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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 5:04:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Oh come on. It comes from Athens. No, wait, it comes from Britain. No, wait, it comes from the Iroquois.

It doesn't "come" from anywhere. There are many different kinds of democracies in the world, and they all have many different sources. This idea of scavenging back through the past and trying to find the "root" of some modern thing we cherish is back-asswards history. It's not the way the world works.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Both the US and France claim to have invented freedom and the right of the individual in the 18th century but western democracy comes from the northern Germanic tribes of Europe.

If democracy springs out of fresh air, why did it take such a strong hold in the west and not in any other culture?

Why did female emancipation start in the west?

Western democracy can be traced from the northern Germanic tribes and there is absolutely no evidence of any imported ideas from Greece. Ancient Greek democracy was so democratic it was really a club for the boys and the great philosophers were happy to discuss great ideas while justifying why slaves should build Athens around them.

Read Prof. Norman Stone for starters.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 5:14:38 PM

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Don't be patronizing. There are people on CM who have read quite a lot.

Have you ever heard of the Iroquois? Are you aware that the framers of the Constitution CONSCIOUSLY borrowed from Iroquois political culture?

If not, I can recommend some highly informative books to read.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Read Prof. Norman Stone for starters.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 5:19:32 PM

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Just for the flag waving fraternity and I apologize to everyone else if this seems over the top but the US was built on genocide. Ulyses Grant had a starvation program to clear the land of native Americans. Slavery and black civil rights has not been a great issue on which the US can hold its head up.

Take any country you care and you can shoot down its national myths. Patriotism is for suckers. It is the way the governments con you into supporting foreign policies such as ill thought out illegal wars and supporting corrupt regimes just to get the natural resources of a particular country.

I have ties on both sides of the pond and you can rip the sanctimonius flag waving crap to pieces whatever country is doing the flag waving.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 6:33:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Just for the flag waving fraternity and I apologize to everyone else if this seems over the top but the US was built on genocide. Ulyses Grant had a starvation program to clear the land of native Americans. Slavery and black civil rights has not been a great issue on which the US can hold its head up.

Take any country you care and you can shoot down its national myths. Patriotism is for suckers. It is the way the governments con you into supporting foreign policies such as ill thought out illegal wars and supporting corrupt regimes just to get the natural resources of a particular country.

I have ties on both sides of the pond and you can rip the sanctimonius flag waving crap to pieces whatever country is doing the flag waving.

LOL, back to normal. Point out the bad ignore the good. Thanks, enlightening.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 9:11:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
This thread has the odour of The US v Every One Else, with every nation being second class compared to the US.. There was at one time when this attitude was prevelent in many posts accross the boards in CM and I will state now what i stated then (and upset the Mods) that if your citizens who are by numbers the majority of CM want CM to be a predominantly US site and then just bloody well say so, I'm reasonable sure that it would be possibl to either split CM into Us Cm and non USCM or even to locate suitable people to form a non US site mirroring CM..... Realy, I don't give a shit, I probably won't be around here mush in the near future of at least on the boards.. But iu am echoing the sentements of those who maeesge me daily or get me on a secure IM or private email...........

Hold on there, IronBear. Nothing in my original post was intended to put down anyone else's country. Please don't take it that way. I absolutely love the fact that we get people posting here from around the world. I think it gives us useful perspectives. I particularly welcome your contributions.

I guess it's time to say something more about my motivations in starting this post. Like it or not, the United States gets attacked in words by people around the world who do it thoughtlessly. Criticism is one thing, and many good criticisms can be made -- any mature person knows they can be made about that person's own country and others. But it isn't hard to see the malice just under the surface of some comments on these boards and elsewhere.

To me, that was water off a ducks back before, but since 9/11 I find those attacks both insulting to the country I love and useful to its terrorist enemies. One of the chief things America has on its side in these kinds of discussions or debates are certain FACTS about what it is and what it's done. It's useful for everyone everywhere, American or not, to remember these FACTS.

And the biggest fact among them is that NO other nation has done so much for humanity over the course of that nation's existence than the United States. Most nations are too small to have been able to do that, many are too new and on a per capita basis some may well do better than we do overall.

But my point is that once you recognize that so much good has come to the rest of the world from this country as a government and as a society, it's kind of hard for anyone, even the half-rational, to actually hate this country -- at least if there's any value to that person at all.

That's my point.

quote:

I, like may others here who are not US residents get tired having the concept that the USA is the center of the universe rammed down our throats.

I think that's an exaggeration. I could just as easily say that I'm tired of having the concept of the USA as the Great Satan rammed down our throats. Look at the posts in the threads and you'll see it. In that atmosphere, defending the United States is what you'd expect from people who love their country.

quote:

I've lost count of the technology and inventions originating in Australia which because of an inept Government and that Aussied have been too lazy about investing in Australia, heve endee up in US hands and never given credit as to the origins.

Welcome to the club. Examples of American ingenuity now in the hands of others who are beating us at our own game: automobiles, electronics, and the game of Soduko (invented by an American, ignored by us, picked up by the Japanese -- bless 'em -- and reimported back here under a Japanese name).

quote:

Sometimes it is time to go softly, softly and get out of people's faces. Good diplomacy allows for face saving and retention of national pride rather than the larger than life brashness

Not when you're under attack. It amazes me how people outside this country think they can trash us -- really attack us, not just criticize -- and get shocked when Americans get angry at it. You're not one of those who attack us IronBear, and I really don't mind criticism from someone who respects us or, as you do, loves us, but when you're under rhetorical attack, you bring out the big rhetorical guns, that's all.

quote:

I am also proud of my Aussie heritage,

And have every right to be, too.

quote:

not of the Australoiua today which has become a lap dog for the US administration but for where we came from and out traditional way of life which is all but gone for good........ Guess I'll be moving to either Canada or Southern Ireland...

I don't think he's a lapdog. I think he's simply allied with us. You know more about it than I do, and I don't know enough to debate what the Australian government's done wrong in allying itself with the U.S. or supporting the War on Terror, but I wonder what the difference is supposed to be between a good ally and a lapdog.

One last point: Even acknowledging all the benefits America has given to the world, we deserve nothing back for it except a fair hearing in the court of public opinion, and that's all I ask for. It certainly doesn't mean we're right on any particular topic and it doesn't mean we haven't done plenty of bad things, including harm to others. It also doesn't mean that other nations aren't valuable or have the potential to do even greater things.

When an expert witness is called to the stand, the lawyer usually will first ask the witness about his credentials, then get testimony about what's directly related to the trial. The jury is not meant to take anything the witness says as gospel truth, but to take into account the witness's expertise and use their common sense. Sometimes character witnesses are also called to the stand to testify about how trustworthy some other witness is. Well, when the U.S. is called to testify, the jury of world opinion should know it's character.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 9:26:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fullofgrace
even if we ARE better than everybody else (which i don't really believe) that doesn't make us spectacularly wonderful and it doesn't mean that we don't have problems that we CAN and AREN'T fixing.

What a sour attitude. Just hypothetically, what would be the proper attitude if we'd done more than any other country on the face of the earth to benefit mankind? Perhaps a little less sour attitude and a little acknowledgement on your part? Frankly, it's partly attitudes like yours that made me start the thread.

quote:

i don't know. i just find this game rather childish, personally.

Maybe I missed the post where you found attacks on America foolish? No, I just checked your posts. Full, you lend your voice only to criticize when someone is making a point in favor of the United States.

I wonder if you think, as many do, that patriotism is something to be uncomfortable about. I used to think that until I thought about it.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 9:27:26 PM

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I would have to say the Sate of Confusion. Since the dawn of time the state of confusion has resolved some serious issues. She has paved over such problems as over population, religion, politics, disease, and by and large has have employed more MODS than any other nation. She has handed the mighty erasers to the MODS to help quell coups, uprisings, and petty bickering worldwide. The State of Confusion has allied itself with the little known, but oh so sneaky, WWW and has enabled people to step into alien environments (doctors office & lawyers office) and bewilder them with confusing facts and strange concepts, vaulting the professionals into the general populace of the State of Confusion. The State of Confusion is by far the largest growing nation on this world and, I suspect, the universe. Now that this is clear, all hail riotgirl, queen of the State of Confusion.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 9:32:43 PM

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quote:

but if you really dont like our country, get the hell out.

its not that easy, i've fucking tried. Maybe you should learn abit more about immigration before you spout it out. Its not that easy.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 9:35:41 PM

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Any country that colonizes the world takes its assets as well as its cultural deficits with them. Someone earlier mentioned the British Empire and its positive effect on the world around them as they went merrily along liberating and educating the "savages"of the world (note my snide and sarcastic use of the word savage). The sun never set on the British empire, and as they civilized places as diverse as India and Africa they did bring literacy with them as well as their system of government (let you decide if this was a good thing or bad). Other colonizers did this too, America came rather late to the scene, but have steadily been catching up as an Empire in the tradition of Rome.

Rome also did much to spread much technology to the world but I doubt all the people they conquered would think this was a good thing... Although some did. I think it is the same thing with the griping about America, people want the economic capital that US companies bring, but they dont want their lives changed or their cultures altered, and like with Rome that is next to impossible, especially when our military is stationed all over the world, just as it was in Roman times

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 9:41:08 PM

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quote:

Certainly a great period of their history and a great benefit to the world, but I'm looking for total benefits over time. I'd say that the U.K. certainly has been one of the nations that's benefited more people outside it's borders than nearly any other.

yeah i'll second the nomination of England and i'm too lazy to start going through their history. Granted they've done alot of crap, like destroy culture after culture.. but on the whole.. they're awesome. But its so hard to migrate there.. you practically have ot marry some one. i've a great canidate tho. =)

And of course, if you want to go around comparing the US to 3rd world countries, the US will win every time. Try comparing the US to another country on the same level. Winning against a 3rd world country.. really isnt saying much.

i;d nominate places like Japan, Germany, Canada, Australia, Heck even Tibet.

i've a question to lay out. How many of you folks that want to say " America is the best" have actually been outside of america.. or even your own square mile. My experience, is those that are so hearty in the America is the best department have generally never been out their own home town.. much less around the world.

Hong kong is an awesome place too. But i doubt any of you have been there to even contemplate it. Alot of ppl love Japan. Anyone been there? i know we have alot who live in Australia.. anyone one of you Americans been there?

And yes, i can actually say i've been to all of these places and actually lived abroad. Hell, i was born in Japan. Yeah, i've actually been out the US, i've seen other countries and i can say there are a hell of a lot of other places i'd rather live then the US, but of course i dont count 3rd world countries.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 9:47:59 PM

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quote:

I'm reasonable sure that it would be possibl to either split CM into Us Cm and non USCM

Can i join the non US CM as i'd rather be with the people on that side. Far as i know.. and well i know first hand experience from a vast majority of ppl around the world (hong kong is a major melting pot.. or was) That the majority of ppl around the world, think americans are idiots, loud mouths, and rude. We arent liked and i've seen the reasoning, and witness first hand why. Quite honestly, when i had to move back to the states, i was soooooo disapointed. My friends, who werent american laughed at me and my thoughts were "oh great i have to go back there" Plus alot of derogatory words as well - )

When it comes to the great US has done.. i can back it up with just as much crap its done. If not outwiegh it, but you'd have to give me time to get my facts/info straight

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 9:56:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Great Britain, for the basically single-handed abolition of the international slave trade. This was a unique action, based on nothing but a sense of moral outrage. It benefitted Great Britatin not at all (after all she controlled the bulk of the world's supply of potential slaves), and in fact caused serious economic disruptions in many of her colonies. Never before or since has a great power taken a similar unilateral action, to state once and for all "We don't care about your rights as a sovereign nation, what you are doing is Wrong, and we mean to prevent you or anybody else from doing it, and we will spare no expense, and use every resource at our disposal to do so."
They spent huge sums doing this, and they used their fleet and army to enforce their ban on trafficing in human beings

Excellent, excellent point. The U.K. actually has contributed an enormous amount to the world, and it's one of the most unusually productive nations on the planet for worldwide benefits. Just consider:
-- India's current democracy is a result of what it got from the U.K.
-- Not only have entirely new nations sprung from the U.K. (New Zealand, Australia, Canada, the U.S., etc.) but they're among the strongest democracies in the world and incredibly productive and successful in many ways, not just economic.
-- The Industrial Revolution got its start in the U.K., which has made the whole world more productive economically.
-- The U.K. has, in general (not always, but in general), promoted order over chaos, peace over war, justice over tyranny.
-- It has made enormous contributions to the arts (especially literature, which is the best in the world, bar none), the sciences (from Watt's steam engine to Farraday, Darwin and Watson & Crick).
-- And it isn't for nothing that people refer to the "mother of parliaments." Representative government and liberty were probably its chief contributions to the world and much of the rest followed from it.

I would say that the U.S. contributions in saving the world from the Axis powers and Communism; improving the world economy both by example, some foreign aid and promoting free trade, all in the 20th century, along with the inventions that came out of the U.S. and the medical advances we've shared with the world have been more beneficial even than the U.K.'s contributions, but it's important to note that every contribution we've made was built on a foundation set into place by the U.K., which gave us examples in the areas of self government & freedom, trade and industry, statesmanship and many other things.

I also think China would be in the running as most beneficial nation to mankind over the course of that nations history. But I specifically left out benefits within that nation's borders. If I'd asked which nation benefited mankind as a whole (inside or outside its borders), then I think China may win. It provided perhaps the fairest government available on earth for more people for a longer period of time than anyone else.

I've heard in many places that China had the most advanced civilization in many respects up till about 1800, and that's probably largely attributable to having a pretty fair government. China's influence on other countries seem to have been largely limited to those nearest it, although inventions did leak out once in a while. I specifically tailored my question to leave out China in order to make a point about the U.S.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 10:04:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig
BUT that does in no way mean I will stand and shout about being the happiest human on the plannet while giving the finger to anyone else.

It is perfectly legitimate (and legal up to this point) to say the US is wonderful because of the aggregate multiculticultural gene pool and brain power it possesses, and it is less than wonderful in other aspects, largely related to it's history and folks holding on to ignorance as if they'd be lost by learning something new from someone who is doing it better than we are. M

Judging from your past posts, Blk, I don't think you're attacking me for starting this thread, and I don't even think you're referring to anyone in particular who's posted (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). If you were doing that, you'd be wildly exaggerating.

Instead, I think you're putting up a straw man to knock down. I've already explained why I don't think we're putting others down here. And we're not so much beating our chests as pointing out some relevant facts to America haters, which do exist and have been posting, even on this thread.

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 10:19:23 PM

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I misread something. Never mind.

< Message edited by DelightMachine -- 4/21/2006 10:36:07 PM >

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 10:41:52 PM

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Well, over the past few years the US has done a great job of shaming itself. Every country has its own history, much of which has its sordid aspects. Being from any particular country is no guarantee whatsoever as to the character any individual citizen. With those preliminaries out of the way, I'd say:
Countries worthy of emulation: Finland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Canada, Netherlands, New Zealand, Iceland, Switzerland.
Fairly together places needing some substantial tweaks: UK, Germany, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Slovenia, Australia
Countries I like for other reasons: Jamaica, Belize, Barbados, T&T, Guyana, Brazil, India
Countries I really wish would get their act together: USA and a whole slew of others....

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 10:45:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

quote:

ORIGINAL: fullofgrace
even if we ARE better than everybody else (which i don't really believe) that doesn't make us spectacularly wonderful and it doesn't mean that we don't have problems that we CAN and AREN'T fixing.

What a sour attitude. Just hypothetically, what would be the proper attitude if we'd done more than any other country on the face of the earth to benefit mankind? Perhaps a little less sour attitude and a little acknowledgement on your part? Frankly, it's partly attitudes like yours that made me start the thread.

the proper attitude, in my opinion, would be to focus on ourselves and not on ourselves in comparison to everyone else. i don't believe we've done more than any other country on the face of the earth to benefit mankind, and i DO acknowledge what we have done - but you're not asking me to do that in this thread. personally i felt the original post in this thread was just a snide attack at anyone who doesn't conform to your idea of patriotism. and i'm sorry, but i'm sick and tired of being condescended to because i don't conform to one person's idea of patriotism. doesn't mean i don't love my country, doesn't mean i don't think we've done some great things, but when you're shoving your blindness down my throat, i tend to vomit up exactly what you DON'T want to hear. it's the rebel in me.

quote:

i don't know. i just find this game rather childish, personally.

Maybe I missed the post where you found attacks on America foolish? No, I just checked your posts. Full, you lend your voice only to criticize when someone is making a point in favor of the United States.

I wonder if you think, as many do, that patriotism is something to be uncomfortable about. I used to think that until I thought about it.

actually, this is the FIRST political thread i have posted in, or maybe you didn't notice. and the only reason i posted in it was because i found it rather childish and irritating. has nothing to do with how i feel about the situation, really, just that, as i said before, i'm sick and tired of having other people's definitions of patriotism applied to me. this country has done good and bad, and i'm not one to ignore one in favor of the other - either way. however, i don't think this thread has anything to do with patriotism or with what america's done, i think it's pretty much a middle finger one up to every other country in the world, and i personally find that a) childish b) idiotic and c) condescending. and i don't think the fact that i'm not afraid to bring that up makes me any less patriotic.

but i digress. as far as the things we can and aren't fixing, as long as i'm watching my friends end up homeless in the streets with no help, as long as both of my parents are dead and i'm an 18 year old walking preexisting medical problem and pretty much living on scholarships, which makes it damn near impossible to get anything decent in terms of health care, as long as the welfare system isn't helping decent human beings who need it, as long as the government thinks it's more important to buy bombs than to feed its country's people, i will continue to criticize the us. doesn't mean i don't think we've done some good, just means that i'm sick and fucking tired of having to live out and watch people ignoring the bad every day.

< Message edited by fullofgrace -- 4/21/2006 10:51:40 PM >

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 10:55:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW
Was there any point in posting this thread at all? The original poster doesn't really want anyone to answer the question, just to endorse what he already believes is the answer.

You can read minds?

quote:

I read somewhere that almost 80% of Americans don't leave America their whole lives. Which means the vast majority are relying on other Americans to tell them what the outside world is really like. How would you genuinely know if America was so good if you'd never been anywhere else?

I've lived in the USA but happen to prefer England.

Nah, we just sit around amazed at how much good we've done. It's so stunning that we just have to sit back and wonder at it. That's why we're overweight.

quote:

And you could argue that practically everything good on the entire planet - including America - originated here.

And I did. Even before I read your snarky post. But origination doesn't mean you get all the credit for what other people have done after looking at your example, just some of it. Even franchisees get to keep most of their profits (if they've operated their business right).

And by the way, what a good chest-thumper you are! Glad to see you're at least a patriot for your own country, Brit.

quote:

I honestly have never met a people like Americans who spend so much time trying to convince themselves they're "the best nation on Earth".
If you genuinely believed you were, you would stop trying to convince yourselves and simply accept it.

What an incredibly sour attitude. There's a real undertone of malice just below the surface of your words.
Let's turn the tables and see how it sounds: I honestly have never met a group like the anti-Americans, especially in Europe, but also elsewhere and even in America, who spend so much time trying to put down the United States. If you genuinely believe there's so much to put down, you'd stop jabbering on about it, such as in the posts you've been making to this message board, and simply accept it. No one goes on about Nigeria like this, or about nearly any other country -- but there's always a constant drumbeat about the United States.

Actually, this thread was more for your benefit and that of a few others here than anyone else's. And it's less to convince anyone of how good we are than to just point out the obvious fact of how much good we've done.

You see, the difference between someone honestly criticizing this country and someone who hates it is that the critic will acknowledge the good as well as the bad. The hater won't.

Gotcha.

< Message edited by DelightMachine -- 4/21/2006 11:01:48 PM >

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 10:58:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine
Instead, I think you're putting up a straw man to knock down. I've already explained why I don't think we're putting others down here. And we're not so much beating our chests as pointing out some relevant facts to America haters, which do exist and have been posting, even on this thread.

If mine is a misrepresentation of your position, so too is your characterization of folks who criticize the US for doing some things "not as well as other countries" or "not as well as we could" as hating the US.

My response was not meant to attack you, but did find the thread to sound a little bit like chest thumping "arent we the best"? Apparently you were genuinely looking for info??? I especially love the folks who say "shut up or get out, lol." In some areas we are the best; in other areas we could improve a great deal (which is why I pasted some examples), and that is without even mentioning those times the US has been downright evil shhh. M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 4/21/2006 11:10:51 PM >

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RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 11:20:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cacodylic
Well, over the past few years the US has done a great job of shaming itself. Every country has its own history, much of which has its sordid aspects. Being from any particular country is no guarantee whatsoever as to the character any individual citizen. With those preliminaries out of the way, I'd say:
Countries worthy of emulation: Finland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Canada, Netherlands, New Zealand, Iceland, Switzerland.
Fairly together places needing some substantial tweaks: UK, Germany, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Slovenia, Australia
Countries I like for other reasons: Jamaica, Belize, Barbados, T&T, Guyana, Brazil, India
Countries I really wish would get their act together: USA and a whole slew of others....

All of which is completely beside the point of the question asked in the original post, in other words, what this thread is orginally about.

I notice a pattern in posts like this: Change the subject and attack from another angle rather than acknowledge the good that the U.S. has done. If you can't acknowledge it, then don't the rest of us have a right to think of you as unpatriotic (if you're an American) and anti-American wherever you come from?

And if you can't acknowledge the facts, why should the rest of us trust any of you?

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Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg

(in reply to cacodylic)

RE: List of countries that put America to shame - 4/21/2006 11:35:55 PM

Posts: 652
Joined: 1/21/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig
If mine is a misrepresentation of your position, so too is your characterization of folks who criticize the US for doing some things "not as well as other countries" or "not as well as we could" as hating the US.

Actually, I've made the distinction between critics and haters several times. If you missed it, here's a quote from what I posted just a few minutes before you did:

quote:

You see, the difference between someone honestly criticizing this country and someone who hates it is that the critic will acknowledge the good as well as the bad. The hater won't.

Take a look at some of the posts on this thread, and you'll see that. I specifically asked for people to nominate countries that have done more than the U.S. for the benefit of the world -- an exercise that, if anyone actually does it, will make them think about the good we've done, and some people just can't address the question. Some people just can't say that we've done a lot of good. Now does that sound like a critic or a hater to you?

quote:

My response was not meant to attack you, but did find the thread to sound a little bit like chest thumping "arent we the best"?

I find "aren't we awful" to be chest thumping too. But when the U.S. is being attacked, mentioning its good points isn't chest thumping, but an appropriate response, don't you think? I actually think I was rather restrained, since it took a while for me to write just a few paragraphs to outline the good that we've done.

quote:

Apparently you were genuinely looking for info???

If you look at my later posts, you'll see I was genuinely looking for a response, and I certainly had an agenda in mind and make no apologies for it. Acknowledging the good this country does should not be a problem for anyone. I notice that you were able to do it.

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Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

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