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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 1:28:03 AM

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Much of dissent has to do with perspective. One can look at this thread as a flag waving tribute to the US OR one can look at this thread as an opportunity to see the good which other countries provide. The OP left things very open ended. There are many, many countries which have provided great things to the world which have benefited all of mankind, the US included. Pick something, present your belief as to some of the great things that 'any' country has done and this can be a very positive thread rather than a very negative thread. Greatest human achievement of all time.. language, did not originate in the US. The wheel.. did not originate in the US, that was courtesy of the Summerians.

Negative or positive, each makes his own choice.

Yes, yes.. I'm an idealist and a bit of a dreamer.. but hope springs eternal.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 1:32:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fullofgrace

i think, for excellence, we need only compare ourselves to ourselves. have we done well, compared to other countries? perhaps. but looking at the state of the united states? we could do better. doesn't mean we're wrong, doesn't mean we're bad, just means we can always improve.

i don't like these types of threads because they always smack of politics. i love the country of the us, but i hate politics, i'm not real fond of the government, and i think a lot of things could be changed. and i'm tired of being told that i shouldn't push for those changes because, well, "we're better than everybody else." i don't care. even if we ARE better than everybody else (which i don't really believe) that doesn't make us spectacularly wonderful and it doesn't mean that we don't have problems that we CAN and AREN'T fixing.

i don't know. i just find this game rather childish, personally.

I agree to a large extent, my only point is the US gets bashed constantly on global level, why when a couple positive US threads pop up, people get offended and want to leave. Oh well, I think the US is the best place on the planet. If that offends anyone, well, I think maybe we are being a bit sensitive.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 4:56:17 AM

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You still haven't got what I was saying about people leaving so just forget it... Others know precisely what I was refering to..... I never said BTW that I was leaving I said that I was reducing my time here in the forums. however I will probably still post as much to the Gorean forum for the time being anyway......

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 5:37:07 AM

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The "right" country for a person can vary as much as the "right" dominant or submissive, and be even harder to find. I happen to find the United States a pretty good fit for my needs and desires (familiar term, wot?) despite its political wobblings.

This certainly isn't true for everyone. When Aleksandr Isaevich Solzhenitsyn came to the US, he quickly discovered he hated it. There was too much uncontrolled freedom. Some of the 9/11 terrorists spend significant time in the US and certainly didn't come to love the place.

A significant number of non-economic immigrants (ones who don't come because they need a job here.) eventually move back to their own country or on to another.

"Best Place"? Like beauty that's in the eye of the beholder.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 6:20:22 AM

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...countries that have done more for the world than the US? Entirely a question of how to define value to the world. It has been mentioned that the Holy See, as a country, as done much. i'd argue that Catholiocism's insistence of opposing the use of condoms has been a death sentence for many in Africa, and pretty much obviates any good stuff that that church has done for people. Failing to protect jews in world war 2 was another rather shameful episode. However this is not about catholic-bashing. My point is that we are a pluralistic world, for some the US is a knight in shining armour, for others the great Satan....and the thing is, they're both right.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 8:02:14 AM

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The only country putting America to shame is America. Democracy and freedom supported by that dirty word, capitalism, are unique here. There is no nationalized industry, no national bank, also unique. We put it to shame when we try to apply our success to countries without that unique foundation. A democratic republic is an advanced political concept. It takes confidence to put it in place, it take luck to have a man such as George Washington subscribe to the concept and walk away from an offer of absolute power, it takes a dedicated effort to continue to make it work.

We are shamed when we lose that confidence. As stated, it is similar to seeking the right "one" in the lifestyle. Without confidence in yourself you can't succeed. If you find someone without confidence you are doomed when your relationship incurs it's first challenge. Just as you can't export democracy, you can't force confidence or export it. It's not that the Iraq regime can't be self sufficient. It's that the Iraq regime lacks the confidence to allow and face rhetoric and debate from the minority side.

Our internal shame is coming from the same creeping confidence leak. Consequences of trying to reduce free access to information, cracking down on "'pornography", speech are symptoms of that leak. Because other countries lack our foundation and our success they don't have the ability to shame us.

Without a long digression, the "Holy See" is a hypocrisy. They don't represent freedom or equality. A woman in the catholic church is and always will be a second class citizen. They are more money oriented than any US corporation. They are Muslim fundamentalist, without the old school inquisition tools, in their missionary work in third world countries outside the light of news.

No country puts the US to shame. Only we have the ability and opportunity to do that.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 9:07:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
Guess I'll be moving to either Canada or Southern Ireland...

Let me know when you get here. I'll be glad to show you and Neets around

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 9:11:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsIncognito

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
Guess I'll be moving to either Canada or Southern Ireland...

Let me know when you get here. I'll be glad to show you and Neets around

Y'know Lass, even if we just visit, I'll do just that...Thank you .

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 9:23:26 AM

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I agree with Merc.

Except there is a Federal Reserve.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 9:35:23 AM

Arpig

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Great Britain, for the basically single-handed abolition of the international slave trade. This was a unique action, based on nothing but a sense of moral outrage. It benefitted Great Britatin not at all (after all she controlled the bulk of the world's supply of potential slaves), and in fact caused serious economic disruptions in many of her colonies. Never before or since has a great power taken a similar unilateral action, to state once and for all "We don't care about your rights as a sovereign nation, what you are doing is Wrong, and we mean to prevent you or anybody else from doing it, and we will spare no expense, and use every resource at our disposal to do so."
They spent huge sums doing this, and they used their fleet and army to enforce their ban on trafficing in human beings

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 9:43:59 AM

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quote:

Your the first person that mentioned the whole US site and non-US site thing, that I've seen. All I have to say on the topic is come over here and live, then watch, as the french, germans, canadians, etc.... all criticize the US constantly.

ok listen up fella........as a Canadian girl does NOT knock the states, and anyone who does is no friend of hers as she has lived in the states.

hell girl would rather live there than here and is sad to see you THINK all Canadians knock the US, well NOT all of us do. you wanna lump all Canadians into one category then by all means girl could do the same with Doms but she doesn't cause she knows NOT all Doms are the same.

get off Your high horse and quit accusing all of Canada of putting down the states.......

GIRL DOES NOT PUT THE STATES DOWN NOR WILL SHE TOLERATE ANYONE WHO DOES.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 10:38:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cariad

quote:

Your the first person that mentioned the whole US site and non-US site thing, that I've seen. All I have to say on the topic is come over here and live, then watch, as the french, germans, canadians, etc.... all criticize the US constantly.

ok listen up fella........as a Canadian girl does NOT knock the states, and anyone who does is no friend of hers as she has lived in the states.

hell girl would rather live there than here and is sad to see you THINK all Canadians knock the US, well NOT all of us do. you wanna lump all Canadians into one category then by all means girl could do the same with Doms but she doesn't cause she knows NOT all Doms are the same.

get off Your high horse and quit accusing all of Canada of putting down the states.......

GIRL DOES NOT PUT THE STATES DOWN NOR WILL SHE TOLERATE ANYONE WHO DOES.

I thought it would be understood, I didn't mean every single canadian, but those generally represented in the press.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 10:43:46 AM

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France puts us to shame because they are more inept at the art and science of war than we are.

Next to last is not a position I admire.

LOL,
Ron

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 2:16:42 PM

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Apparently you and I think alike, Bita. I was just about to post the exact same thing about Vatican City when I read your post.

I'm leaving out the religious connotations, though, Delight Machine. I used to be Catholic. Not real thrilled with it. However, as far as helping the sick and poor, they have done so (recently) in a nonviolent and extremely beneficial manner, moreso than the US, or any other nation.

On a side note, I love living in the US. I'll be the first to admit that there's a lot I don't agree with, but I enjoy the freedoms I do have. I think we've done a hell of a lot of bad that tempers the good we do, but I won't deny that we do some good.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 3:03:57 PM

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Here are some stats for what becomes shameful in later years in terms of performance/outcome:
Child care: http://zfacts.com/p/717.htmlquote:

Historically, the UK has had the least developed child care system in Europe. Like the U.S. it has a sizable minority who distrust their government. Care for children was left to individual families, but this put undue pressure on many mothers as they needed to enter the labour market to support their families.

http://zfacts.com/p/712.html.

quote:

http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/finlanddiary/2005/05/a_young_philoso.html.
Q. Finnish women seem to be more fully liberated than even American women, or any others. Even the elected president of Finland is a woman. Why?
A. The main idea is equal opportunities: women don't have to choose between having children and work. Society should make this possible, which it does through a universal right to cheap child care run by college-level educated people. The long maternal leaves plus the child care available to everyone as a right usually surprises my many foreign friends. But it's good to notice that it's not only women who have accomplished this. Finnish men have supported this. They are strong enough to have strong women as their partners.
In Finland, the link between the quality of education and poverty was realized quite early. In the late 19th century Finland was a very poor country with very little education. And it was poor precisely because of the lack of education. The development of Finland has come through investing in the education system.

Student performance comparison:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/opinion/columnists/guests/s_296415.html
http://nces.ed.gov/timss/TIMSS03Tables.asp?figure=1&Quest=3.

quote:

On the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA) mathematics tests, U.S. 15-year-olds tied for 27th out of 39, outscoring students of such systems as Turkey, Mexico and Tunisia. In 1995, on the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS), U.S. students ranked in the top half of the distribution, which included more developing countries, but showed mixed performance gains compared to other nations taking the tests.
The usual response in the United States is to ignore such results.

quote:

If the performance of U.S. students were to reach the middle of that of European students (still noticeably below the top), according to historical data, the U.S. economy could realize a half of 1 percent boost in its annual growth rate. Half of 1 percent sounds like a small difference, but it is in fact a very large number. The United States currently has a GDP per capita of $38,000. A half percent of additional annual growth would lift this by $2,000 per person after just ten years. In fact, the United States has achieved its economic position by outstripping the rest of the world in growth over the twentieth century
I agree with IronBear,
that this thread looks like national flagwaving in the face of everyone else.
There is no need to shout love the US and keep your mouth shut about what you think we can do better, or get the phuck out.
I personally don't know a country I'd rather be living in; well maybe Finland if it weren't so cold and far away from the rest of my family, lol, BUT that does in no way mean I will stand and shout about being the happiest human on the plannet while giving the finger to anyone else.

It is perfectly legitimate (and legal up to this point) to say the US is wonderful because of the aggregate multiculticultural gene pool and brain power it possesses, and it is less than wonderful in other aspects, largely related to it's history and folks holding on to ignorance as if they'd be lost by learning something new from someone who is doing it better than we are. M

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 3:56:38 PM

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At last.. Thank you! thank you! thank you.... For the record I'm always in deep ship with half of my family and friends for being so pro US.. I just also have pride in Aussie too....

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 4:10:35 PM

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Was there any point in posting this thread at all? The original poster doesn't really want anyone to answer the question, just to endorse what he already believes is the answer. Saying "don't balance the good with the bad" is a cover-all policy akin to Monty Python's "What have the Romans ever done for us?" sketch.

I read somewhere that almost 80% of Americans don't leave America their whole lives. Which means the vast majority are relying on other Americans to tell them what the outside world is really like. How would you genuinely know if America was so good if you'd never been anywhere else?

I've lived in the USA but happen to prefer England. And you could argue that practically everything good on the entire planet - including America - originated here.

I honestly have never met a people like Americans who spend so much time trying to convince themselves they're "the best nation on Earth".

If you genuinely believed you were, you would stop trying to convince yourselves and simply accept it.

< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 4/21/2006 4:11:59 PM >

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 4:25:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

For all those critics of America and U.S. policies, perhaps you could list here those nations that have been more beneficial to people outside their borders than the United States has been.

Your absolutely right that the US have been very beneficial to lots of people outside its borders, probably more than most other countries. However, that is only half the picture, as on the other hand, I can also think of hardly any country that has been more detrimental to people outside its borders. The fact that the US have done many good things does not erase the bad, it merely means that it's not all completely black and white.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 4:52:23 PM

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Both the US and France claim to have invented freedom and the right of the individual in the 18th century but western democracy comes from the northern Germanic tribes of Europe. You can see it's development in the place names of England. The sylable 'ing' in place names such as Darlington mean gathering place where the people would debate. Freedom took a major step under Henry II when he divided the judiciary from the executive, the first kingdom to do such a thing. Then the barons insisted on putting a clause in the Magna Carta saying all men should be judged by their peers etc etc.

By the time of the American war of independence which was not about tax, since colonists didn't pay tax but about the British imposed proclaimation line which was set up to stop indian land being occupied by land hungry settlers. This was protected by the regiments that were freed up after the victory over the French in Canada which got rid of the threat to the colonies in the north. The Brits wanted the colonists to pay for this because Britain had spent so much money protecting the colonies in that war.

The truth of the matter is that most colonists had more freedom under the British than they had under the new regime in Washington and the American economy took 50 years to get back to the GDP it had under the British so it wasn't as if the Brits were bleeding the colonists. The reality was that the colonies had grown up into a state and wanted their independence no matter what, even if it was independence from the most organised, free and judicial country in the world at the time.

The flag waving doesn't hold up to even the most superficial scrutiny.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 4:55:14 PM

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Oh come on. It comes from Athens. No, wait, it comes from Britain. No, wait, it comes from the Iroquois.

It doesn't "come" from anywhere. There are many different kinds of democracies in the world, and they all have many different sources. This idea of scavenging back through the past and trying to find the "root" of some modern thing we cherish is back-asswards history. It's not the way the world works.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Both the US and France claim to have invented freedom and the right of the individual in the 18th century but western democracy comes from the northern Germanic tribes of Europe.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

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