

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hematitan -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/14/2010 6:11:25 PM)
quote: Men who have fake vaginas made are just men with fake vaginas and the men who go out of their way to get T-girls, in whatever stage of change, are homosexuals, not straight men, because T-girls are not, in any way, part of the feminine gender. Which, that's their business if they want to have fake vaginas or they want to chase after fake vaginas, or whatever. But, I do wish they would stop listing themselves, the T-girls, as women, and, most especially, that the men who will accept T-girls, for whatever purpose, would stop listing themselves as straight as it is a big waste of time for the people who really are straight and who really want to get together with other people who are also straight. Last time I checked, most gay men weren't interested in having sex with people who look like women, identify as women, and have vaginas. Trans women are women. It's a good idea to mention that they're trans, but they are women. Their gender is female, they see themselves as female, and they're attracted to whoever they're attracted to as women, just as surely as someone who is assigned female at birth is. Also, not all trans people are trans women. There are men, too.

LadyPact -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 9:38:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim And so...if we met on the street or shared a meal and you knew I was trans, and was presenting as female. Would you refer to me as he? Would you use my female name instead of my male one? Would you treat me as the gender I was presenting as? Make me feel like I was a whole person? How would you feel as I got up to use the woman's restroom? Would you honor my desire within myself to be authentic, and unmolested by your sense of morality? If the answer is "no" to any of those questions, then I will respectfully say that you need further introspection of these concepts...and failing a positive outcome, you should vote Republican in the next election. [;)] I don't think that was entirely fair, Otters. You know, sometimes, you have to give people a chance to catch up. Knowing that I think the world of you (and your Lady), that I've had a great time meeting the both of you, got to be a part of your world here and away from the screen, are you going to throw those same questions at Me? How about if I add the part that don't always remember the female name that you go by? After calling you "Otters" two thousand times, the other name that I've heard maybe twice hasn't quite stuck yet. Yeah, that's mostly Me being a twit with a bad memory for names, but are you really telling Me that I don't treat you like your authentic self?

OttersSwim -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 10:32:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim And so...if we met on the street or shared a meal and you knew I was trans, and was presenting as female. Would you refer to me as he? Would you use my female name instead of my male one? Would you treat me as the gender I was presenting as? Make me feel like I was a whole person? How would you feel as I got up to use the woman's restroom? Would you honor my desire within myself to be authentic, and unmolested by your sense of morality? If the answer is "no" to any of those questions, then I will respectfully say that you need further introspection of these concepts...and failing a positive outcome, you should vote Republican in the next election. [;)] I don't think that was entirely fair, Otters. You know, sometimes, you have to give people a chance to catch up. Knowing that I think the world of you (and your Lady), that I've had a great time meeting the both of you, got to be a part of your world here and away from the screen, are you going to throw those same questions at Me? How about if I add the part that don't always remember the female name that you go by? After calling you "Otters" two thousand times, the other name that I've heard maybe twice hasn't quite stuck yet. Yeah, that's mostly Me being a twit with a bad memory for names, but are you really telling Me that I don't treat you like your authentic self? LadyP, please note that my post was made in question to JstAnotherSu who stated that in essence, no matter what a transperson does, they would never ever be female. You have to understand how amazingly offending that is to the fast majority trans community. It is a key part of trans-stigma - a refusal to recognize someone for who they present themselves as. I can flood my system with more estrogen than than most bio-women have, grow breasts, gain a female shape, and undergo complex surgeries...and yet, there are those who will flatly refuse to recognize me. That refusal of recognition is part of the platform that social conservatives use to try to pass legislation to block gender marker changes on birth cirtificates and driver's licenses post-op, keep trans folk from using restrooms, etc. It is part of the a huge dilemma that many trans folk face with their families and friends - who will refuse to recognize their authentic self as projected and instead will often insist on calling them by their birth name, referring to them as their birth gender, etc. I am thankful for the more moderate Republicans in the party. So I clearly offended some good Republican kinky folk with my comment and for that I apologize. Don't want to have this disintegrate into a political discussion, so I withdraw my statement about it and ask your pardon. Not my best attempt at being an ambassador for Trans folk. [&o] I am currently going through a period of exploration into the transgender community. I am thinking about starting HRT. I am on several transgender boards and reading about people's lives and the challenges they are facing in coming out and being accepted. I am reading a lot about Cisgender privilege, parents kicking kids out of their home, stating that they would rather that they were dead than be Transgendered, electroshock therapy conducted in religious transgender "Cure Centers", marriages dissolving, children being taken away, people being denied employment, facing eviction from their apartments...and a doubling of the transgender murder rate in two years. I am processing on all of this and my responses here I think reflect that sort of "over the top" heightened sense of fear, and concern that I am feeling about just being -me-. I think this period is something all trans people have to go through. The realization of the challenges of being transgendered, and the decision to not live in fear of harm or repression. It is easier said than done I can tell you. Again, I apologize if my words offended anyone. Peace.

LadyPact -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 10:56:10 AM)
Otters, you know you didn't offend Me. What I'm saying is that, in looking at all of the viewpoints, sometimes, you also have to give people a chance. You have been on this exploration of yourself for a couple of years and have been very open in presenting that. All I'm saying is that people might need to adjust right along with you. I think it makes perfect sense to explore the discussion in various ways. A couple of folks have used the word(s) offend/offensive. Well, if you don't want those of us in the non-trans community to come across that way, don't you feel that we might need a little help or education to not be so? If you don't mind, I'm going to use your case in particular. Often, in your posts, you'll use the term 'girly-boy'. Not an issue. However, it can be somewhat difficult to know how you want to be termed. It's kind of hard on this side of the screen to know if you want to be called him or her. I don't tend to use xhe or hir. (There have been threads in the past that have also called that offensive.) Unless you literally come out and say that you wish to be called one gender or the other, it's kind of hard to know what your preference really is on the subject. This is especially true since you have been known to refer to yourself as a male submissive. When you present as female, you already know from personal experience with Me that is exactly how I'll treat you. What I'm saying is, it isn't always easy to tell from the screen. I realize it's a sensative subject. At the same time, you have to realize that there are some folks who may need more help than others.

SthrnCom4t -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 11:02:49 AM)
Otters and I had this discussion yesterday after I read his initial post. There is a filter/sensitivity around being trans which colors perception. I watch him get caught up in the comments of this board, and then I remind him about the reality of our interactions with people. There are so many variables to this issue, and of course, some people are more invested emotionally than others. I have found that unfamiliarity with an experience let's us presume 'how it would be' if.....X. All sides should be respected for their preferences, even if we don't agree with how they came to that conclusion. We are all on our own evolutionary time line, and we can't control other people's thoughts and reactions. From my personal observations the reactions from strangers viewing Otters has been the following: 1) Confusion - As humans we 'identify' someone with a gender label as part of the 'recognition' process. Sometimes this causes a short-circuit type reaction, which I don't interpret as 'rejection', just confusion. In such cases, the ensuing next step can be a smile, looking away, or turning their grocery cart 180 degrees and walking away. 2) Friendly - especially if Otters is his usual charming self. The androgynous look coupled with a friendly energy engages people and they react to his laughing eyes and open smile. 3) Guarded or Aloof - Again, this is not rejection, but it is cautious. Last week we were on a work duty shift for the retreat we went to. When Otter stepped away, the girl we were working with asked how she should address him (as him or her). She asked because she didn't want to offend, and she stated her previous interaction with a trans person was that the gurl got very upset by being referred to as 'him'. As someone who lives with a trans person, this is not a black/white issue. We are the sum of our experiences, and for the majority of our society it is still a binary logarithm of male vs female. I know Otters as a 'him' because that was how we first interacted. Even when presenting as female, I still refer using the male pronoun. Our society is evolving, and probably some day, we'll have a more accurate set of pronoun options. Our English language has a large gap here, and the substitution usage of the word 'it' is perceived by most as incredibly insulting. I propose that this is not intended to be insulting, but rather for those binary thinkers, it could be a logical conclusion. Just recently I started introducing Otters with his first (boy name) and second name (girl name), not as an or but in the complete. (I have a bio female friend who's name is Michael Ann. There are plenty of names that can be used for either gender, let's just be straight up with this.) For now, he is both, and I want to acknowledge and honor these attributes. Five years from now, things may be different, and we'll re-evaluate. I think that's the other area of confusion....for many, it's a dynamic spectrum. How do those of us not on that trip, know where the trans person is at any given moment in time? There is a fluidity to consider (not the same as but with the same confusing potential) as that of sexual preferences. Much depends on the individuals interacting at the time. As there is more life experience, more confidence, more call to be authentic, the perceived safety of the environment, etc, the self-evolution of trans folk might be moving slowly or quite rapidly. While we are all evolving (hopefully wink) in some, it is more obvious than others. It seems to me that respect is required on all sides. That just like previous minority groups in history there will take much work to bring awareness into the mainstream. Unfortunately that trip can include violence, because it is sadly, human nature to lash out in fear. Transfolk - whether you appreciate it or not, you are ambassadors. People will look at you and form opinions based on how you engage and react. Be smart....when I walk out to my car after dark, I'm aware of my surroundings. A balanced survival instinct does not have to be paranoia. Make a conscious choice not to be a victim or live in fear, but to drive you're own destiny.

sweetlindsey84 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 11:27:56 AM)
it's funny how people with cisgender privilege tell trans people how they are supposed to feel about situations.... lmao the only thing i agree with is that there is a huge degree of confusion with "what kind of trans is this person" the problem is anyone who bends genders even a lil is considered transgendered..... however it seems to me that there is a huge!!! difference between a transvestite and a transsexual..... and sometimes it is soooo hard to tell and EVERYONE... has confusion with people who don't quite look like one gender or another.....even if they are not trans anything it's still confusing.... i understand that... and i have no idea what to do about it..... HOWEVER.... i feel most transsexuals will be more obvious with which gender they are presenting and calling them by their correct gender should be straight forward.... also i think that if a person decides they are transsexual and decides to transition.... former acquaintances who refuse to use proper pronouns are prolly being about as rude as possible..

OttersSwim -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 12:12:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Otters, you know you didn't offend Me. What I'm saying is that, in looking at all of the viewpoints, sometimes, you also have to give people a chance. You have been on this exploration of yourself for a couple of years and have been very open in presenting that. All I'm saying is that people might need to adjust right along with you. I think it makes perfect sense to explore the discussion in various ways. A couple of folks have used the word(s) offend/offensive. Well, if you don't want those of us in the non-trans community to come across that way, don't you feel that we might need a little help or education to not be so? If you don't mind, I'm going to use your case in particular. Often, in your posts, you'll use the term 'girly-boy'. Not an issue. However, it can be somewhat difficult to know how you want to be termed. It's kind of hard on this side of the screen to know if you want to be called him or her. I don't tend to use xhe or hir. (There have been threads in the past that have also called that offensive.) Unless you literally come out and say that you wish to be called one gender or the other, it's kind of hard to know what your preference really is on the subject. This is especially true since you have been known to refer to yourself as a male submissive. When you present as female, you already know from personal experience with Me that is exactly how I'll treat you. What I'm saying is, it isn't always easy to tell from the screen. I realize it's a sensative subject. At the same time, you have to realize that there are some folks who may need more help than others. LadyP, up to today, I was listed here on CM as a male submissive. I have changed that today to transgendered submissive. Evolution. I am a girlie-boy, transgendered, and I do try to not get hung up or offended about how someone will refer to me. But as evolution in my feelings, thinking, and reality change, I am coming face to face with those concepts I discussed of identity and denial of identity. I wanted to highlight how that denial of identity from others can be very very offensive. You are absolutely correct that people need time to adjust, and when they encounter you, they may need some pointers on how to address you. I am still learning how to do this - how to be an ambassador and step out of my shell and say "Hi!" when someone is clearly trying to figure me out. Will they smile or frown? Is there going to be a confrontation, or friendly discussion? I am looking now at going from part-time female presentation to full-time female presentation - taking hormones, etc. Suddenly, all of these issues are being brought right to my front door every time I walk out of it. Having the courage and strength to willingly take that choice away from myself in order to further embrace my authenticity and sense of self, and facing the stigma and risk every day...pretty daunting stuff for me.

sweetlindsey84 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 12:22:27 PM)
it is not a trans persons responsibility to educate cisgenders......

OttersSwim -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 12:30:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84 it is not a trans persons responsibility to educate cisgenders...... I disagree. You don't change society by sitting back and expecting others to do the work for you. As a minority group, we have to teach society how we want to be treated. Transgendered people are in a struggle for civil rights and acceptance in society. This isn't accomplished by sitting back and saying to people, "well, you should just know how to treat me". It would be great if society just embraced those who are different. But human groups do not work that way. History shows that quite distinctly and if you look at those groups of minorities who have experienced some success in society, you will see that every one of them "agitated and educated" for their rights and acceptance.

sweetlindsey84 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 12:34:47 PM)
i agree but it is not your "responsibility" in other words if some one is ignorant..... it is not your fault for not teaching them how not to be..... make sense?

LadyPact -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 12:37:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim LadyP, up to today, I was listed here on CM as a male submissive. I have changed that today to transgendered submissive. Evolution. I am a girlie-boy, transgendered, and I do try to not get hung up or offended about how someone will refer to me. But as evolution in my feelings, thinking, and reality change, I am coming face to face with those concepts I discussed of identity and denial of identity. I wanted to highlight how that denial of identity from others can be very very offensive. You are absolutely correct that people need time to adjust, and when they encounter you, they may need some pointers on how to address you. I am still learning how to do this - how to be an ambassador and step out of my shell and say "Hi!" when someone is clearly trying to figure me out. Will they smile or frown? Is there going to be a confrontation, or friendly discussion? I am looking now at going from part-time female presentation to full-time female presentation - taking hormones, etc. Suddenly, all of these issues are being brought right to my front door every time I walk out of it. Having the courage and strength to willingly take that choice away from myself in order to further embrace my authenticity and sense of self, and facing the stigma and risk every day...pretty daunting stuff for me. I can appreciate that. I don't think we're that far apart in thinking here. I'm just asking that, for all of the new ways of thinking and realizations that you are coming to, you let other people in on the process. Changing the little box from male submissive to trans is something new. Heck, even if you made yourself a whole new profile, people would still have a tendency to have to get that right in their head. Maybe even still call you "Otters" by mistake once in a while. (Please don't. I really do happen to like "Otters".) That's not a gender thing. That's an association thing. Yes, you're going to have folks that refuse to think differently than your personal expression. I'm just asking you to keep in mind that, even though it's sensitive, not all of us might be coming from the same place. Some of us might just slip up once in a while. It doesn't mean that we're not your friend or that we don't accept you as who you are. It means we're human and might make a mistake.

LadyPact -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 12:42:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84 i agree but it is not your "responsibility" in other words if some one is ignorant..... it is not your fault for not teaching them how not to be..... make sense? Ok. You're kidding about this, right? People are just supposed to automatically know when someone is going to want to be called 'her' rather than 'him' at some point in their transition? Sorry, but if I can't see the way someone is presenting themselves, I'm not going to magically know. What Otters said in reply is a perfect example. If I wasn't told that the little box was changed or I hadn't read this thread, I'm supposed to guess that on Saturday, it was one way and Sunday there was a change?

sweetlindsey84 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 12:46:33 PM)
ok miscommunication i think..... what otter has to do is communicate a personal change....... if she tells you she is trans it is not her responsibility to tell you about the process or for you to know everything that she is doing to change her gender,,,,,, understand?

KurtAllen -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 1:58:15 PM)
quote: Really? They deserve to be beaten to death with a fire extinguisher? http://cbs4denver.com/local/zapata.murder.arrest.2.783694.html Really? They deserve to be stabbed to death? http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/crime/transgender-murder-arrest/ Really? They deserve to be decapitated and dismembered? http://www.queeried.com/suspect-in-jorge-steven-mercado-case-now-looks-likely-to-use-homosexual-panic-as-a-defense/ Otter, I would like to share with you a parallel that may shed a new or different light on the transgender in your mind. Please consider my comments as being supportive of your thinking. Of being in agreement with the belief, there are those who target transgender with a focus on extreme violence. In commenting, I do not mean to imply that I am transgender or gay or even bisexual but more that the career path I followed for over 20 years took me to most every nation on this planet and I have far more than case study knowledge of the social engineering that justifies the violence man inflicts on man. In fact, I will write you on the other side, what I have to say is for you .

PeonForHer -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 2:10:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim quote: ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84 it is not a trans persons responsibility to educate cisgenders...... I disagree. You don't change society by sitting back and expecting others to do the work for you. As a minority group, we have to teach society how we want to be treated. Transgendered people are in a struggle for civil rights and acceptance in society. This isn't accomplished by sitting back and saying to people, "well, you should just know how to treat me". It would be great if society just embraced those who are different. But human groups do not work that way. History shows that quite distinctly and if you look at those groups of minorities who have experienced some success in society, you will see that every one of them "agitated and educated" for their rights and acceptance. Good for you. That's the spirit, Otters!

sweetlindsey84 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 2:17:44 PM)
quote: I disagree. You don't change society by sitting back and expecting others to do the work for you. As a minority group, we have to teach society how we want to be treated. Transgendered people are in a struggle for civil rights and acceptance in society. This isn't accomplished by sitting back and saying to people, "well, you should just know how to treat me". It would be great if society just embraced those who are different. But human groups do not work that way. History shows that quite distinctly and if you look at those groups of minorities who have experienced some success in society, you will see that every one of them "agitated and educated" for their rights and acceptance. additionally many transsexuals don't wish to rock the boat and prefer to blend seamlessly into society and lead "normal" lives.... why should those people have to sacrifice for people who don't want to live in a binary gender world? Just because you wish to "teach society" and "struggle for civil rights" the fact is that many transsexuals do not have to do this so why should they?

AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 2:56:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84 it is not a trans persons responsibility to educate cisgenders...... It sure as hell is if they are going to be offended when someone makes an uneducated statement... if they do not educate people... who exactly is going to? QSM

sweetlindsey84 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 2:59:48 PM)
so your saying that when you say something ignorant and hurtful to someone....it's not your fault but theirs because they didn't teach you? wow that is oozing with so much privilege it's sickening

OttersSwim -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 3:29:51 PM)
Human societies are unruly beasts without conscious that advance only by the actions and reactions of the discontent... - Ottersswim We don't have to save the world...but by the process of being different, those that we encounter will form an impression of us. Thereby, we become ambassadors of the state of being known as Transsexual - whether we intend to, want to, or accept it or not. People who encounter us, form impressions and opinions - today, most of those impressions are formed by the media where being trans is a sensational oddity worthy only of scandal, sensationalism, and conflict. Media - another unruly beast without a conscious... But if they can meet me, get to know me as a person, not as an oddity. See my life, my struggles, then it becomes something more than the people who you see on Jerry Springer. There is certainly something to be said to simply wanting to put all this behind you. To blend in and not have to feel or associate with the stigma anymore. In trans culture it is called Stealth. I don't like the term. I can understand wanting to step away from the stigma and just feel normal for a while. Be treated as just the person you are presenting as. It is beyond my current experience. I can certainly see that I would feel such a desire if I were post-op. But I am not certain that it is the best thing to do. It goes back to the concept of trans folk wanting to "pass" and not be identified as someone presenting as a gender...another form of stealth where people mistake you for something you are not. It's not about passing. It is about being yourself - warts and all - and not hiding that from anyone. Hard damn thing to truly embrace...

Jeffff -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 3:34:09 PM)
If I say something unintentionally then yes it is that persons responsibility to correct me. Either that, or walk away. You keep using the word "ignorance". I hope this helps. Main Entry: ig·no·rance Pronunciation: \ˈig-n(ə-)rən(t)s\ Function: noun Date: 13th century : the state or fact of being ignorant : lack of knowledge, education, or awareness

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